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Sacrier balancing

By Electricotter - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - May 16, 2012, 17:15:44
DevTracker

Sacrier's are a much debated class.
While it is true that several of their spells are outdated (Foot and Assault namely), still others are deemed rather powerful (Sacrifice and Stat Punishments for example).

It is safe to say that basically every Sac spell has been talked about either on the forums or in game extensively.
It is with some deliberation that we have decided to initiate an official public discussion on this class.
The contents herein are to be translated and presented to the Development team in no more than a months time.

It is noteworthy, and much to our chagrin, that this feedback will come too late to have any influence on any changes which will appear in version 2.7.
Take heart however, as balance is an ongoing process.
While the Sacrier is fresh in the Developer's minds we intend to strike while the iron is hot.

A quick summary of what we have gathered from the community thus far, is as follows:

  • Vital Punishment is useless.
  • Sacrier's Foot and Assault are outdated spells.
  • Movement Ability for the Sacrier is too important.
  • Weapon damage is more important to this class than most others.
It should be brought to the community's attention that there is a Sac thread which a few members of the Zenith have already been involved in.
To summarize the linked thread:
Vital Punishment, Sac's Foot, Assault, and Life Transfer are either in need of a rework or need to be changed outright.

It is important to note that in this, as with other threads on the forums, one must observe proper posting etiquette.
It is also important to your Zenith representatives that we be able to accurately and clearly bring our community's comments and concerns to the Development team.
To this end one must be as clear and on topic as possible, while respecting the opinions of our diverse experiences.

How would you rank/define the Sacrier's class roles?

What hinders or facilitates these roles (spells/mechanics/other)?

What catalyst is needed, if any, to balance out the classes main flaws?

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First Ankama intervention

I've just published a devblog from Lichen about the reasons behind the spell changes: Spell modifications in 2.7.0

See message in context
Reactions 816
Score : 3034
Replace vitality punishment with....

Coagulation.

1. sac is under the effect of 4 punishments yielding an erosion of 30% and "coagulation" is cast putting the sacrier in the "coagulated state"
2. The coagulated state lasts for 2 turns and provides 200 erosion soak per hit (250 on crit) and converts erosion into % ressistance.
3. Sacrier gets hit and reduces the damage of the blow by the sum total of his erosion total turned into % res'. 30% erosion =30% res'. Base erosion included.
4. In this example the sacrier Takes 1500 damage v 30% erosion converted into 30% res' = a total damage taken of 1050 .
5. The sacrier would take erosion damage before the reduction is aplied. But this would have a 200 erosion soak applied (250 on crit).
6. So 450 erosion damage from our 1500 hit would be reduced to 250 erosion damage total (200 damage total on the crit, 'cos of the 250 soak)
7. So 1500 damage would = 450 erosion damage to the sacriers hp, minus 200(250 on crit) erosion soak. Doing 1050 damage and 250 (200 on the crit) erosion damage while coagulation state is in play.
8. Coagulated state would be 2 turn duration at all levels bar level 6. At level 6 it would have a 3 turn duration.
9. Cool down on the spell 10 at level 1, 9
at level 2. 8 at level 3, 7 at level 4, 6 at level 5 and 5 at level 6 spell.
10. On the crit plus 1 duration of coagulated state and 250 erosion soak per hit taken.
11. The coagulation state can not be unbewitched.
12. 1/45 crit rate.
13. 3 ap at spell levels 1 to 5, 2 ap at spell level 6.


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Replace life transfair with.....

Rage

1. cast stat punishments by proxi get 5% erosion total per stat punishment cast.
2. cast Rage entering the Rage state (can't be unbewitched). Turn the sacriers erosion total into +damage.
3. This would = 10+ damage per 5% erosion. The sacrier gains a futher +10 damage of the element of the punishment you cast, eg: Nimble punishment when rage state is active you would gain +10damage, + 10 air damage.
4. If all 4 stat punishments are cast you would gain a total of +50 damage max for the duration of the effect in each element. 40 + damage for the 4 x5% converted erosion and the +10 element damage = to the punishments element.
5. 2ap at all levels. CD 5 and duration 3.
6.
Cool down on the spell 10 at level 1, 9 at level 2. 8 at level 3, 7 at level 4, 6 at level 5 and 5 at level 6 spell.

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Absorbtion and dissolution: Improve the damage at all levels of the spell. 10% to 15% increase.

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Sacriers foot

My sugestion is this. 4ap at all levels to cast. Have it as a 1 cell area of effect like dissolution. 1/45 crit rate. 2 casts a turn restriction. Erosion goes to 20% on the crit.

level 1: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit. 10-14 earth damage. 14-18 earth damage on the crit.
level 2: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit 12-16 earth damage. 16-20 earth damage on the crit.
level 3: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit. 14-18 earth damage. 18-22 earth damage on the crit.
level 4: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit 22-26 earth damage. 26-30 earth damage on the crit.
level 5: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit. 26-30 earth damage. 30-34 earth damage on the crit.
level 6: One cell area of effect. Add 15% reosion to those hit 30-34 earth damage. 34-40 earth damage on the crit.


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Flying sword: Give it the hp, res of the panda wasta and let it apply a 5% erosion debuff. leave it as 4ap to cast. Make its neutral res 40% so B.T.M can't be abused with it. Give it its old ability of striking twice per turn.

