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Punishment is too overpowered

By Patwick November 26, 2012, 08:19:04

the spell is too overpowered in pvp 1v1, if they are on 50% it deals 1500 on me cri = 1800
below 30%ish still does 900 damage, if they are on 35% hitpoints they can steal hitpoints back using sunshade or assault and be on 45% and that deals 1200, they have 50% res from croum+ shields, if your cc normally does 800 damage it will deal 400 only + fixed res they have. Not only that everytime i hit them they will get buffed a sac got buffed with 200x 5 agility and hit me for 800 with sunshade on 50% air res. Not only do i need air res i also need neutral res % for punishment. Which is just too much in pvp.

Sacs are good in pvm and group pvp, why do they excel in every area? dealing damage, tanking damage, support allies, map manipulation, how can you avoid punishment end game if they have 6mp and 13 range from attraction +6 range thats 25 cells you have to get away from. My sac is level 77 and deals 900 damage at my level thats one shotting people at my level in 1v1 pvp and 2 turn cd, even wrath requires a 3 turn interval and it even tells you when wrath is available, punishment dealing 1500 x2 in just one fight is already good game.

First punishment hits you on 50% deals 1500 damage they transport themselves away, then waits 2 turns, while you have to deal with croum + shield, and they can BTM their summons, and then transport back and punish you for 1500 again.

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Score : 1814

Heh at least it isn't like it used to be.

Yes it is strong, but I don't feel it is overpowered. The first half of the fight, the sacrier will be doing sub par damage anyway, he needs you to damage him to get strong. The best thing to do it just blitz him through the middle part of his hp. If that isn't possible, most classes have a way to avoid damage for a turn.

In my opinion it is just something you need to develop a strategy to get past.

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Score : 178

its hard to blitz him when his on 65%, because 50% res against your element your not doing over 400 per cc, and range spells would be even less than that, if your gona try blitz him the sac is pretty much saying " yeah do that buff me and i will attack with sunshade get me back to 45% and punish you.

His Resistance: lets just say im int:
10% neutral 10% earth 36% fire 10% water 10% air 26% from croum
fixed: 30 neutral 30 earth 54 fire 30 water 30 air 24 from major defender
+ Firedala Shield 25% or Briefs shield
50% fire res + 54 fixed res and maybe additional crit res if they have any

Then you have to deal with the 2:1 Vitality ratio
lets say your on 4000 hp they are on 5500 hp
x2 1500 punishments at 2750 hitpoints is already a game winner.

Any sac with good gear, a croum and a decent rank will never lose in 1v1 pvp if they pick the right resists
you need to play catch up with hitpoints first because of the 2:1 ratio next you have to avoid a 50% punishment which still deals decent damage at 35% and 65%, deals 500 for 4ap even at 25%, has 2 turn cool down and is practically unavoidable unless your a cra with 6mp and can steal 4 mp a turn and can block los every turn.

Spells that originally did insane damage were nerfed: Fate of ecaflip crit did 1k+ per crit, Rekop which did 1.2k per hit, Lethal Attack, Iops Wrath, i think its only fair that punish gets a nerf too (all which required a critical hit to deal insane damage except for Iops wrath which doesnt have a 13+ range spell to support it, only has a 5 cell jump?

There is also no other way to improve my gear any further i have 100mk in kamas and 2 other 12/5 sets just sitting in my inventory, with all these new limits with range and mp and up coming nerfs for my class i will be steald even more against this class

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Score : 237

1v1 PvP will never be balanced, you will always get certain classes beating certain others. I've played against Cra's that can easily take 4-5 mp off me a turn, Xelor's that reduce me to 2 or 3 ap and Feca's that cast immunity or spell rebound all on turns where I would normally cast punishment.
The players that I normally win against are those that run in and weapon spam because they don't seem to have a clue about tactics.

As for those Sac's out there that have those incredible resists I suggest you sit there and try to work out just how many kamas they've invested into those sets/equips because I bet you'll find it's a lot more than the average player can afford.

