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Rogue Balancing

By surgray - FORMER SUBSCRIBER - May 27, 2012, 00:48:57

Rogues started off on very shaky ground. They were the first new class and everyone wanted to try them but initial balance issues resulted in no one sticking with their new characters, causing them to be very underrepresented. There have been major changes to Rogues since then that have greatly increased their power as well as playability. The people that have stayed with the class have found themselves with strong characters with a strategic playstyle while some others still do not understand them, thinking that they are too complicated, or take too long to do any damage.

It has come up before that certain buffs are too difficult to utilize, and that the direct damage spells are too weak. Some might say that the class is now balanced overall and these downfalls are a conscious design choice to counter their versatility and amazing potential.

The last update had a lot of changes to the Rogues, aiming to polish them up. Are Rogues now in a good place?

Can each element of build match up to the others?

Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?

Are Bombs viable at low and high levels for both PvE and PvP?

Can Rogues actually make fair use of their buffs and debuffs in practice?

Did they lose anything as they have changed over time that you just cannot live without?

Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it?

As there are so few players of Rogues it is important to gather a wide opinion. Even if your only experience with the class is toying with the idea of making one or not having a clue how they just killed your entire team. It all contributes to our community’s perception of the class.

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Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it?

My issue with the class has to do with how difficult it is to start off a Rogue character. I tried them out as soon as they were first released, and I had a lot of trouble figuring out the awkwardly-ranged spells and bombs. Once I got the hang of it, I felt that fights were taking a little longer than what I would consider reasonable for that level, and the awkward ranges and AoE's were making the fights a little harder than they should have been.

Of course, that was all last year. I tried her out again this year because I was looking at different classes to possibly succeed my current main (love the xp bonus update!!!). At level 30, with a couple of spells leveled up, I still felt that PvM was way overcomplicated as a result of the awkward spells and mechanics even with that fresh set of eyes.

It's no secret that Rogues are a force to be reckoned with in end-game/Goult-style PvP. Their mechanics are truly marvelous and really get you to think tactically, which I think is absolutely wonderful. But, I believe that at the very first levels, it is way too hard to get situated as a Rogue. I felt that it would have been way too hard and time consuming to even attempt something like that while soloing, because all the various spells and mechanics are way way way too hard to effectively utilize with low level sets (lacking good stats, vitality, and additional AP/MP).

So, I gave up on her. I made a Cra, and that's going swimmingly. If only I had had more time to play during the past few weekends... Anyway, as a summary, I think that Rogues are way too hard to start off with compared to any of the other available classes. Rogues are obviously a force to be reckoned with a completed build, but they fall short for the entire time beforehand.

I'm not very sure how one would go about fixing this... Low level balancing is an extremely delicate thing, and there's always that chance of screwing things around at the low levels that have an adverse effect on end-game play... I suppose I sort of answered your question about bombs at low levels, but a bit expanded: Rogue spells in general at lower level PvM are not viable.
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Another question that I personally would like to have the community answer:
How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly.

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"Another question that I personally would like to have the community answer:
How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly."

I use bombs for direct damage when I want to finish an enemy and only have 3ap to spare. And i'm going to ask that you keep it that way. I'd rather be forced to think strategically rather than have spamming bombs on top of enemies be much more efficient.

"The last update had a lot of changes to the Rogues, aiming to polish them up. Are Rogues now in a good place? "

I think that they are in a good place place now, their damage is strong when bombs have built up, they have a reasonable selection of counter classes and are able to solo/work in a team reasonably well for both PvM and PvP

"Can each element of build match up to the others?"

I can't say much for PvM, but in PvP I think chance and Int are too weak due to having inefficient abilities. I think for 5AP blunderbuss should deal more damage and Extraction should have no LoS or deal more damage than bombs.

"Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?"

Yes. It can be extremely high when bombs are fully built however you have to consider that bombs can be killed, bombs need to build up and finally, Rogues actually need to get enemies into the bomb path. As for explosion damage, this is perfectly fine. The only thing I would say is too powerful would be bomb explosions when there are 3 fully built bombs on the field.

