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With the arrival of 2.8, we took the opportunity to change the class Dopples, because we didn't find the current state of the Dopple summons to be satisfactory.

As a reminder, the Summon spell Dopple is obtained at 200 by all classes and, as its name suggests, allows you to summon a Dopple version of your class. Dopples have a lot of HP, are quite powerful, and use some of your spells.
We are unsatisfied with the current Dopples for the following reasons:

- The Dopple summon creates a wide power gap between level 199 and level 200. As long and laborious it is to go from one to the other, it's quite common for players to be "stuck" at 199 for a very long time. In this context, it's not a good idea to have a massive difference in power between these two levels.

Dopeuls
"Hmm, yeah... I have to agree, yours is bigger..."


- The class Dopples that are currently in the game are uneven. Some Dopples currently have the advantage of powerful class spells, allowing them to turn the tide of battle, where other Dopples have only little impact on the fight.
- Dopples greatly impact class balancing. The problem stemmed in part from the previous point, but some classes, once they obtained their Dopple, were considered much better than level 199 (for example the Pandawa Dopple, which had Dopple Stain, a very powerful spell), where other classes got almost no benefit from summoning their Dopple.
- Dopples make it possible to circumvent the cooldown of some spells. Cooldowns are an important part of the spell system that has been determined by the game developers. When Dopples have their own version of a buffing spell, they can cast those buffs on their summoner, allowing the summoner to have the spell effect more often than expected. For example, Enutrofs can have Acceleration more frequently than expected, and Iops could benefit from stacking Power. This highly effected the balancing of spells.
- Dopples are currently too unpredictable. Like all summons, Dopples depend on artificial intelligence and are therefore not absolutely controlled by their summoner. Most summons have one to two spells and thus retain very predictable behavior for those with enough playing experience. Dopples had four. That makes it almost impossible to know what to expect at the beginning of their turn; it could either be catastrophic or surprisingly good (with a slight preference for disasters).

Dopeuls
"Summons for the summoners!" was the rallying cry of the Osamodas...


- Summoned Dopples are too strong. With more than 1,000 HP and 30% resistance to all elements, it often takes several rounds to kill a Dopple (a summon that can usually fight at long ranges), and it is generally not profitable to do so as things stand now. And additionally, giving a powerful summon to certain classes (like Iops) does somewhat conflict with their class roles.
 
That is why we decided to remedy this problem by reviewing Dopples to respond better to our expectations. We follow several guidelines to guide our changes:

- Dopples should not be necessary to turn the tide of battle. That is why we have decided to withdraw their spells with powerful effects and those that can have a significant impact in a fight. In short, Dopple spells can no longer inflict Gravity state, unbewitch a player and/or inflict erosion. All that remainsare spells with low AP / MP theft, which we have intentionally left, knowing that Dopples' wisdom is very low.

- Summoned Dopple should no longer possible to bypass cooldowns. All boosting spells have been removed from summoned Dopples to avoid allowing level 200 characters to have twice the duration of their spells and thus circumvent the constraints that we have defined in their base.

- Summoned Dopples should be more reliable. To do this we have reduced the number of spells to 3. It not only makes it easier to predict their behavior, but it also made them more specialized than before. Most Dopple pushback spells have also been removed, to avoid allowing an enemy to escape from a lock, a glyph, a wall, etc.

Dopeuls
Brigitte never found her Dopple to be unbalanced,
but her objectivity on the subject was questionable.


- Summoned Dopples must be able to inflict damage that is balanced compared to other Dopples. Some Dopples had some very low 'firepower' in comparison to some other Dopples, which were much more powerful. We tried to address this issue with characteristic bonuses and fixed damage, so that all quantities inflict damage nearby.
- Dopples should be more flexible to use. The AP cost of Summoning of Dopple, 8, was prohibitive and encouraged players to cast the spell when they had nothing else to do. Reducing the cost to 6, Dopples are now easier to summon. This change is consistent with the proportional reduction in their life.
 
We hope you understand better now why we wanted to change the class Dopples and hope that, like us, you will now find the fights more enjoyable, now that these summons have less influence on the course of a fight!
 