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Sacrifice: make sacrifice when cast on an ally it prevents 50% damage, the other 50% of the damage going to the sacrier, then switch. Also make the sacrier imune to summon killing spells (bar unsummoning enus) but the summon under the sacrifice would take 50% of the damage as normal (justification: summons have less hp total than a character). Reducing the overpowered aspect of the mask/ fecca / sacrier combo using sacrifice, while diminishing the neediness of the sacrier for all protection spells while sacrifice is up.

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Fury amendment: Any target of the spell has 5% erosion (2 turn duration) applied instead of the 1% hp bleed poison. Or make the 1% poison apply only to the target that spell was cast on. Instead of it always effecting the sacrier.

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Bloodthirsty madness: Make it have the ability to be cast on enemies, but make the effect on enemies give 5% erosion for 2 turns. Nothing more, no steal (remember 2 casts per target at level 6). But keep it with its steal / heal effects when cast on allies. Same ap cost. Or let us just be able to cast on enemies as well for the steal / heal.

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Punishment: Give it the ability to give weakend state for a turn (two on a crit) and have it a fixed damage spell. Eg: 600 or 800 damage neutral not effected by buffs or plus damages. Remove or lower cast restriction from the begining of combat or after spiritual leash (2 turns before you can cast punishment).

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Replace assalt with....

Blood curse.

1. has a range of 6 none range boostable, none line of sight
2. when cast on an enemy they eneter the Blood curse state, take a negative malus to all % stats for each mp they use.
3. The stat malus has a 3 turn duration.
4. 3 ap at all levels
5.
Cool down of 5 at all levels
6. Duration of the Blood curse state 3 rounds.
7. duration of stat malus 3 rounds.
8. The blood curse state can not be unbewitched, however its acumulated malus's can.
9. At the end of the the person inflicted with blood curse's turn, all malus debuffs still on the target are done in steal damage (air).

10. +1 turn duration of malus on crit 1/40 crit rate.


Level 1: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 3 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds
Level 2: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 6 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds
Level 3: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 9 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds
Level 4: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 12 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds
Level 5: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 15 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds
Level 6: for every mp the target enemy uses minus 18 to all % characteristics (intel / str / chance / air) for 3 rounds

Max malus on a 6mp character would course minus 108 (intel / str / chance / air) characteristics if all mp was used. For a max accumulation at max level spell....


Round 1. 108 (intel / str / chance / air)
Doing 108 air steal damage at the end of the inflicteds turn.
Round 2. 216 (intel / str / chance / air) Doing 216 air steal damage at the end of the inflicteds turn.
round 3. 324 (intel / str / chance / air) Doing 324 air steal damage at the end of the duration of the blood curse state.

Erosion tank! *shrugs* I can dream.
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Score : 3547

I know i'm being a bit vague, but I think that you could fix two spells here if you give Flying Sword better resistances/health while also reducing the cooldown/AP cost of transposition, allowing Sacriers to have more mobility with less MP while not turning them into unavoidable blood suckers.

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Score : 6471
kakisuka|2012-05-16 19:20:45
I know i'm being a bit vague, but I think that you could fix two spells here if you give Flying Sword better resistances/health while also reducing the cooldown/AP cost of transposition, allowing Sacriers to have more mobility with less MP while not turning them into unavoidable blood suckers.
I don't find this vague.
But wouldn't you say that Transposition having a lower CD and lower AP cost would, in conjunction with Sacrifice, give the Sacrier immense mobility?
Beyond that and perhaps,more importantly, wouldn't this give immense map control as well? I mean Transpo is already sporting a 4/3 CD currently.

Even without including Sacrifice(which does take a certain toll on the Sac (albeit for statistic gains as well)) with the superior mobility available to other classes
such as Jump ( no cooldown), summons, Ecas Leap, and many other options available, the Sac wouldn't even be in need of MP. Transpo and Attraction alone could get the Sacrier by
despite having only 3 MP.

In terms of Flying Sword, so long as the Neutral resistance is buffed more Vit is acceptable.

@Beard, please don't think I am ignoring your post, but I feel we have discussed these changes at length already. They are duly noted.
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Score : 3034
Electricotter|2012-05-16 19:39:44
@Beard, please don't think I am ignoring your post, but I feel we have discussed these changes at length already. They are duly noted.

Punishment: Give it the ability to give weakend state for a turn (two on a crit) and have it a fixed damage spell. Eg: 600 or 800 damage neutral not effected by buffs or plus damages. Remove or lower cast restriction from the beginning of combat or after spiritual leash (2 turns before you can cast punishment).

Transposition: Have it do a heal to the ally you switch with. Life saver. Intel' based heal.

Cooperation: Have it do damage to the enemy you switch with. A cheap shot. strength based damage.

Swap: Have it do a small amount of damage (air) when you swap with an enemy. Like 6-12 air damage at max level of spell.

Evasion: Have it so it reflects close combat damage for one turn. Like a reflect for weapon attacks. Feccas can reflect spells. Or add this effect when the sacrier is attacked on the diagonal. jump back when in Close combat (base to base).

Attraction: Increase its casts per target to two at levels 5 and 6 of the spell. Lower ap cost to 2 at level 6 of the spell. The activation attract would work off the same mechanic as attraction does now, but anyone linier with the sacrier on the other 3 sides get attracted 4 cells.