"Are Bombs viable at low and high levels for both PvE and PvP? "

Bombs are the part of the Rogue which are the most balanced. Though in PvM it can be a pain when enemies attack your bombs then run away immediately after.

"Can Rogues actually make fair use of their buffs and debuffs in practice?"

Powder is good but risky to use, Countdown is even more risky, especially when the bombs are in a chain and Overload in my opinion is near impossible to use in any way except removing debuffs on yourself. Countdown and Kickback's player buffs are excellent however. Kaboom is also extremely useful and stops the Rogue from killing his/her team mates.

"Did they lose anything as they have changed over time that you just cannot live without? "

I'd have to say magnet's heal and the ability to bounce off bombs using remission would be the two parts I miss however I can definitely live without them

"Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it? "

I stopped playing my Rogue because I took a several month break, however once I returned I turned my Rogue into my main.

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The last update had a lot of changes to the Rogues, aiming to polish them up. Are Rogues now in a good place?
I think they are, definitely easier to solo with the changes, more interesting in PvP

Can each element of build match up to the others?
Sadly no, unless we're talking epic level PvP/PvM. The lack of defensive spell doesn't go well with close range attacks. I believe all rogue direct hitting spells (not only agility) should be long range, apart from blunderbuss (because perma damage is a strong debuf). To sum up: we cannot protect ourselves good enough to afford close ranged spells, unless they turn into something powerful and we're supposed to have bombs for that)

Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?
For Explosion yes, Wall damage seems a bit over the top atm tho. Since it was hinted by a French 48 wall damage could be limited to 1 activation per player.. I'll comment on that:
- 1 activation per player further limits the potential moves a rogue can do in one turn. I foresee a LOT of AP mindlessly used as a result: "oops I got 6ap left, only AoE spells unusable without hitting allies or bombs, no more tactical move to do since enemy already entered the wall... I'm going to cc! *cc spam*" very tactical game indeed xD
- I'd suggest either 1 activation per player + the return of 2 bombs of the same type per turn instead of 1bomb/turn limit.
- or decrease the wall damage activation after activation per player:
  1. 100% damage
  2. 60% damage
  3. 30% damage
  4. 10% damage
  5. and more: 0% damage
That means 4 activations to get current wall damage x 2. Seems more balanced this way. Abusing wall damage thanks to sacrier and pandas becomes impossible. there's still the option for the rogue to use wall damage by himself, weighting pros and cons since the damage decrease.

Are Bombs viable at low and high levels for both PvE and PvP?
Low lvl pvp: yes when players ignore them. As soon as a Iop, cra or any other AoE hitter enters the field and is smart enough, bombs are dead fast. I spammed carbine and boomerang a lot since at low lvl, range advantage has a greater impact than bombs.
Low lvl pvm: it's tricky but doable, only from level 100 tho. before that hard to keep bombs alive. I wasn't low lvl anymore when remission was changed so maybe easier now?

High lvl PvM and PvP.: haven't experienced it yet, but it seems to me it requires team support to work efficiently. Bombs do not survive epic lvl mobs hit, so rogue will need the helps of allies to keep the enemy at bay while loading the bombs. In PvP, bombs are a good LoS blocker ^^

Can Rogues actually make fair use of their buffs and debuffs in practice?
Not really, it's only side effect. AP/MP buff is very costly for little effect. Overload is too random. Coutdown is risky. Powder I only ever use to root a bomb, not really for explosion. Kaboom is balanced, I wish it was bigger AoE and lasted longer but it'd make it too powerful.. I'd like to see the buffs and debuffs becoming more meaningful, not sure the devs agree to that tho ^^

Suggestions:
- AP and MP buffs raised to 2AP with explosions, non stackable. 1AP/1MP gained when stepping in a wall (duration 1 turn, non stackable).
- Overload using 2 steps to function, without making the bombs blow
- Countdown using the same 2 steps principle (see quote below)

same AP cost, no AoE, 1 cast per turn, spell level only increase range.
  • when cast first on a bomb, it activates the states chain (same as now)
  • when cast a second time on same target, triggers dispelling according to the state reached, without exploding the bomb
this way it makes it possible to control when you unbewitch, without losing your bombs, not too OP since you can only do it once a turn but you can have several bombs on the field with overload states chain activated.