-Seyroth

Thanks to our volunteer translators for their help getting this Devblog out on time!
By: [Seyroth], on 7 September 2012
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CunningFiend 13 September 2012 - 05:40
In regards to the replies I've gotten (and some posts in general), I'll say this:

Are you interested in Dofus being a "rock, paper, scissors" game in PvP?

In PvM: What do you think about needing specific classes in your team to beat a particular dungeon?

The truth is this: if you further strengthen the already-strong abilities in classes, the characters specialize way too much in those abilities.

The "good" dopples give buffs which enforce the strengths of the class too much.

That's why you can't just buff, buff, buff.

I'm glad Dofus allows (or demands) more versatility in its characters, these days. The versatility is fun to me.

Where is the fun in spamming the same 2 or 3 spells over and over again for 200 levels?

Do you enjoy playing shallow, one-dimensional characters?

How do you feel, as a single accounter, about not being able to contribute in a group because your limited specialties don't apply to the battle situation?

How do you feel, as a multi-clienter, that you need to make another alt because you can't get past a certain dungeons without its specialties?

Would you deeply enjoy only running the same 3-5 dungeons over and over because they are the only ones in which your specialties are useful?

Why should even having a dopple be essential to play a particular class well?

By keeping the current "OP" dopples at their current status and "upgrading" the others, you only enforce a particular class' specialties.

It's very fair that all dopples will be similar: they'll do low-to-moderate damage, and inflict only minor effects (if any at all). That's balancing. The dopple balancing is a nerf to some class' dopples, and a buff to other dopples. That's balancing. No individual class will be able to summon multiple dopples for multiple buffs and obtain godlike buffs. That's balancing. Classes with more buff spells (especially AoE buffs) will have less advantages from summoning a dopple than the classes with very few buff spells will, as weaker dopples benefit less from any buffs. That is also balancing.

People cry for "balancing" all of the time. Here it is. You got it. Grats.

As I said, making certain classes overspecialize in particular abilities is not "balancing". Having particular classes overpowered in any class-specific aspects creates imbalance, not balance.

As for the arguments calling the "dopple nerf" an abomination because it makes getting Lvl.200 less enticing: ...So? Whoever said that getting Lvl.200 is the point of playing the game? It's a personal choice, and if it's your choice, then it's your problem. The philosophy of "life begins at 200" is false -- the life begins when you decide to enjoy the game. If you need 7.3 billion exp before you can enjoy the game, you're likely playing the wrong class or playing the wrong game.

Whether or not any particular nerfs have caused more complaints than they deserve is a matter of personal opinion, and I've stated mine. But read what I wrote, again:

"In 6+ years of playing this game, I have yet to encounter a single nerf that was actually worse than the level of complaints it generated."

Note that I didn't write "amount" of complaints. It's perfectly fine for people to complain, but some people take it to the next level. I'll throw in some lovely quotes pertaining to this topic:

"this is a stupid change, whoever thought of this should just go bang his head in the wall as hard as he can."

"If you dumbasses want to rebalance something, rebalance that overpowered piece of crap."

"Ankama this is the most stupid thing you have done thus far... that seems to be all you morons care about."

"Well Ankama.. Well fucking done."

"~stop adding bullshit and stop nerfing"

There's never a need to be rude, and there's nothing productive about being downright insulting. If you've voiced your complaints in a civil manner, then my quote doesn't apply to you. There's nothing wrong with complaining, but there's no reason to make it sound like you're being accosted by a large cellmate.
xxsem 13 September 2012 - 04:31
this problem/issue, I believe is a easy fix. Give us an option to control our dopples, than in addition to being able to control our dopples, allow us to select only three spells for use. Lastly, increase the damage, OMG.
Electricotter 13 September 2012 - 03:18

(Revil-Nunor @ 13 September 2012 02:45) *

In 6+ years of playing this game, I have yet to encounter a single nerf that was actually worse than the level of complaints it generated.
I don't think people complained enough about the Enutrof chest nerf. And in many cases it isn't the fact that things are being nerfed, it is the way that Ankama goes about it which ticks people off. I wouldn't mind having the dopples changed, but instead of having them all nerfed, how about boosting them all to the level of the strongest dopple?