 
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Score : 3363
Electricotter|2012-05-16 17:15:44

A quick summary of what we have gathered from the community thus far, is as follows:
  • Vital Punishment is useless.
  • Sacrier's Foot and Assault are outdated spells.
  • Movement Ability for the Sacrier is too important.
  • Weapon damage is more important to this class than most others.

Sums up my feelings quite well.

Beard's Coagulation might be a good replacement for Vital Punish, though the mechanics seem too complicated and overpowered. I think something simpler that could fight off erosion could be proposed, though I'm in no mood to think up the details - maybe a high AP spell that regains half of the eroded max HP for some price, e.g. weakened state or %weakness?

Sacs seem too reliant on the elemental spells - I don't know a single class that uses Leek, Moon Hammer, Cawwot and Chafer equally often.

Foot and Assault definitely need improvement, but I see changing Foot to a str version of Dissolution seems redundant. They could use a small AoE, increased damage and/or a useful stat steal (like dodge or lock).

Having a spell cause the weakened state in an enemy might be too unbalancing for PvP (so far Wasta is the only way to make an enemy weakend).

I really like the proposal of adding the damage effect to the map manipulation spells, though this would be a significant change requiring a lot of rebalancing.
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Score : 3034
Bujax|2012-05-16 23:18:39
Electricotter|2012-05-16 17:15:44

A quick summary of what we have gathered from the community thus far, is as follows:
  • Vital Punishment is useless.
  • Sacrier's Foot and Assault are outdated spells.
  • Movement Ability for the Sacrier is too important.
  • Weapon damage is more important to this class than most others.

Sums up my feelings quite well.

Beard's Coagulation might be a good replacement for Vital Punish, though the mechanics seem too complicated and overpowered. I think something simpler that could fight off erosion could be proposed, though I'm in no mood to think up the details - maybe a high AP spell that regains half of the eroded max HP for some price, e.g. weakened state or %weakness?

Sacs seem too reliant on the elemental spells - I don't know a single class that uses Leek, Moon Hammer, Cawwot and Chafer equally often.

Foot and Assault definitely need improvement, but I see changing Foot to a str version of Dissolution seems redundant. They could use a small AoE, increased damage and/or a useful stat steal (like dodge or lock).

Having a spell cause the weakened state in an enemy might be too unbalancing for PvP (so far Wasta is the only way to make an enemy weakend).

I really like the proposal of adding the damage effect to the map manipulation spells, though this would be a significant change requiring a lot of rebalancing.
About sacs foot: Really dodge and lock debuffs, every build of sacrier generally has nimble punishment maxed for the lock and dodge. There are not many people that can walk from a sac. Dodge and lock debuffs is the last thing a sacrier player needs. Specialy in dungeons with creatures that do negitive lock and dodge of 100. We need tanking spells, and erosion stacking is increased damage.

Weakened state for the res' and erosion soak, useless! Taking away the sacriers primary damage (weapon) will mean many people will not use it. Whats the point when it halfs my damage output per turn. You could kill the enemy faster by not casting it. No other characters that use weapons as there main sorce of damage have such stupid restrictions from any of there spells.

Coagulation without ressistance backing it up would have to be an erosion soak of about 300-400 per hit to make it even worth casting. More so for the pvm, specialy with the sacrifice nerf coming and the damage that the end game monsters do.

Why would having the ability to cause weakend state be too powerful? You where just trying to convince me a weakened state on coagulation was a good idea. So whitch is it.... ?

Plus exactly no one but the panda can do it. So why not the sacrier as well? There are classes like the panda, enu's and cras that rarelly use there weapons.
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Score : 3363

Entering weakened state seems a good way to "pay" for some sort of a benefit. However, that benefit must be worth it. Currently it totally isn't in the Vital Punishment and is debatable in Reinforced Protection. I think a sac would gladly "pay" a turn of not CCing (or more) for regaining half of the eroded max hp (not healing, just moving the max hp up). I think this spell would have primarily PvM usage for long battles and with someone there to heal. (Personal note: I play a feca and an eni, my wife plays a sac. We often engage in long battles with high level mobs, and her 5k hp sac is brought down to max 2k hp by the end of a fight).

Causing a weakend state to an enemy is an extreme "game-changer" in PvP. So far only a Wasta can do it, and I think players don't complain as much about it because a) it's a summon spell, and b) they have to worry bout dodging the wasta first, then they can worry about the lack of CC. A sac being able to directly cause a weakened state on someone would be comparably overpowered to an enu being able to cause gravity.

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Score : 3034
Bujax|2012-05-17 00:05:18
Entering weakened state seems a good way to "pay" for some sort of a benefit. However, that benefit must be worth it. Currently it totally isn't in the Vital Punishment and is debatable in Reinforced Protection. I think a sac would gladly "pay" a turn of not CCing (or more) for regaining half of the eroded max hp (not healing, just moving the max hp up). I think this spell would have primarily PvM usage for long battles and with someone there to heal. (Personal note: I play a feca and an eni, my wife plays a sac. We often engage in long battles with high level mobs, and her 5k hp sac is brought down to max 2k hp by the end of a fight).

Causing a weakend state to an enemy is an extreme "game-changer" in PvP. So far only a Wasta can do it, and I think players don't complain as much about it because a) it's a summon spell, and b) they have to worry bout dodging the wasta first, then they can worry about the lack of CC. A sac being able to directly cause a weakened state on someone would be comparably overpowered to an enu being able to cause gravity.