This mechanism could also apply to countdown (which I still find kinda hard to use or maybe I just don't like taking risks..)
  • when cast for the first time on a bomb: applies "ready to burst" state, duration 1 turn
  • when cast on a bomb with "ready to burst" state, detonate the bomb with a combo bonus
  • if not recast on a bomb with "ready to burst" state, the state disappear and the bomb doesn't explode.

I understand the explosion set up by powder balances out the rooted state, so won't change that.

The best for the end: Lastbreath!
The vitality penalty is a killer in PvP. A 50% perma-damage malus would make much more sense: the rogue would become very vulnerable but not a puppet killable in half a turn like now...

Did they lose anything as they have changed over time that you just cannot live without?
As kakisuka said, nothing terrible. The adaptation was easy and fast.

Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it?
Hell no! I love the bombs too much <3

How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly
3ap left: better than nothing! Bombs are actually the direct hitting spells I like the most xD
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I've been playing a rogue since a few months after they first came out. It has had its ups and downs, and most certainly didn't get off with such a good start. The last update for Rogues gave us a huge buff, wall damage is now based on the bomb's combo bonusses. And even more, magnet, remission and kickback were re-worked. While few could deny that this changes were necessary to make Rogues more viable in both pvp and pvm, it made me wonder if it's not too overpowered. And what better way is there to team up with random persons in the Kollossium, and try it out?

My results were rather interesting. I came to the conclusion that the entire idea of bomb walls and rogues overall being overpowered or not is depending on which classes you are fighting with and against. For example, it is almost impossible to get a decent wall in place if there's a Pandawa in the opposing team (If you assume the Pandawa knows Rogues). There are many more examples of such situations, it's of course a part of the game. Which brings me to your question:

The last update had a lot of changes to the Rogues, aiming to polish them up. Are Rogues now in a good place?
I think Rogues are too dependant on the classes they're fighting with and against. Some classes are immensely crippling a Rogue in its gameplay, like the Pandawa example before and in this example, any range-stealing spell, like Reducing Key or Bat's Eye does a good job to limit the Rogue greatly. Of course it's only natural that some classes are better matched up against certain classes, however, I think that in the Rogue's case, this is rather extreme. I myself as Rogue like fighting Iops and Sacriers, because well, they're just really easy to get into a combo. And a little thing which annoys me personally a great deal is the fact that some classes can counter Roguery by simply casting a 1-ap spell like Slow down on an image, the spell overall is a bit too easy to counter in my opinion. But that might be depending on myself, I see it happening that other have no trouble with the spell at all.
Overall I think Rogues do have a good place within the 14 classes (soon to be 15, woohoo), however, their performance is too dependant on other classes, either opposing or allied.

To answer another question:
How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly.
I never use explobomb for this purpose. It has, for a hybrid build, low damage and no side-effects. I do however, mostly in pvm and still not that often, use grenado and water bomb to drain 2ap/mp in a big aoe for only 3ap. In pvp I never use bombs as target.

And finally, to discuss the potential and power of different rogue builds:
Can each element of build match up to the others?
To answer this, I have a plain "No". The fire based spells of the Rogue can not match up to the ap/mp draining potential of the chance/air spells, neither can it match up to the range. Fire based Rogues do indeed inflict more damage, however, I think Pulsar is too cripling if you take into account the damage it deals (You can't move for an entire turn, which is rather horrible as Rogue, only to deal 600'ish damage? And if you do move, the damage decreases even more) Extraction is decent enough as fire build. The bombs are decent, but in my opinion, they can not match up to the water/air ones which can drain 2ap/mp at level 6. The air/chance builds are decently matched up.

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Imimus|2012-05-29 11:33:14

How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly.
I never use explobomb for this purpose. It has, for a hybrid build, low damage and no side-effects. I do however, mostly in pvm and still not that often, use grenado and water bomb to drain 2ap/mp in a big aoe for only 3ap. In pvp I never use bombs as target.