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Score : 1386
Patwick|2012-11-26 08:19:04
the spell is too overpowered in pvp 1v1, if they are on 50% it deals 1500 on me cri = 1800
below 30%ish still does 900 damage, if they are on 35% hitpoints they can steal hitpoints back using sunshade or assault and be on 45% and that deals 1200, they have 50% res from croum+ shields, if your cc normally does 800 damage it will deal 400 only + fixed res they have. Not only that everytime i hit them they will get buffed a sac got buffed with 200x 5 agility and hit me for 800 with sunshade on 50% air res. Not only do i need air res i also need neutral res % for punishment. Which is just too much in pvp.

Sacs are good in pvm and group pvp, why do they excel in every area? dealing damage, tanking damage, support allies, map manipulation, how can you avoid punishment end game if they have 6mp and 13 range from attraction +6 range thats 25 cells you have to get away from. My sac is level 77 and deals 900 damage at my level thats one shotting people at my level in 1v1 pvp and 2 turn cd, even wrath requires a 3 turn interval and it even tells you when wrath is available, punishment dealing 1500 x2 in just one fight is already good game.

First punishment hits you on 50% deals 1500 damage they transport themselves away, then waits 2 turns, while you have to deal with croum + shield, and they can BTM their summons, and then transport back and punish you for 1500 again.
first i will say i am a sac player and this will be completely biased.

About your lvl 77 hitting 900 i call bull crap. im lvl 105 with 2.7k hp (in a bad set) and i probably bearly hit that with a crit and at exactly 50% hp i highly doubt your lvl 77 has more then that hp wise.

Sure sacs might hit 1000-1600 end game every 2 turns but 1 you really cant out think the person for 1 turn to get away? thats kinda sad. not to mention other classes can do that every turn we do that once every 2. i can't think of a class that cant geniunely avoid this spell. if they have 50% res why dont u have at least 30% if we are talking level like 190+.lastly most sacs wont run away then teleport back, and if they do why of all things would u summon/not kill their summon while they wait? if your honestly that foolish/too weak to kill of their 400 hp summon at lvl 170+ which im guessing your talking about do you really expect to win?

how to predict punishment
step 1: when the sac reaches 60% run far far away
step 2: if step one couldn't be completed sucsessfully count their turns (repeat untill you hit two)
step 3: after you repeat step two untill desired results repeat all steps starting with step 1.

lastly about wrath.
me and my friend both hit lvl 100 at the same time and we tested his iops wrath. buffed with power and brokle he hit 2500 that one hit me at that time. now it being dodgeable if we pvped i uaully won but even with my punishment i hit 6-750 depending if crit or%of hp. in 4 turns he hit 2500 in 4 turns i hit 6-750X2. seems he hits alot hard *sarcastic voice* mabye we should nerf iops?!

there is a way to counter every class. how to do it varies with each class.
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Score : 178
anna-c|2012-11-27 19:34:17
1v1 PvP will never be balanced, you will always get certain classes beating certain others. I've played against Cra's that can easily take 4-5 mp off me a turn, Xelor's that reduce me to 2 or 3 ap and Feca's that cast immunity or spell rebound all on turns where I would normally cast punishment.
The players that I normally win against are those that run in and weapon spam because they don't seem to have a clue about tactics.

As for those Sac's out there that have those incredible resists I suggest you sit there and try to work out just how many kamas they've invested into those sets/equips because I bet you'll find it's a lot more than the average player can afford.
Sacs will win
Have a 2nd allister set with overmaged Mp res, and good game. Ever played on Beta? look at all the rank 10 sacs there that still have rank 10, with over 200 of the best pvpers there. I have read your sarcastic post nightmayr, but ranks on beta server speak for itself, the best of the best pvp there 50% res 50 fixed res 150 crit res, rotatable Mp res/AP res sets, (exo) 12/5/12/6/11/6 sets, sacs win more than lose on beta and if they do lose it was just luck that the other person won ( crit fails etc) any noob sac would lose a pvp but watch the best fight the best of every class, sac will win. Sacs get away with cheap wins coz of one move that can be used 2-3 times in one fight and deal 900-1900 damage, where is the tactic in that? 4ap too? not even my 3ap spell casted 10 times can deal 1900 thats 30ap wasted.

