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Class Improvement - Sacrier

By [Ankama]DOFUS - ADMIN - February 20, 2019, 17:58:41
AnkaTracker

This topic is intended to gather your ideas and suggestions on improvements to the Sacrier class.
Please, keep in mind that class balancing focuses on both PvP and PvM at once.

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First Ankama intervention

The accompanying graphic allows us to view the results of this first survey for the Sacrier class.

 
  • Dommages - Damage
  • Survie (soin, protection, et tanking) - Survival (healing, protection, and tanking)
  • Amélioration - Improvements
  • Placement - Placement
  • Entrave - Debuffer
  • Vision actuelle - Current vision
  • Vision idéale - Ideal vision


In red, you can see the ideal vision you have for each class role. The blue profile presents the current vision and feeling in the game.

Like most classes, Sacriers have two similar (but not identical) profiles – the class as it is today is broadly in line with what players expect. However, there is a noticeable divergence in the level of attack power, which is perceived to be too strong today.

The diagram represents one of the elements taken into account upon reflection; your comments allow us to provide a more-concrete vision that is closer to the in-game reality.
We'd also like to remind you that in order to solve perception divergences, nerfing and upping aren't the only tools we have at our disposal.

You can see the class comparison on the main topic.
See message in context
Reactions 26
Score : 561

i very like present sacrier gameplay, is very flexible (unfortunately not enough to do infinity dreams..). 
possibility to tank or atleast possibility to bothering mobs by kaiting is very nice for me.
in few words: super tank, not bad dmg, super movemnt and positioning, its all what i wish to see on this class
what i would change?
 -desolation nerf -> 3ap cost, but only 4% or even 3%heal also lower dmg
 -Coagulation -> nerf to 100%, or shield destorying mechanick 
 -Sacrifice(spell which i love!)-> dmg by my res and modificatros insted of victime
also we need tool to tank in "open space", somethink like old riposte meyby.
i dont mind to see more fluid change from possitive suffering to negative (in both directions ofc biggrin)
one more thing, that reflect dmg isnt very good, it doesnt do anythink most of time. 
as for me u can even delet it or change for some "open spece" lock tool biggrin

0 -7
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Score : 439

More "vitality spells", which damage is based on sacrier's vitality (like e.g. pain shared used to be). 
It is also necessary to make this class more interesting. Revamp int/cha/str spells. Now the only useful build in pvp is agility one.

4 0
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Score : 561

I dont feel liek int, Agi or chance need chnages.
Agi - super good in pvp but not that good in pvm
chance - super good pvm but not that good pvp
int - balancing all aspeckt of game, pvp solo and group, dungs and Hunt. Especialy when we support this build with weapon.

but this str build.. Its no that good or interasting. Only 1 think is nice: berserk + gash combo and Its all. Rest is a silence.. So mabye yea, True "berserk" style is what we need for him, self dmg for high dmg but without self erosion.

1 -2
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Score : 2325

I feel like the Sac already has all the tools it needs to succeed, but it's held back by how those tools are organized. Look at how the Sac's attack spells are paired:

Absorption (-Suffering) // Slaughter (-Suffering)
Fury (+Suffering) // Carnage (+Suffering)
Blood Bath (-Suffering) // Ritual Bloodletting (-Suffering)
Nervousness (+Suffering) // Clobbering (+Suffering)

This is in contrast with the Panda, where all of the Panda's drunk spells are paired with a sober spell, and vice versa. With how little fluidity there is between switching stances (having to regain stacks and not being able to do so for a full turn after casting Convalescence), what ends up happening is that in a given fight, each element ends up with an attack that's just kinda there instead of actually being usable.

7 0
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Score : 887

Str/cha/int need a looking at, they are just inferior to agi. Int can be interesting if Ritual bloodletting wasn't blood bath's variant, that way it would at least be a good drain tank path. Str seems the most glass cannon with Gash, maybe emphasize that more? Cha has a little bit of everything, personally I'd like old Dissolution back or buff it as -50 dodge isn't worth the low base damage and being 4ap.

Sacrier is in a good spot but it's not quite there yet in my opinion. Lastly can we get some better animations? Everything looks the same with the electric shock animation on everything.

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The accompanying graphic allows us to view the results of this first survey for the Sacrier class.

 
  • Dommages - Damage
  • Survie (soin, protection, et tanking) - Survival (healing, protection, and tanking)
  • Amélioration - Improvements
  • Placement - Placement
  • Entrave - Debuffer
  • Vision actuelle - Current vision
  • Vision idéale - Ideal vision


In red, you can see the ideal vision you have for each class role. The blue profile presents the current vision and feeling in the game.