Can each element of build match up to the others?
To answer this, I have a plain "No". The fire based spells of the Rogue can not match up to the ap/mp draining potential of the chance/air spells, neither can it match up to the range. Fire based Rogues do indeed inflict more damage.... The bombs are decent, but in my opinion, they can not match up to the water/air ones which can drain 2ap/mp at level 6. The air/chance builds are decently matched up.
This is one of my problems as well.
I liked the Fire Rogue, but loss of heals really took something away in my opinion.
Not only is healing ones bombs important in many tiers and types of gameplay, but the additional ally support was wonderful.

I would like to see Kaboom grant AP/MP to allies as it does now...however it should also grant healing from Explobomb and Explobomb walls.
I don't think it should be the same as the damage these would put out as that can be some rather intense heals.

Perhaps instead, if Explobomb were to target an ally, in terms of direct casting, the effect would be an AoE heal as opposed to AoE damage.
In this way one could heal their bombs, allies, and potentially themselves.
This increased survival potential would make some of the ranged concerns be eased. Combined with Extraction one could keep their HP at a more CC worthy level.
(Though CC really shouldn't be the focus.)
Explobomb having a 1/turn limit would keep this from being overpowered.
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Ilovebidou|2012-05-29 11:05:11

Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?
For Explosion yes, Wall damage seems a bit over the top atm tho. Since it was hinted by a French 48 wall damage could be limited to 1 activation per player.. I'll comment on that:
- 1 activation per player further limits the potential moves a rogue can do in one turn. I foresee a LOT of AP mindlessly used as a result: "oops I got 6ap left, only AoE spells unusable without hitting allies or bombs, no more tactical move to do since enemy already entered the wall... I'm going to cc! *cc spam*" very tactical game indeed xD
- I'd suggest either 1 activation per player + the return of 2 bombs of the same type per turn instead of 1bomb/turn limit.
- or decrease the wall damage activation after activation per player:
  1. 100% damage
  2. 60% damage
  3. 30% damage
  4. 10% damage
  5. and more: 0% damage
That means 4 activations to get current wall damage x 2. Seems more balanced this way. Abusing wall damage thanks to sacrier and pandas becomes impossible. there's still the option for the rogue to use wall damage by himself, weighting pros and cons since the damage decrease.
This is actually something that I am strongly against. Rogues don't really have the strongest PvE game because of the high damage of mobs (It's literally impossible to deal max damage with bombs in Mastogob dungeon). So making it so that Rogues aren't able to deal damage via their allies would ruin everything about how they work in a team.

Not only that, but it would also make them hinder their team more. If you've already dealt 4 instances of damage to an enemy, it would allow them to abuse your walls by walking through, attacking your allies then walking back to hide behind the wall where they wouldn't be attackable without your ally hurting themself.

Rogue aren't an incredibly strong class. As i've said in another thread about Rogue balance; AoE, range steal, map manipulation and MP steals all counter the Rogue hard. MP steals stop the Rogue from being able to use kickback/magnet efficiently, map manipulation ruins the bomb placement/kills the rogue themself and AoE allows people to hit the Rogue and their bomb at the same time, or hit multiple bombs. Range makes it so that the Rogue is completely unable to use magnet, kickback, their attack abilities or even dirty trick.
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I think you're maybe misunderstanding Xu-Xu. She means a decrease in damage during one player's turn. And then it automatically resets to 100% once the next character's turn starts.
This is only a measure to weaken the massive damage you can do by pushing an enemy along a wall during one turn, for example, or by using Kickback-Kickback-Magnet all in the same turn. This is frequently seen as overpowered because it can potentially do a lot of damage for a low AP cost. And 4 activations within the very same turn is really a lot.

I think both you and Xu agree that Rogues should keep the ability to use their walls for damage and/or to keep monsters from crossing them, but in moderation. Hence the reset to 100% after each turn.

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I think bombs and walls are pretty balanced now since the last update what I think that needs the most improvement are int and cha spells I have some suggestions for some improvements I'm not saying that they should be done but I'm just trying to think of something so give me your opinion to my suggestions.

1-Blunderbuss should cost 4 AP and it should do an AP loss penalty of 2.