How to tell the best from the worst?
Your not pro unless you have 4 sets of each element earth x 4 fire x 4 water x 4 and air x4, x4 sets with each piece exoed with 15 fixed res of each element fire earth water air, then you gotta have ap/mp res sets, then u gotta have every normal trophy and major trophy, then you have to have 5 or 6mp without a mount for croum or piwin, thats how you can tell if someone is good on beta. They can handle any situation at any time, against anyone.

More Opinons
you guys are sacs thats why you defend your class but lets hear opinons of other people that actually pvp on beta. even i have my own sac and yes it did hit 900, i have the same hp as you at lvl 77 though 2.7k and it did crit for 900

Running from a sac and not kill their summon?

and you cant run from a sac by the time you have gotten him to 60% or at punishment point, he would already have 2 chafers up which cannot be killed 1400 with 40% res will take you x 3 weapon hits x2 if you didnt croum and damage trophied up, then he can just trans that chafer where he can attract u from after mp is used and BTM himself to get to 50% then ull take a 50% punishment, bam! 1900 hp gone on a crit, then he will sunshade for 500-800 damage on a 50% air res

Advantages of Punishment
we need 50% neutral and 50% in their main element to be equal to them that is an extra croum and shield that we have to wear which isnt possible. any other way to get 50/50 % is impossible without sacrificing ap and damage, unless they are wearing a strength set and you wear sadida shield

Advantages of sacs?
Sacs are already 2:1 vital thats like 1.5k hp -2.5k hp more than any other character that has place points in attributes air water etc..
and not only that 1 point in water does not = to 1 vital damage, vital is way more reliable to have, especially at 2:1, when we hit over 300 of one stat it usually goes to 4:1 anyway, keeping in mind that 1 point in any attribute is not = 1 damage, which vital is its 1hp, so you have to work twice as hard to kill a sac, when they can easily get 400 + in stats from 2 turns of buff 5 turns 1k + stat,
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Score : 3876

a lvl 200 sac can only have 1990 based hp (+101 scrolled) so thats not 1500-2k more. if you place points into another stat but hp, it's your own disision so don't cry --' sacs only have cc spells so if you stay out of line they can't do much

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Score : 1386

I would like to know where your getting your numbers from because they arent probable. also most of what I posted was true if your arrogence wasn't blinding you. I imagine you play something like an eni who is a "support/healer" (I have seen some bad A cc enis though) class and expect to 1v1 every class in the game. also with you "over maged" talk its like saying a cra with 900 of a stat super funded and has plaid the game indepth for years will beat a cra that leeched its way to the same lvl with only 200 of a stat and not really knowing how to play the game. At lvl 200 people with the same class type 2 things are a factor stratagy and funding. I find stratagy more important than funding but that doesn't mean 2 people of the same class 1 in a super strong set and 1 in no set and expect the no set person to win it's just not going to happen.

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Score : 178
Cute-Fire|2012-11-30 07:24:49
a lvl 200 sac can only have 1990 based hp (+101 scrolled) so thats not 1500-2k more. if you place points into another stat but hp, it's your own disision so don't cry --' sacs only have cc spells so if you stay out of line they can't do much
hit points is more reliable than stats thats why its better, but any other class does not get 2:1 which is the big advantage sacs have, 1990 -101 = 1889 that is 1500-2k difference.

1 vital = 1 damage dealt
1 air/water/fire/earth stat = 1% damage =/= not 1 damage

i dont fail math neither do i insult people but thanks. I bet your just some sac player that just doesnt want a nerf, even though all the damages classes had their spells that hit over 1k damage nerfed, rekop, lethal, wrath, Foe,

do you not agree of other classes have the disadvantage of using dual res%? in neutral and something else?

do you not agree killing a chafer summon is a hassle and big waste of a turn? killing a flying sword is no swet, but if they use 4ap for a chafer and your using 8-12 to kill it your getting an 8ap steal per turn, tell me how do you get away if they transport that, walk into attract range and attract punish you? how do u avoid punishment like that? you can say mp/range removal all you want but theres other ways to get your punishment off. i know because i have a sac

ive seen many cras lose to sacs coz of punishment because they will eventually get it off atleast once per fight, if cra is meant to be the king of mp and range removal, tell me why is the sac winning? 90mp res and good game beats any class, only exception would be enus because they are above average in pvp now.
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Score : 339
Patwick|2012-11-30 14:03:39
1 vital = 1 damage dealt
No true. You gain 1 point stat for every HP you lose, so depending on base damage you will need to lose more than 1Hp to get a +1 damage increase.