Why is the knee jerk reaction always to make things weaker?
Because cast limits and cooldowns are in place for a reason.

It would be one thing to ask for higher stats on a dopple.
For certain dopples to lock better or compliment their caster more effectively, however to ask for every dopple to be put on a pedestal is erroneous to me.

Giving the Enu dopple Ghostly?
You play an Osa. You know how the Wyrm can be.
This just isn't a good idea.
It would be one of the few ways to match up with the power of the Pandawa dopple though.

Why should the Eni dopple toss around heals with its inferior stats when it can damage enemies instead, allowing for the Eni to heal?
Give the Eni dopple high Agi and +Air damage with Wounding Word. This would add something to the dopple which WoS just couldn't do.
Adding Regen Word would certainly be interesting however.

Anyways, we at the Zenith, wish to see classes elevated not torn down.
This is something all of our class balance threads derived from.
It all stemmed from us talking about what we felt the worst spell of every class was and instead of talking about nerf nerf nerf, we went buff buff buff.

However 'nerfs' DO need to happen.
A 'nerf' is different from a nerf however.
This IS class balancing, not nerfing.
Call it what it is?
If the dopples being changed in this way is such a 'game changer', I would posit this only
places emphasis on how important of a change it was to make.

It isn't black and white.
You can't just slap Iop's Wrath, Acceleration, Summoning of Crackler, and other strong spells on each dopple and call that balanced.

Frigost 2 dungeons, the ones that used to be so hard only a slim minority of our community could beat them, they were devised that way to counter how overpowered players are.

I am not saying that players should be declawed and defanged, but certain steps need to be taken so that each class can have a somewhat reasonable and uniform level of power and or functionality.

It is evident that the community feels strongly about this topic and we are listening, as evidenced by our chiming in here.

However do not treat our debate for a dismissal of your feelings and opinions.
But it is integral that we try to keep in mind there IS a grand scheme.

This is a two way street mind you.
Us as players have our grand scheme in mind.
The Devs also have their grand scheme in mind.

It is our responsibility to try and consolidate these two.

So please keep this in mind when it comes to how constructive the communication of your opinions are.



RMT 13 September 2012 - 02:51
@CunningFiend

I was also going to add the cast limits on spells, the removal of stacking spell effects, the enu unbewitch nerf, the enu chest nerf, the min range nerfs on many spells, and the weapon skill reduction nerfs, etc.. These were HUGE nerfs and would definitely warrant outcry as these were MAJOR changes.

I hear ya on the dopple nerf, maybe it's not as huge, but to say all these other nerfs resulted in unwarranted complaints? I can't agree with you on that one

Every update continues to weaken character abilities. I think that's the critical underlying concern that many of us are just begging not to happen.
Revil-Nunor 13 September 2012 - 02:45

In 6+ years of playing this game, I have yet to encounter a single nerf that was actually worse than the level of complaints it generated.
I don't think people complained enough about the Enutrof chest nerf. And in many cases it isn't the fact that things are being nerfed, it is the way that Ankama goes about it which ticks people off. I wouldn't mind having the dopples changed, but instead of having them all nerfed, how about boosting them all to the level of the strongest dopple?

Why is the knee jerk reaction always to make things weaker?
surgray 13 September 2012 - 01:39
I only posted here with some actual numbers of what a Dopple is doing to show it isn't the end of the world, they are not completely ruined except for buffing the summoner and stain, etc.

I personally agree with Seyroth's reasoning and I objectively understand that very few people are happy with it. I have no intention of telling anyone to stop complaining, just stating my own argument to give people more information to form their own opinion of how bad it really is.

Many disagree with the very core of the concept and that is fair enough, no one can disprove that and so it hardly matters if others see it differently.
CunningFiend 13 September 2012 - 01:27
In 6+ years of playing this game, I have yet to encounter a single nerf that was actually worse than the level of complaints it generated.