Like most classes, Sacriers have two similar (but not identical) profiles – the class as it is today is broadly in line with what players expect. However, there is a noticeable divergence in the level of attack power, which is perceived to be too strong today.

The diagram represents one of the elements taken into account upon reflection; your comments allow us to provide a more-concrete vision that is closer to the in-game reality.
We'd also like to remind you that in order to solve perception divergences, nerfing and upping aren't the only tools we have at our disposal.

You can see the class comparison on the main topic.
Reply

Regarding the Sacrier class, your feedback indicated that the class is fun and interesting to play at low levels when you use more than one element.
You do not find single-element mode fun, especially the air path even though you feel it is viable.

In the forums:
Many of you asked for major changes to this class. In addition to the feedback that we have on the chart, you would like deep-reaching changes to the class to make it a bit more berserker-like, which would fit the background better. For this reason, we are going to offer more than simple balancing for this class.

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Score : -30

Blood bath need to be used x2 time per turn instead of x1 ,tho a str panda can survive better with Filtipint which heals and dps x2 better then sacri !!!!!. the extra zone blood bath covers is mostly useless so just replace Blood bath with Filtpint n problem solved for sacri tanking !!

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Score : 3

Could we have an estimated date for the next BETA with new sacri spell? 
Or some detail, i didn't understand all of the things on the yesterday live.

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Score : 1

Tomorrow afternoon
 

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Score : 561
MY BETA IMPRESSION:

-“Does the gameplay respect the background and lore of the class?”
-“Does the gameplay seem fun and interesting, considering the options proposed to you?”              YES, BIG YESS!! As a sac with 14years experience i have to sey that i rrly like that changes. its like back to roots. im in love with spells lik: Retributon, Bloodthirsty MAdness, Riposte and self-dmg one biggrin.
Unfortunately there are a few things to change here.


 -“What do you think of the Suffering system?”   
         
         The biggest problem has always been erossion. sice frigost this mechanic has taken us away from end-game dungs. i was gratefull when u removed self-erosion.to be honest after that we had a great time on end-game dungs. For us- SACS, there is only 2 ways to fight in end-game: Tank or kait. we had enough survi to tank bosses like solar, protozor etc (% survi, shields- our protector role in team) and even then it wasnt easy to manage (that’s good J) and as we know in fights like this its all about erosion..  Also when we couldnt tank, we still could try to use strategy: get in mele/short rang- hit- run, kaiting.

"We also hope that all of these changes will allow Sacriers to find a place for themselves in PvM, especially at higher and very high levels, where they are currently having difficulties."- WHAT?! We were fine..
u just force us to drop protector role and focus on dmg and positioning (pandas, iops, cras, rogals, xels can do it better btw..).

New suffering basically gives us %dmg and % sustain in exchange of hp but in fact we loosing much more than hp. Check this:
            1) self-dmg -> we losing more max hp (even without extra erosion there is 10% of natural erosion), but ok, during tanking we can avoid to use those spells.
            2) erosion makes ours hp on hight % (even on 100%!) which means that we do not receive benefits from suffering -> how to tank without %sustain? Here we can’t do anything
           3) bleeding system got big hole and it should be replaced by suffering. We need bleeding to get shield but there is only 1 spell which supporting bleeding and its offensive buff which we don’t need during tanking (gives power in exchange of hp ). Also that spell is a variant of gravity. So to get shield we have to lose extra hp and tank tool (gravity). to sey more if we will pick graviti, we can’t pick shield because it doesn’t work (we doesn’t have bleeding..). So we got 2 tank tools which doesn’t work together.
in 1 word: we losing 3 spells to get shields.. it even doesn’t have sense 

so it is rrly worth? i think it needs some more work and grinding. 


Suffering vs erosion!            
                I have got idea how to make this mechanic more resistant to erosion. In past we had Punishment based on hp, but ero didn’t affect on it.  it means that is counted from base hp so we currently have 3 different “hp”.
base hp – stats, scrolls, its hp which we have on zaap siting. Then we got fight hp like this c/m where c is current hp and m is max hpNow suffering is counted from max. So at the fight beginning we have 100% hp, lets sey its 1000hp and few tourns later we still can have 100% hp but only 200hp. In this way suffering doesn’t workBut if we use base hp instead of max we stll can have erosion and get afforts from suffering because this 200hp is only 20% of base hp.