Take Assault for example:

Base damage on steals = 8-9.

8 + 10% = 8.8
9 + 10% = 9.9

So you just lost 10HP to gain 10 stat point, and you still have not even reached 1 damage on that roll.

The amount of damage you gain from the vitality you lost depends on the base damage of whatever attack you are using.

It's not a constant 1:1 ratio.
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Score : 1119
AnotherFolly|2012-11-30 16:03:18
Patwick|2012-11-30 14:03:39
1 vital = 1 damage dealt
No true. You gain 1 point stat for every HP you lose, so depending on base damage you will need to lose more than 1Hp to get a +1 damage increase.
Take Assault for example:
Base damage on steals = 8-9.
8 + 10% = 8.8
9 + 10% = 9.9

So you just lost 10HP to gain 10 stat point, and you still have not even reached 1 damage gain on that roll.

The amount of damage you gain from the vitality you lost depends on the base damage of whatever attack you are using.
It's not a constant 1:1 ratio.
Well said.

Plus, you have the per-turn limit of stats that can be gained. For lvl6 punishements (forced/nimble/bold/spiritual), it's 200 per turn, or 220 on a crit. So, the max per turn you can accumulate is 200/220 or over 5 turns the max is a total of 1000 or 1100 per stat.
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Score : 178
Lagirdam|2012-11-30 18:40:44
AnotherFolly|2012-11-30 16:03:18
Patwick|2012-11-30 14:03:39
1 vital = 1 damage dealt
No true. You gain 1 point stat for every HP you lose, so depending on base damage you will need to lose more than 1Hp to get a +1 damage increase.
Take Assault for example:
Base damage on steals = 8-9.
8 + 10% = 8.8
9 + 10% = 9.9

So you just lost 10HP to gain 10 stat point, and you still have not even reached 1 damage gain on that roll.

The amount of damage you gain from the vitality you lost depends on the base damage of whatever attack you are using.
It's not a constant 1:1 ratio.
Well said.

Plus, you have the per-turn limit of stats that can be gained. For lvl6 punishements (forced/nimble/bold/spiritual), it's 200 per turn, or 220 on a crit. So, the max per turn you can accumulate is 200/220 or over 5 turns the max is a total of 1000 or 1100 per stat.
+220 in one turn is almost equivalent to what people spend on points, say if your a strength iop you will have 400 base strength if your a sac youll have 101 +220 already in one turn and then the possible +880 additional stats you get, +880 is just too much, like i said sacs have so many advantages over other classes, why do they even need 2:1 hp when they can gain stats more than what we spend on points?, by the way i was on beta server yesterday again and another cra lost to a sac by 2.5k hitpoints, i can post screenies of this if you dont believe me.

With lashing retreat atonement bats eye and paralyzing he still lost, and thats suppose to be sacs weakness? what weakness? i only see sacs losing to enus but i have not yet seen it, and not because enus are sacs weakness, its beacause enus are above average with all these new buffs especially to the bag
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Score : 2143

i do agree with the op is u ask me. though i wont point out a single spell of sacs arsenal from my side that ill say needs nerf, but the way sacs are supposed to work in my view is flawed and can be easily made into a op class.

reasons :

1. i dont need to work much for stats. just 300 stats from an entire set and im done as sac. ill get 1k buffs from stat punishment anyways. no other class enjoys this benefit. this in turn lets the sac work out more on their defensive side. for them , more defense = more offense. so what do they do, stack up resists. tons of resists. to the point that they can get 50% in opponents element easily.

2. their summons. truthfully sacs shouldnt even have 1 summon. i have seen sacs fight which are more annoying than vita osa fights. saw a sac fight , in which when he got low hp, went to end of map, kept spamming summons and btming them and assault/absorption for additional heals. soon the sac was more than 75% from almost 20%. no other class gets such benefits from summons.