But letting an iop hit a sac for two turns straight with gigar or peccary blade, so it never gets to punish at all is fair? We all know peccary hits as hard as a level 200 sacriers punishment on the crit (1500-2k). An iop can do that twice a turn.

Heres a sugestion, I concead weaknes on coagulation, if you agree that combined fecca shields should make the fecca weakened too. They are both tanking spells of equal power. Coagulation resists the erosion, the fecca combined shields reduce the incoming damage. Same differance, so should the fecca have a weakness state for combined fecca shields?

Besides 1 round of weakened state in pvp will loose me what I gained and more in damage and erosion, while my damage is halfed. Wouldn't cast it, I would just go for the kill. Weakened state on the sacrier is pointless on any class for that matter.

Causing weakness state on a player once every 2 turns isn't overpowered. Thought you where encouraging spell use? This suggestion dosen't give the sacriers enemy the choice but to use spells one turn out of every two. A tanking spell...... Remember the silly restrictions on punishment. You can't cast it for two turns from the start of battle. With this modification, the penalty is justified.

Again I will say; No other class that rellies on weapons has weakness state causing spells. We all ready have enough penalties through self applied erosion.
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Score : 3363

A CC nerf has been mentioned a couple times by the French (it's likely to happen after the Goultaminator and will probably be balanced by decreased monster hp). The nerf might decrease the damage overall and/or introduce hits/turn limits to weapons.

I could live with a 1 turn weakness for a 4 turn shield. I could also see weakness as a reasonable payment for immunity (though I'm happy it's not). Also, to be clear, I'm not proposing the weakness effect for your version of coagulation (which I understand temporarily shields and reduces erosion), but for my proposal to heal and regain 50% of the eroded max hp.

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Score : 427

Make vital punishment reduce erosion by 5% at level 1 and 10% at level 6. If the total erosion goes under 10%, keep it at 10% (you can't have 0% erosion just by casting vital punishment level 6, or 5% by casting vital and some elementary punishment). Everything else remains the same at all levels. This way you can have 2 elementary punishments with only 10% erosion, but with the downside of weakened state.

Give assault a staff area of effect and sacrier's foot a 1 Linear area of effect (the square it's cast on and the one behind). Both benefit from the 10% damage increase in the central cell of the AoE, as usual. Increase the minimum damage on both spells, and make them 3 AP at all levels. Increase the agility steal of sacrier's foot a bit. Fix the critical hit at 1/35 for all levels, not only level 6.

For example:
Sacrier's foot (level 1). Non boostable range, 3 AP at all levels, 1 Linear AoE at all levels
1. 7-10 damage (earth), steals 12 agility (3 turns) | 12 damage (earth), steals 14 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
2. 9-12 damage (earth), steals 14 agility (3 turns) | 14 damage (earth), steals 16 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
3. 11-14 damage (earth), steals 16 agility (3 turns) | 16 damage (earth), steals 18 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
4. 13-16 damage (earth), steals 18 agility (3 turns) | 18 damage (earth), steals 20 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
5. 15-18 damage (earth), steals 20 agility (3 turns) | 20 damage (earth), steals 22 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
6. 19-22 damage (earth), steals 25 agility (3 turns) | 25 damage (earth), steals 30 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |

One problem would be that the spell is currently non-linear and gets 2 range from the class ring, and that doesn't go well with a linear AoE. Not like many people use the class ring, but it should have to be nerfed to linear range.

Assault (level 9). Non boostable, 3 AP at all levels, linear range, 1 Staff AoE at all levels
1. 9-12 damage (air) | 13-16 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
2. 10-13 damage (air) | 14-17 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
3. 11-14 damage (air) | 15-18 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
4. 12-15 damage (air) | 16-19 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
5. 13-16 damage (air) | 17-20 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
6. 16-19 damage (air) | 22-25 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |

Is not much, but the damage is slightly higher on average, and it gets an AoE.

Make BTM and life transfer heal always, not only on crits, just a bit less. Reduce the cooldown of life transfer on all levels, and put a 2 casts per turn restriction to level 6.

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Score : 3034
pablomathe|2012-05-17 08:38:45
Make vital punishment reduce erosion by 5% at level 1 and 10% at level 6. If the total erosion goes under 10%, keep it at 10% (you can't have 0% erosion just by casting vital punishment level 6, or 5% by casting vital and some elementary punishment). Everything else remains the same at all levels. This way you can have 2 elementary punishments with only 10% erosion, but with the downside of weakened state.

Give assault a staff area of effect and sacrier's foot a 1 Linear area of effect (the square it's cast on and the one behind). Both benefit from the 10% damage increase in the central cell of the AoE, as usual. Increase the minimum damage on both spells, and make them 3 AP at all levels. Increase the agility steal of sacrier's foot a bit. Fix the critical hit at 1/35 for all levels, not only level 6.

For example:
Sacrier's foot (level 1). Non boostable range, 3 AP at all levels, 1 Linear AoE at all levels
1. 7-10 damage (earth), steals 12 agility (3 turns) | 12 damage (earth), steals 14 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
2. 9-12 damage (earth), steals 14 agility (3 turns) | 14 damage (earth), steals 16 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
3. 11-14 damage (earth), steals 16 agility (3 turns) | 16 damage (earth), steals 18 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
4. 13-16 damage (earth), steals 18 agility (3 turns) | 18 damage (earth), steals 20 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
5. 15-18 damage (earth), steals 20 agility (3 turns) | 20 damage (earth), steals 22 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |
6. 19-22 damage (earth), steals 25 agility (3 turns) | 25 damage (earth), steals 30 agility (3 turns) | 1-1 Range | 1/35 CH |

One problem would be that the spell is currently non-linear and gets 2 range from the class ring, and that doesn't go well with a linear AoE. Not like many people use the class ring, but it should have to be nerfed to linear range.