2-Deception's AP cost should be decreased to 3 with a little bit lower damage.

3-Extraction's damage should be decreased and the number of casts per turn per target should be increased to 2 also if necessary you can decrease the range to 2-6.

4-Magnet should attract enemies at least 3 cells so chance spells can be used since the range is too low.

Well, these are my suggestions hope you like them.

-Woobot-

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Playing as a rogue for my main, I've gone through a lot of difficulties, and a lot of criticism. Our bombs, while they do a ton of power after a few turns of placing them, they get killed way too easily... My set has more vitality than most people my lvl, and my bombs can easily be killed by anyone with one attack, and maybe, what? 3 ap for them? That's nothing. Whilst I had to have waited 3 or 4 turns just for my bomb to actually do some damage to actually hurt them... Not to mention to be played correctly, and to get near the opponent when the time comes... As for all the people that say "well, you also have your spells that you can use whilst waiting for the bombs" Well, most of our spells, they cost quite a bit of ap, I'm an agi/cha mix rogue... And so I use carbine quite often... Great range, but the damage it does is just laughable to what others do at higher lvls. So I switched up and made myself a vit/dmg rogue... And while my damage with Carbine is half decent, I rely mostly on my bombs for my damage. But when my bombs get killed so easily and with the little ap people use to kill them, there really isn't a point for me to be using them often. So it all goes back to finding a CC weapon that I can use, and become "OP" with... As sooooo many people at end game resort to. It's sad, how the game spends so much time with spells, yet the higher lvl we go... We don't even use them anymore because they do hardly any damage. Just my two cents worth.

As what I think.. It would be nice for some Res to go on bombs... It would be nice to have some sorta defence for them, other than the trashy remission... Like, you see how Osa's summons got res% right?

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Guys really the rogue is fine the way it is except maybe the spell overload... thats it and i dont care about that 1 issue.. Sure rogues have the potential of being very powerful should you neglect them. But i think this is very fair seeing as how I (primary rogue) have to wait several turns to really use the bombs to a real effectiveness, not to mention due to their very low hp scaling bombs are very killable and often enough i need a mask to vit them or other methods to provide them longevity.

PvP: only inexperienced players dont kill the bombs immediately, PvM: anything really worth fighting end game is very likely to 1 hit them.
So if your concerned about the bombs hitting to hard... kill it.

To those of you who find it too complicated.. they made the class to be very tactical... If you prefer something to be more hack and slash style pick an iop or something... As a rogue i trade my power house hits towards mid to end fight (provided they survive) and thats just the way i prefer to play. Rogues are not to be confused with iops so please dont think they should be played the same.

In relation to a power again ill compare it to the iop mainly the wrath.. as a rogue i have to try to hide bombs behind walls and place them away from enemy hits and keep using my ap every turn to continue building up the power. then once it is ready i need to make sure allies are either safe distance or kaboomed to negate the damage, once it blows... do it again... an iop on the other hand can cast wrath... play as they usually would for a few turns then wrath when they are ready.. no real prep work needed.

So please if we are to make any changes at all to rogue... just have them rewrite the discription for the spell overload as i get people asking me all the time how does it even work.

Electricotter|2012-05-27 14:53:21
Another question that I personally would like to have the community answer:
How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly.
Granted its not a very high source of damage but there have been times where i use it to last hit something that i felt my leek pie wouldnt work with but i didnt have the ap to detonate the bomb after throwing... It wasnt ment to be used all the time but its a nice utility should i need it ya know?
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Frunupulax|2012-05-29 21:53:17
I think you're maybe misunderstanding Xu-Xu. She means a decrease in damage during one player's turn. And then it automatically resets to 100% once the next character's turn starts.
This is only a measure to weaken the massive damage you can do by pushing an enemy along a wall during one turn, for example, or by using Kickback-Kickback-Magnet all in the same turn. This is frequently seen as overpowered because it can potentially do a lot of damage for a low AP cost. And 4 activations within the very same turn is really a lot.