-“Do the elemental paths seem distinct and from each other, as well as effective in their different roles?”-“Do the elemental paths seem balanced between them?”
 Yes and its good. As for now I can imagine:
- AGi saca who crushing oponents back-lines, single targets
-Chance sac as ultimate destroyer in rang and aoe,
-great int mass aoe crusher with some positioning
 -Str sac as a WALL (It is a pity that str doesn’t give lock L, im sure that a lot of pandas and fecas would be greatfull from it).
            About balance I fell that is ok, only str bothers me so much. He seems to be very limited becaus of:
- only 1hit/tourn from “Blood Bath” -> would be great if it would be 2 hits, ofc a bit lower dmg to keep it balanced.
- 2 thing is Gash for 5ap! Why so much? It have close dmg to carnage (but carnage is for 4 ap and can stack base dmg 2 times, Gash cant). Gash is single target spell but cost more than aoe from int or chance where base dmg is close. Also 5ap is very painfull to connect it with other spells during tourn. In 1 word-> to high cost to low values.


-“How do you feel about the order/level at which spells are unlocked? What about the pairing of a spell and its variant?”
           Its ok. I like set: safe attak or self-dmg powerfull attak.


-“Are multi-elemental modes/builds interesting to play?”             
            They could be, but i feel like they don’t be effective. Ofc even now I have some ideas about multi builds but not sure if its worth.. Multi elements builds are good as long as u can connect few different moves easly. Self-Dmg spells are too expensive for this and save-dmg spells seems to be boring. But if each suffering lvl will add +2base dmg to safe-dmg spells then omni and hybrids will be soooo good and fun to play. Why? Because those spells are cheaper in ap so we got more possibilities, Next thing is connection with suffering control which is sooo funn to play. Also in this way Omni/hybrid player’s doesn’t feel the lack of power compared to the pure builds who just spamming 1 spell to boost own base dmg.



-“What place will the Sacrier take in PvM?” and “What will be their roles in PvP?”
 I think I need more tests.




Greetings,  Sheol 

P.s
sorry for text wall and my low English skill (it isn’t my main biggrin) also feel free to catch me by ankabox or even discord to discuss more.
2 0
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Score : 37

In regards of Erosion I agree. Maybe one should also mention, that you don't reduce the received erosion with your damage reduction from the suffering, but your damage buff increases it on the self-harm spells.


But In regards of balance and the chargable spells I am very sceptical.
Str seems to be way more weak than other elements

First issue is Gash.
I think carnage being able to stack two charges is not intended, but even so, in comparison Gash is really bad.
Damage per ap cost if stacked for Gash: 15.2
Damage per ap cost if stacked for Carnage 17.5
and you can cast carnage twice on you target per turn. You cant do that with gash. So you benefit from the damage charge way more often for carnage than for gash. Also you pay more Ap and HP for the charge. Gash is just really bad.
A big issue here is: the charges only last for two turns, so if you are focusing one target, every third spellcast with gash is on yourself... for 5 ap, that is just super super bad.
Also why does your base damage on an enemy with crit increase by 5 compared to a nonkrit and on yourself it increases by 7? seems like it should be the other way around.

Next one is Fury and decimation. Why does sacrier has two times the same spell for two different elements, just with different crit ratios? I don't get it.

And the chargeable AoE spells could use some changes too I think.
At first glance they seem very strong and very nice. And they certainly are, but I quickly ran into the following issue:
What kind of shield do I wear if I want to play them?
I don't want to play ranged shield, cause I still have many melee only spells and I am supposed to tank etc. But on the other hand I can't really afford to hit my enemies with the AoE spells cause then I stand inside the AoE too and The selfdamage also increases by 20 so I hit the enemy with an 60 base dmg spell and myself with 40 base dmg? not good not good.
Maybe the spells should be changed to only hit you and only get charged, when you directly cast them on yourself, but not when you just stand inside the AoE.

I tried to play Bloodbath as an int sacrier some time. And I can say from experience, that you almost never get more than 3 or maximum 4 enemies inside the AoE so you get only 30 - 40 Lock buff. That is not so much for a tank class. Iops for example get 25 lock per enemy they hit with violence.

To me it really seems like Agi is getting favored a lot again. Beside having already the best attribute bonus (lock/dodge) and Carnage, they have with Hemorrhage one of the best defensive spells compared to the others.

1 0
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Score : 145

being an omni sac before this update and going into the current sac. this is probably the worst form of the sac i have ever played.

2 0
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Score : 2

As I said on a different thread, I am not a big fan of this new build.  I miss having the absorption spell which allowed me to use earth steal in a wider area.  The movement of the flying sword has also been limited, which I dislike.  I am mainly interested in crafting and solo play, so I relied on these two spells the most to quickly take out monsters.  I recently got 7-day subscription with a steam DLC pack and this update really killed my interest in extending my subscription.