Assault (level 9). Non boostable, 3 AP at all levels, linear range, 1 Staff AoE at all levels
1. 9-12 damage (air) | 13-16 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
2. 10-13 damage (air) | 14-17 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
3. 11-14 damage (air) | 15-18 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
4. 12-15 damage (air) | 16-19 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
5. 13-16 damage (air) | 17-20 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |
6. 16-19 damage (air) | 22-25 damage (air) | 1-3 Range | 1/35 CH |

Is not much, but the damage is slightly higher on average, and it gets an AoE.

Make BTM and life transfer heal always, not only on crits, just a bit less. Reduce the cooldown of life transfer on all levels, and put a 2 casts per turn restriction to level 6.
The damage is two low on both ideas and mathematically don't get optimum gain from the stat' punishments. Life transfair is a pointless spell and needs replacing instead of tweaking. End game you will rarely be able to use it effectively. The stealing of agility on sacs foot is pointless and dated. As a sacrier player and most sac players I hate weakened state and will never use your version of vitality punishment. I would kill my enemy without casting it faster. My opinion.

@Bujax I wouldn't accept a weakened state on the sacrier lightly and never will. It is counter productive to its mechanic and would just mean people wouldn't use the spell. Just like vitality punishment not getting used now. I disagree with your idea because in pvp/pvm, for the turn you gain the erosion back and go into the weakened state, you would just loose it all in incoming damage and erosion after casting that turn (also shutting down the sacriers turn to cast it as you said have it "High ap cost"). In pvp people will capitalize on it, In pvm loose it within one turn of sacrifice and more. Pointless waste of ap.The reward is not worth the cost. It would also still make the sacrier the worst tank as it is now, in comparison to the eca's repercussion, iops vitality, feccas defences, eni's preventive word and the masks (sp) shields. There is no weakened state on these spells so why should the sacrier get weakened state for casting a similer spell?

This debate is going to go nowhere anyway. The dev's have already made up there mind on the nerfs and changes. How about you give us them to talk about? As this whole thing is too little to late and an answer to me raging at the development priorities and my concerns that the zenith / community didn't get to air opinion on the class in time. Instead we got the fecca thread and no time to be heard. How's that for relevance to upcoming changes?

Just out of curiosity how many of the sacrier ideas have been translated and sent to the devs? As the sacrier thread in the "suggestions section" discussion has been one of the most veiwed threads on the forum since the point of the zenith forming. But I am sure you know that being impartial and such... wink (strong but civil questions, will I get censored for asking them?)
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Score : 11100
Bujax|2012-05-17 00:05:18
Entering weakened state seems a good way to "pay" for some sort of a benefit. However, that benefit must be worth it. Currently it totally isn't in the Vital Punishment and is debatable in Reinforced Protection. I think a sac would gladly "pay" a turn of not CCing (or more) for regaining half of the eroded max hp (not healing, just moving the max hp up).This is supposed to be a tanking spell and not being able to attack beats the purpose especially since this is would be a useless spell without a good healer. Sacriers pay for a lot of things already. That's the problem with the class there is too much unnecessary restriction. As a Sacrier , I would never use anything that would put me to Weakened State. I think this spell would have primarily PvM usage for long battles and with someone there to heal. (Personal note: I play a feca and an eni, my wife plays a sac. We often engage in long battles with high level mobs, and her 5k hp sac is brought down to max 2k hp by the end of a fight). Useless without a good healer . Basically a spell which relies on certain classes and builds in order to be effective in the slightest. While the spell could be kind of useful in PvM , it would be pretty useless in PvP. Sacrificing a turn of damage wouldn't be worth it.
Causing a weakend state to an enemy is an extreme "game-changer" in PvP. So far only a Wasta can do it, and I think players don't complain as much about it because a) it's a summon spell, and b) they have to worry bout dodging the wasta first, then they can worry about the lack of CC. A sac being able to directly cause a weakened state on someone would be comparably overpowered to an enu being able to cause gravity.
I'll use this to explain why it's bad to make any Sacrier spell put him into weakened state. It's true that going into Weakened State is a real game-changer especiall in PvP.Isn't it unfair for Sacriers, which arguably rely on their weapon more than any other classes, go into Weakened Spell in order to fulfil their role as tanks something which due to the row of nerfs and spell restrictions, they don't do good enough as it is?
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AngryBeardIvI|2012-05-17 10:41:59
As a sacrier player and most sac players I hate weakened state and will never use your version of vitality punishment. I would kill my enemy without casting it faster. My opinion.
In my case I don't consider that sacriers have to be the main damage dealer if it can tank effectively. To me, weakened state on vital punishment would mean using air and chance punishment with only 10% erosion base, meaning I could lock and steal life.
Also, I really disagree when you say life transfer is pointless.