3. sunshade. that weapon alone made the current sac op and truthfully it really needs a nerf. a 4 ap weapon hitting 800+ is op. specially if its a single dmg and comes with life leech. it means even if life leech may not work on shielded chars but it still hits hard on shields. not even the old stormcloud was this op if u ask me. or maybe it was. in any case the former stormcloud and the current sunshade is very much comparable, only difference is that the former one is nerfed.

4. punishment is one ace in the hole that cannot be underestimated. more due to the above 3 facts. sacs have high hp. coupled with great defense , its hard to other players to move their hp from punish zone easily. not to mention, if they r at punish zone of their hp, that means they are already buffed a lot in stats. means they ll hit hard anyways.

5. their map manipulation with their summon spam. seen cawwot? it doesn't need +summons to be spammed. its got 600+hp at lvl 6. 4 turns cooldown. 4 ap. can be spammed a lot and can be used to manipulate map as well as life steal from it. makes it very hard to dodge the punishment. it cant even be least compared to iops wrath. wrath is 7 ap. its hard to land as it is since its 4 turns delayed. moreover jump -wrath is 12 ap. move 1 space from jump wrath range and u r safe. not the same with punishment though.

6. too much, absolutely too much life leech. BTM, assault, sunshade. that's already the fact that whatever they use ends up giving them hp. 3 x life steal in cc, 2 times at range, upto 6 times from summons. if u sum them up, i feel its too much and unnecessary tbh.

7. its easiet to get 12 ap 6 mp setup on sacs since u need not worry a lot about stats. just make sure ur gears are giving good hp and resists are ok and u r into rampage even with a gelano at lvl 200. unfair right? but thats life.

so are sacs op. i wont say they are op. but current gears, when accompanied by their system, the way they work, makes them really op. thats the harsh truth. like it or not thats the way sacs are no no sac can deny that.

and for all those sacs who thinks that not all sac can get this setup, pls compare ur char to similar geared char and see the difference. and can any class fully geared, potentially op can defeat a similarly geared sac? i don't think so.

if it s a poorly equipped sac, compare it to poorly equipped other 14 classes and ull still find urself over the edge. if its over geared sac vs 14 other over geared sac? still they are over the edge.

am i saying sacs need to be nerfed/ are op? no

is the entire system flawed? hell yeah

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Score : 27409

There will always be some classes that you will have trouble beating. And you will usually lose to people who invest more money and effort into their sets, that is just how it is in 1 v 1. That is why Ankama has stopped supporting it.

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Score : 11134

1v1 pvp is not supported any more though. It is unbalanced and that the main reason the devs took away headhunter.

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Score : 960
XehanordHeartless|2012-11-30 22:56:16
1v1 pvp is not supported any more though. It is unbalanced and that the main reason the devs took away headhunter.
Not to mention the OP is whining about a sac who's obviously spent the money to be good.

Newsflash OP, in pvp, a sacrier gains HALF of the boost from punishments. +200 in a stat? They took 400 damage. +1000 in a stat? They took 2000 damage. You win against sacriers by nickel & dimes, you bleed them slowly. Dont expect to win by shoving a knife into their gut and expect it to kill them quickly, you're doing everything in your power to make YOURSELF die quickly.
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Score : 29
Digitized|2012-11-30 23:08:02
XehanordHeartless|2012-11-30 22:56:16
1v1 pvp is not supported any more though. It is unbalanced and that the main reason the devs took away headhunter.
Not to mention the OP is whining about a sac who's obviously spent the money to be good.