0 0
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Score : 191

I love this new version of sacrier

1 -1
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Score : 28

New sac is destroying balance.. everyones switching to sac now.. no fun

3 -1
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Score : 304

sacrier is in a good spot now....atleast something good came out of this update..

1 -2
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Score : 212

It's like they don't even put thought into their updates anymore. I can see why less players are  playing this game. Sacriers were fine the way they were . Why doesn't ankama boost  classes that actually need it?  Classes that are rarely/never used for kolo . I've been doing  kolo since finishing most of the achievements and because the  new update made ranking up easier . But damn the level of stupidity of this new sacrier boost  leaves me speechless. Do you know how lame it is to have to fight a stupid sacrier for every fight. ?   . Every 3 v 3 kolo fight has a sacrier for each side for every damn fight.  WTF was Ankama thinking with this update. So much for class balancing.  This game is becoming the definition of stupid.

1 -3
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Score : 561

in same way i can ask " do u know how annoying is to face masq and his inssane survi and sooo fxxking hard hits or that brainless ap reap cra?".
Whole your post shows only 1 thing - there is a lot of sac. Yes its true,  i have seen a lot of them too but i understand it. SAc now is like they were in past, true berserkes biggrin interasting playstyle and i like it as a lot of ppl in past. Also a lot of ppl had to leave sac cos of hard pvm time around frigost and a bit later when sacs were almost usless there. Now sac is ok in pvp and pvm. Big nterest of sac shows only that the update was good hit and ppl get what they wanted. 
those days there is not a lot of tryhards who just aiming to chagne class from op to more op, most of players are casualas or daily players who can play in free time (age of community is +23 i think so age when obligations are more important than game)

0 -1
Score : 561

hm.. im not a big fan of suffering calculating.. 1 suffer is 1% redu 1% dmg, where 3 is 10% and 4 is 17% and 5 is 25%.. maybe just make is stabel 5% sustain and 4%dmg per 1 suffering lvl?
its almost same effect but easyer to count and also is somekind of erossion counter cos even low suffering lvl gives u somthink allready not like now and hight suffering is same. its just idea. I think that this change would be good to fluency of playstyle.

0 0
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Score : 212

 

ShadowOfDeath|2019-07-12 23:43:38
in same way i can ask " do u know how annoying is to face masq and his inssane survi and sooo fxxking hard hits or that brainless ap reap cra?".
Whole your post shows only 1 thing - there is a lot of sac. Yes its true,  i have seen a lot of them too but i understand it. SAc now is like they were in past, true berserkes biggrin interasting playstyle and i like it as a lot of ppl in past. Also a lot of ppl had to leave sac cos of hard pvm time around frigost and a bit later when sacs were almost usless there. Now sac is ok in pvp and pvm. Big nterest of sac shows only that the update was good hit and ppl get what they wanted. 
those days there is not a lot of tryhards who just aiming to chagne class from op to more op, most of players are casualas or daily players who can play in free time (age of community is +23 i think so age when obligations are more important than game)









Masq hard hits? All they have is furya which does around 400 -700 depending on the res and if it crits.  They only hit high if they're full STR with a hammerture and that's not just masq that's all STR classes. Insane survi? You do realize almost half  of the classes can unbewitch those shields off that's how easy it is to deal with their shields  and they only last two turns. . As for AP reduction cra I haven't seen any in kolo .  Sacriers were useless in pvm ? Get a 50% resist set like the panda on a sacrier and you have one of the best tanks in game right next to the pandas. I've seen it before they're impossible to kill making them deadly in pvm . You're just using the wrong build for it.  True berserkers?  They do more damage than most iops and have crazy damage reduction along with self heals and shields. Not to mention they can swap a player on the second turn from across the map deciding the fight that early.  It's stupid op which is why they're suddenly everywhere . It's not just for no reason if they were decent and not so tough to kill along with the insane damage they do now   there wouldn't be so many after this update.
3 -2
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Score : 561

yea.. fury and inferno had a bit les dmg than sac spells (now got much higher) but also could bost your dmg in effeckt weapons like teroid axe was insane. just good build and masq was and is monster. also shields, sharing dmg with summon where hiting summon doesnt even breaking ivory. pb dmg which deasnt care about res or sustain, additional tool is unheal, unlock, and ofc shields not only makes u tanker but also your oppo cant steal hp from shield.. even if shields can be unbuffed they are super good caus unbuffs cost a lot of ap, more than cast shields and still shields is a value not only for u but for your team too. 

SO MASQ IS VERY VERY STRONG HITER WITH INSANE SURVI AND MOBILITY. was better than sac and now is much much better

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