Now, do sacriers really need a big buff? Right now sacriers doubles as map manipulation and damage dealer, and are basically on every team. Even if weapon skills are nerfed and casts per turn are limited, all that map manipulation has to be worth something, right? Tha's why I proposed slightly higher damage (and AoE) for sacrier's foot and assault, it's not even like you won't be able to use weapons.
Keep in mind that this is a nerf for all classes, and that they'll also nerf monsters' HP.
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Score : 11100
pablomathe|2012-05-17 17:31:44
AngryBeardIvI|2012-05-17 10:41:59
As a sacrier player and most sac players I hate weakened state and will never use your version of vitality punishment. I would kill my enemy without casting it faster. My opinion.
In my case I don't consider that sacriers have to be the main damage dealer if it can tank effectively. To me, weakened state on vital punishment would mean using air and chance punishment with only 10% erosion base, meaning I could lock and steal life.
Also, I really disagree when you say life transfer is pointless.

Now, do sacriers really need a big buff? Right now sacriers doubles as map manipulation and damage dealer, and are basically on every team. Even if weapon skills are nerfed and casts per turn are limited, all that map manipulation has to be worth something, right? Tha's why I proposed slightly higher damage (and AoE) for sacrier's foot and assault, it's not even like you won't be able to use weapons.
Keep in mind that this is a nerf for all classes, and that they'll also nerf monsters' HP.
In the cases when erosion reduction is needed, trying to tank with dissolution is usually the worst thing you can do.

And yes Sacriers DO need a buff. After the limitations on Coop and Trans, there is just no more strategy left for the class. Vital Punishment,assault,sacriers foot and arguably Life Transfer and useless and outdated. Yes Coop and Trans are two good map manipulation spells but they are too restrictive to be of much use when combined. Most Sacriers nowadays just cast stat punishments and weapon skill of choice and weapon Spam.
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AngryBeardIvI|2012-05-17 10:41:59

This debate is going to go nowhere anyway. The dev's have already made up there mind on the nerfs and changes. How about you give us them to talk about? As this whole thing is too little to late and an answer to me raging at the development priorities and my concerns that the zenith / community didn't get to air opinion on the class in time. Instead we got the fecca thread and no time to be heard. How's that for relevance to upcoming changes?

Just out of curiosity how many of the sacrier ideas have been translated and sent to the devs? As the sacrier thread in the "suggestions section" discussion has been one of the most veiwed threads on the forum since the point of the zenith forming. But I am sure you know that being impartial and such... wink (strong but civil questions, will I get censored for asking them?)
I wasn't going to dignify this with a response. But I decided it would be a good chance to make an example.

This thread has nothing to do with you Angry, aside from the fact that you play a Sac.
That being said, if you find this debate to be pointless you needn't participate.

We have made the intent of our actions clear.
I have given the reason for this thread in clear language already.

You are free to go back to your Sac thread in the Suggestions section if you feel this way.
We value the opinions of EVERY member of our community (this extends to other communities as well as far as I am concerned).

Will you get sanctioned for asking them? No. Will you get sanctioned for breaking other forum rules such as baiting, trolling, and/or derailing a topic? It is quite likely.

I have always treated you with respect and good will. It is not for this reason I that implore YOU to stick to the topic at hand in a civil way.
It is for the sake of this discussion and for the SACRIER that I implore the COMMUNITY to keep on topic and do so with respect.

Time is VERY MUCH of the essence. I will reiterate:
Balancing is an ongoing process. While the Sac is currently being looked at and discussed by the development team, it is of the UTMOST importance that our voice be heard.

Also it is well understood, I am sure, that we are not at liberty to discuss things that we are not at liberty to discuss. If there are things we aren't at liberty to discuss.
We are working hard, though you may not always see it.

We have faith in our community.
Do you have any faith in us?

@ Vincent and Pablo
You both make a good case.

I am of the opinion that the Sac has far too many roles and it is for this reason that they get the nerf stick too often.
Angry has mentioned how Lock/Dodge isn't needed. But to this end I disagree. A Str spell having Lock/Dodge steal makes it so one needn't use/level Nimble Punishment.
This reduces Erosion, which as both Vincent and Angry will agree, I am sure, is an issue that haunts the Sac. Were Erosion a more integral part of the class this would help significantly
in their balancing.

I think that Angry is going in the right direction with the concept of an Erosion infusion into Sacrier spells. I would think that many others could see the benefits of this synergism.

Furthermore isn't a review of the Sacriers class roles also important?

Perhaps we could start at the start and throw down a synopsis of our individual concept of the Sac?

How would you rank and define the Sac's roles?
What spells/mechanics hinder or enable these roles?

What sort of catalyst is needed to alleviate the classes main flaws (as identified in the OP, or ones of your choosing)?

Is it reasonable to be able to hit hard, heal, manipulate the map, shield allies, and tank equally as well as each other?
Not to imply that they do so now. But different players play a Sac for different reasons. Some want the healing boosted, more want the damage boosted (who doesn't like boosted damage? haha),
while others simply want them to be great tanks again.

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I do not personally play a Sacrier. That being said, I would like to give my opinion on the class as a whole. Starting with Electricotter's questions.

How would you rank and define the Sac's roles? Sacriers as a formidable tanking class, by this I infer that they are the parties meatshield, they are a heavy hitter, they are protectors in their own right; however I will always prefer the 'old school' Sacriers to today's Sacrier. Sacriers have the benefit and downfall of only having 1 build which is Vitality, and everything else is what I would consider a hybrid to Vitality. The point of a Sacrier is to take the brunt of the damage in a fight and deal it back to the enemies in turn, the more blood they shed, the more viscous they are supposed to become.