Newsflash OP, in pvp, a sacrier gains HALF of the boost from punishments. +200 in a stat? They took 400 damage. +1000 in a stat? They took 2000 damage. You win against sacriers by nickel & dimes, you bleed them slowly. Dont expect to win by shoving a knife into their gut and expect it to kill them quickly, you're doing everything in your power to make YOURSELF die quickly.


its all theoretical nonsense. it doesn't work practically. 2000 can easily be given up for 1k stats if u have 6k hp. even more so when u have tons of life steal to get that hp back. be practical.

yeah 1 vs 1 is not viable anymore. doesn't change the fact that sacs have tendency to be potentially op. and one such potentially op sac can change the outcome of group pvp as well.

and a sac who obviously spent money to be good? even if u spend tons of cash vs a sac who spend tons of cash ull be at disadvantage due to the way sacs work.

till now if u ask me, the only char who has the capability to go toe to toe with sacs are ecas. even then the ecas are hard pressed. but due to their unpredictable nature they may win. but the weight in favor of sacs still remains more.
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Score : 11134
lallallalallalala|2012-12-01 10:43:07
Digitized|2012-11-30 23:08:02
XehanordHeartless|2012-11-30 22:56:16
1v1 pvp is not supported any more though. It is unbalanced and that the main reason the devs took away headhunter.
Not to mention the OP is whining about a sac who's obviously spent the money to be good.

Newsflash OP, in pvp, a sacrier gains HALF of the boost from punishments. +200 in a stat? They took 400 damage. +1000 in a stat? They took 2000 damage. You win against sacriers by nickel & dimes, you bleed them slowly. Dont expect to win by shoving a knife into their gut and expect it to kill them quickly, you're doing everything in your power to make YOURSELF die quickly.


its all theoretical nonsense. it doesn't work practically. 2000 can easily be given up for 1k stats if u have 6k hp. even more so when u have tons of life steal to get that hp back. be practical.

yeah 1 vs 1 is not viable anymore. doesn't change the fact that sacs have tendency to be potentially op. and one such potentially op sac can change the outcome of group pvp as well.

and a sac who obviously spent money to be good? even if u spend tons of cash vs a sac who spend tons of cash ull be at disadvantage due to the way sacs work.

till now if u ask me, the only char who has the capability to go toe to toe with sacs are ecas. even then the ecas are hard pressed. but due to their unpredictable nature they may win. but the weight in favor of sacs still remains more.

No sacs have the tendecy to be potentionally op in 1v1 PvP. You can pretty easily blitz a sac in team pvp.
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Score : 559

The issue with Sacs is not punishment. The issue is Map Manipulation.

Look at the cra, it has the best range steal in game to help win the range war. But they even nerfed this advantage to be delayed one turn so that enemies get a chance at the start of a fight.

Now look at the swaps a Sac can use. Sac has 4 potential summons it can use to swap with along with allies if it's a team fight. It can swap you into the middle of a damage zone on the first turn and in team fights, this means likely a character that's not even had a chance to buff defensively.

I've not seen many Sac's have trouble with range like they are supposed to as a weakness. There are just too many ways to swap and it can be cast to much during a fight.

The thing that needs to be fixed is a set rate of 1 swap per turn and a delay of at least 1 round at the start of a fight. Then if that's not enough, reduce the cast ranges of swaps so that you can punish Sacs for not staying close to their teams or the enemies. If that would happen, then Sacs would be mostly balanced both as solo and as a team fighter.

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Score : 11134
MrLuckyduck|2012-12-01 18:57:53
The issue with Sacs is not punishment. The issue is Map Manipulation.

Look at the cra, it has the best range steal in game to help win the range war. But they even nerfed this advantage to be delayed one turn so that enemies get a chance at the start of a fight.

Now look at the swaps a Sac can use. Sac has 4 potential summons it can use to swap with along with allies if it's a team fight. It can swap you into the middle of a damage zone on the first turn and in team fights, this means likely a character that's not even had a chance to buff defensively.No it can't. Coop has a 1 turn cooldown in the start of the fight and since the sac can't use transposition in the same turn even if it manages to coop it would be in an enemy zone as well. With no buffs.

I've not seen many Sac's have trouble with range like they are supposed to as a weakness. There are just too many ways to swap and it can be cast to much during a fight. There are cooldowns ,the spells can't be both be used in the same turn and you can range steal them. If they manage to coop you then it's your fault for not being able to blitz them.

The thing that needs to be fixed is a set rate of 1 swap per turn and a delay of at least 1 round at the start of a fight.This is already at place man. Then if that's not enough, reduce the cast ranges of swaps so that you can punish Sacs for not staying close to their teams or the enemies. If that would happen, then Sacs would be mostly balanced both as solo and as a team fighter.
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