I remember when I was much younger, seeing my sister walk through the kitchen; a sheet of paper had been stuck to the refrigerator with two magnets, but one of the magnets had fallen off. As a result, one side of the sheet of paper was still stuck to the fridge, and the other side of the paper stuck straight out. My sister was walking with her head down, and didn't see the protruding sheet of paper. She walked into it, and her immediate reaction was: "Ow!" ...Then she stopped, and looked at what she'd walked into -- and immediately rolled her eyes and face-palmed herself, out of sheer embarrassment. It's not like she even got a paper-cut; it was just an overblown knee-jerk reaction to something completely harmless.

In this case, the complainers are like my sister and the dopple nerf is like the sheet of paper. Come on, people. At least say that you're just practicing for a situation which warrants legitimate complaints. I'll buy that excuse.
Revil-Nunor 12 September 2012 - 23:32

(kakisuka @ 12 September 2012 23:26) *

(Revil-Nunor @ 12 September 2012 20:52) *

(surgray @ 12 September 2012 20:47) *
Using Dopples for Stain and the like is completely broken, of course people have been justifying the 8 AP cost for those reasons. I have 2 of the most overpowered myself (Pandawa and Sadida) and I would cast them explicitly to abuse these abilities. Just because mobs don't complain doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy for the game. This was a nerf for some, sure. It was well deserved and with it we get an overhaul that gives us all certain different advantages in compensation.

I didn't say they can absorb more damage, just that they have a useful function for a more sane AP cost without greatly favouring a few classes over the rest. Every Dopple has about the same strength while still retaining the flavour of their class.

A level 200 is still stronger than a 199 through their summon and their final level 6 spell. It might not be worth the xp grind for some but the advantage still exists.
So you think that nerfing them like this is better than making the ones with less use stronger? Ie: adding ghostly shovel to the Enutrof dopple or adding healing to the Eni dopple?

There should be a significant power gap between 199 and 200, with this nerf there no longer is.
With most classes the dopples are kind of stupid. Why do the Panda and Sadida dopples have to be that much more powerful?
Right, so what I was saying is, why not make all the dopples as powerful as that instead of making them all as lousy as the eni/enu ones?
kakisuka 12 September 2012 - 23:26

(Revil-Nunor @ 12 September 2012 20:52) *

(surgray @ 12 September 2012 20:47) *
Using Dopples for Stain and the like is completely broken, of course people have been justifying the 8 AP cost for those reasons. I have 2 of the most overpowered myself (Pandawa and Sadida) and I would cast them explicitly to abuse these abilities. Just because mobs don't complain doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy for the game. This was a nerf for some, sure. It was well deserved and with it we get an overhaul that gives us all certain different advantages in compensation.

I didn't say they can absorb more damage, just that they have a useful function for a more sane AP cost without greatly favouring a few classes over the rest. Every Dopple has about the same strength while still retaining the flavour of their class.

A level 200 is still stronger than a 199 through their summon and their final level 6 spell. It might not be worth the xp grind for some but the advantage still exists.
So you think that nerfing them like this is better than making the ones with less use stronger? Ie: adding ghostly shovel to the Enutrof dopple or adding healing to the Eni dopple?

There should be a significant power gap between 199 and 200, with this nerf there no longer is.
With most classes the dopples are kind of stupid. Why do the Panda and Sadida dopples have to be that much more powerful?
quickben 12 September 2012 - 22:59
"I have 2 of the most overpowered myself (Pandawa and Sadida) and I would cast them explicitly to abuse these abilities."

So let me see if I'm translating this otherwise incomprehensible drivel correctly. One reaches 199, then, in essence, must replay the game in it's entirety with regards to experience points, and you believe that receiving a heretofore just reward for accomplishing so daunting an endeavor is "abuse".

You sur, have quaffed far too much kool-aid, or take this game far less seriously than the peonies who are not zenithified. Perhaps both. The tallies are in; we hate it. We pay the bills, and yet for some unfathomable reason are being told to go suck eggs and like it. And in the name of all that's reasonable stop referring to a nerf as "re-balancing". That's akin to taking away half a Marines munitions and calling it a "backpack lessening load redeployment." Intelligent people despise wishy-washy weasel words. A spade, is a spade.