What spells/mechanics hinder or enable these roles? I believe that Sacriers get too much in the way damage right now. The erosion costs for using a Sacriers spells are a bit over the top to me. How is a Sacrier supposed to facilitate their roles if they can be quickly dwindled down in a bad fight or in a focused assault? Every class receives a 10% erosion penalty each and every fight, some classes can increase that base erosion on a singular turn bases (example would be Eniripsas casting Word of Sacrifice and getting hit with an added 10% erosion for that turn, higher if the spell is used more than once), but the Sacrier gets hit with what I feel is a typical minimum of 15% (they do use at least 1 punishment for stat buffing every time it becomes available) to am maximum of 30% (if they use all of their punishments at once). From there you can add in extra erosion from PvP characters like Iops and Ecaflips, to mobs like those found on Sakai. The erosion penalty should be lessened for a Sacrier for using their spells (but I would be in favor of completely removing erosion, or at least removing all erosion penalties for spell use... add it to weapon use if there has to be a erosion penalty for playing the class), I would be happy to say 1-3% for punishment uses, and no erosion penalties for use of these spells upon a critical hit of the spell. That and the Displaced state really needs to get lost...

I do not want to pigeon hole the class into uselessness, but a lot of the griefing aspects of the class is based upon specific builds. Recent changes like the water resistance increase at Frigost Mastogob mobs, the cast restrictions on spells that inhibit the vampiric build, the heavy reliance on Close Combat for the strength and agility builds; hell for any build of the Sacrier since they have less range than a tofu on drugs. How is a class supposed to be diverse if every time the class turns around they have tunred to face yet another restriction.

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Score : 11100
Electricotter|2012-05-17 17:50:53

  • How would you rank and define the Sac's roles?
  1. I will side with Leyline on this. I see my class as an aggresive tank which enemies are trying to stay away from. We take the damage and then deal it back.
  2. Map manipulation is a very important aspect of ours which enables us to get in the way and tank effectively
    • What spells/mechanics hinder or enable these roles?
    1. There is just too much erosion as it is now. I think Angry is on the right track when it comes to this. Instead of getting rid of it we could make a new mechanism that will allow us to take advantage of it and punish the enemy for harming us (just in a different way).
    2. Something else which has to change is the Displaced State. The limitation put on Coop and Trans blocks many strategy options. I know it gets abused in teams where Sacriers coop with an enemy , put him in the middle of his team and then switch back with a summon in order for his team to gang that one person, but there many combos like this that other classes can do..
    3. Another problem of the class is in my opinion several outdated spells. Sacrier's foot, assault and vital punishment mainly. There is just hardly any use for them especially on end game.
    4. Life Transfer is kind of pointless if you have a good eni and becomes cheap when cast several times a turn but useless when cast one.
    5. Flying sword is WEAK. It's main purpose is to make the enemy waste 2-3 ap every 4 turns.
    6. Lastly the final and arguably the biggest problem of the class is the immense amount of restriction put into our spells. We have horrid range,getting close to the target is very hard with current coop/trans, our summon doesn't help us in doing so, we rely a lot on elementary spells, the amount of erosion is too much and punishes us for doing our job. You can literally spend a turn or two doing nothing. Even fury has restrictions.The stacking 1% poison damage for every hit that we take doesn't help in using it as a way to fill our turns.You can't cast Punishment the first 2 turns or the 2 turns after being Spiritual Leashed by an Osa. What's the point of having a spell called Punishment if we can't punish our enemy ?

    • What sort of catalyst is needed to alleviate the classes main flaws (as identified in the OP, or ones of your choosing)?
    1. Update Sacrier's Foot and Assault : Give them some sort of useful effect and/or increase base damage so they can actually gain from our elemental punishments.
    2. Change Vital Punishment completely: It's useless. We are aggresive tanks. There is no way we will give away our main source of damage for two turns just to reduce a useless amount of 200 damage per turn.
    3. Buff Flying Sword a bit: There is no need for a very drastic change. More life so it won't die on 1 hit and higher chance resists so it won't be abused with BTM. It could also gain the 2 hits per turn back.
    4. Get rid of the 1% stackable poison damage to the sacrier per hit taken per cast: Especially now that we struggle to keep our life up.
    5. Do something about Cooperation and Transposition: The Displaced state blocks many of our strategy options and restrics us greately when it comes to their use
    6. .Get rid of the 2 turns cooldown of Punishment on the start of the fight: There is no reason for not doing so and there was no reason for putting the cooldown in the first place.
    7. Add a new spell that will allow us to use reduce erosion and use it to our advantage: I love Angry's idea about Coagulation. This could replace Vital Punishment.
    8. I would also like to see Life Transfer replaced with something that will help us tank more effectively but I will leave this blank since there are Sacriers that for some reason like the spell.


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    Electricotter|2012-05-17 17:50:53
    AngryBeardIvI|2012-05-17 10:41:59

    This debate is going to go nowhere anyway. The dev's have already made up there mind on the nerfs and changes. How about you give us them to talk about? As this whole thing is too little to late and an answer to me raging at the development priorities and my concerns that the zenith / community didn't get to air opinion on the class in time. Instead we got the fecca thread and no time to be heard. How's that for relevance to upcoming changes?

    Just out of curiosity how many of the sacrier ideas have been translated and sent to the devs? As the sacrier thread in the "suggestions section" discussion has been one of the most veiwed threads on the forum since the point of the zenith forming. But I am sure you know that being impartial and such... wink (strong but civil questions, will I get censored for asking them?)
    I wasn't going to dignify this with a response. But I decided it would be a good chance to make an example.

    This thread has nothing to do with you Angry, aside from the fact that you play a Sac.
    That being said, if you find this debate to be pointless you needn't participate.

    We have made the intent of our actions clear.
    I have given the reason for this thread in clear language already.

    You are free to go back to your Sac thread in the Suggestions section if you feel this way.
    We value the opinions of EVERY member of our community (this extends to other communities as well as far as I am concerned).

    Will you get sanctioned for asking them? No. Will you get sanctioned for breaking other forum rules such as baiting, trolling, and/or derailing a topic? It is quite likely.

    I have always treated you with respect and good will. It is not for this reason I that implore YOU to stick to the topic at hand in a civil way.
    It is for the sake of this discussion and for the SACRIER that I implore the COMMUNITY to keep on topic and do so with respect.

    Time is VERY MUCH of the essence. I will reiterate:
    Balancing is an ongoing process. While the Sac is currently being looked at and discussed by the development team, it is of the UTMOST importance that our voice be heard.

    Also it is well understood, I am sure, that we are not at liberty to discuss things that we are not at liberty to discuss. If there are things we aren't at liberty to discuss.
    We are working hard, though you may not always see it.

    We have faith in our community.
    Do you have any faith in us?

    @ Vincent and Pablo
    You both make a good case.

    I am of the opinion that the Sac has far too many roles and it is for this reason that they get the nerf stick too often.
    Angry has mentioned how Lock/Dodge isn't needed. But to this end I disagree. A Str spell having Lock/Dodge steal makes it so one needn't use/level Nimble Punishment.
    This reduces Erosion, which as both Vincent and Angry will agree, I am sure, is an issue that haunts the Sac. Were Erosion a more integral part of the class this would help significantly
    in their balancing.

    I think that Angry is going in the right direction with the concept of an Erosion infusion into Sacrier spells. I would think that many others could see the benefits of this synergism.

    Furthermore isn't a review of the Sacriers class roles also important?

    Perhaps we could start at the start and throw down a synopsis of our individual concept of the Sac?

    How would you rank and define the Sac's roles?
    What spells/mechanics hinder or enable these roles?

    What sort of catalyst is needed to alleviate the classes main flaws (as identified in the OP, or ones of your choosing)?

    Is it reasonable to be able to hit hard, heal, manipulate the map, shield allies, and tank equally as well as each other?
    Not to imply that they do so now. But different players play a Sac for different reasons. Some want the healing boosted, more want the damage boosted (who doesn't like boosted damage? haha),
    while others simply want them to be great tanks again.

    @ bold: Masks, cras, iops and pandas. They can do that and don't have to wait 5 rounds to achieve maximum damage. There spells for manipulation have little to no cool down or moderate cast restrictions. < ----- this sentence says it all really.

    Sacrier role: Berserker tank, we get hit to get stronger and are meant to be tanks (biggest hp class). Yet we loose more hp faster than any other class. Oh and have less defence than any other damage dealer / tanking class. Erosion synergy seams like a logical way to go.

    We have no real tanking ability bar swap, attraction and agility punishment. Switch tactics are clunky and unfun since the tran's / coop' nerfs. More so with the likely incoming sacrifice nerf (on french forums check it out). Even more so if any of the summon spells in the elementary thread get changed as suggested.

    Dodge / lock malus on abilities is useless with the debuffs monsters give at end game (in the negitive 100's) and any monster below 160 you can lock with one to two rounds of agility punishment. Any sacrier who is worth there spot on a team will have nimble punishment leveled, thats just a fact.

    I am debating here for one reason... To see if it makes a differance.
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    AngryBeardIvI|2012-05-17 21:21:18
    @ bold: Masks, cras, iops and pandas. They can do that and don't have to wait 5 rounds to achieve maximum damage. There spells for manipulation have little to no cool down or moderate cast restrictions. < ----- this sentence says it all really.
    You are greatly overestimating the capacities of those clases. Iops don't heal and don't shield, they give a vitality bonus that is absurdly small if you use it on allies; intimidation and blow are not close to something you could call "good" map manipulation.
    Cras don't heal, shield or tank.
    Pandas can protect one ally from damage by carrying it, so that's the closest you can get to a variation of sacrifice; the healing they provide is insignificant unless you are stalling the fight for many turns.
    Masqueraiders are the only ones who fit (except for the heal part). Yes, masqueraiders have good map manipulation, nice shields, nice damage and in theory the classic mask is made for tanking. Is the third class that is made for tanking, after fecas and sacriers. Yet you'll only see fecas and masqueraiders acting as a support for the sacrier, who does the tanking all by itself on every one man team.

    I have seen groups without osamodas to resurrect, without fecas to shield, without decent MP loss, even without eniripsas; but not without a sacrier. That tells me something about sacriers in groups.

    Finally, here goes an easy suggestion: make percentual resistances gained from spells reduce erosion, since according to the 2.5 changelog erosion ignored only shield effects (as in fecas' armors, toad, mummification, etc).

    A 5500 HP sacrier on 50% resistances and 50% erosion could take 22000 damage (calculated at 0% resistances) before getting to 1 max life. If you don't like such extreme cases, it'd still be 14000 damage before getting to 2000 max life, and of course a lot more wih lower erosion: 35000 damage to get from 5500 max life to 2000 max life on 20% erosion.
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