I think both you and Xu agree that Rogues should keep the ability to use their walls for damage and/or to keep monsters from crossing them, but in moderation. Hence the reset to 100% after each turn.
_That isn't what she meant.

"Abusing wall damage thanks to sacrier and pandas becomes impossible."

she's asking for it to only be 4 activations of of wall TOTAL. for the same damage as a mere 3 activations of the wall.

Also, Kickback/Magnet/Magnet isn't a low AP cost. it's 6AP.. sure it deals a lot of damage but you still need to divide that damage over the course of about 8 turns. Which will be spent preparing the bombs for the kill.

 
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The last update had a lot of changes to the Rogues, aiming to polish them up. Are Rogues now in a good place?

Yes, Rogues are now in a good place -- but I do speak as a level 200 Rogue only; the current version of the Rogue class did not exist until some months after I'd hit level 200, and the changes were significant. I am not well informed about the viability of lower-leveled Rogues in their current version.

Rogues are in a better place for a number of reasons: greatly improved wall length, better wall damage, improved manipulation abilities, a more powerful combo bonus system, and improved support spells.

Some support spells are unwieldy or lacking, however. I'll describe this in greater detail later, in regards to the Rogue's buff and debuff spells.

Can each element of build match up to the others?

This is a difficult question, because I have not used many of the Rogue's fire-based spells -- and I've played chance/agility hybrid for as long as I can remember, favoring neither of those elements more heavily than the other.

In a way, all elements are balanced: Fire has high damage, single-target spells, medium range, and no debuffs. Water has medium damage, AoE spells, low range, with Erosion and -AP effects. Air has medium damage, AoE spells, high range, low reliance on line-of-sight attacks, and -MP effects.

Among all of these builds, Water has the weakest range: fire has Leek Pie, air's Carbine and Boomerang Daggers have great range, but water cannot hit further than 5 cells away without using bombs. For this reason, water may be considered the weakest element.

Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?

The Combo Bonus seems perfectly balanced. The AP and turns spent preparing for huge explosions or wall damage balance out the potentially huge damage -- along with the fact that enemies may kill or move the bombs, forcing the Rogue to work even harder to set up walls and combo bonuses.

Are Bombs viable at low and high levels for both PvE and PvP?

For high levels, yes -- 3 AP is a very fair cost for an object which blocks LoS and represents a threat to enemies. Bombs can be fragile against equal-level enemies, but spells like Powder and Remission help bombs remain a bit easier to use against such enemies.

Can Rogues actually make fair use of their buffs and debuffs in practice?

Rogue support spells could use some modification.

One example is Kaboom, the Rogue's level 100 spell. The bonuses given through Kaboom are nice, but don't last long -- and are costly in AP consumption. Kaboom AoE is also smaller than a bomb's AoE, which is not good. It can be difficult to protect teammates from bombs with such a small AoE, and the bomb damage prevention feature is supposed to be one of the spell's strong points. Also, Kaboom does not even protect teammates from thrown (targeted) bombs!

All Rogues over 100 should benefit from a new Kaboom which has an AoE to match a bomb's AoE, and allows buffing (and prevents damage) from thrown bombs. Kaboom is currently lackluster in size and effect, and needs such a modification to be a worthwhile part of the arsenal - especially as a level 100 spell.

A common theme among the new variety of support spells is that Rogues can no longer use spells to heal bombs. I would recommend giving Overload an additional healing ability, perhaps with healing power equal to the older version of Magnet.

Did they lose anything as they have changed over time that you just cannot live without?

Healing ability was quite helpful to have; healing bombs was certainly useful, and the modest teammate heals were occasionally helpful in battle. The ability to buff bombs with Kickback was nice, but is not so necessary with the new Combo Bonus system -- and precious AP is saved, as a result.

Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it?

I had stopped playing my Rogue because I had stopped playing Dofus for a few months, for reasons unrelated to the Rogue class. When I read about the changes to the Rogue class, I decided to try out the changes -- and I enjoyed the changes enough to start playing Dofus again.

How many of you use bombs for direct damage? As in targeting opponents with them directly.

I do use bombs for direct damage, but not often.

Sometimes, it is a good inexpensive attack to use to finish off an enemy while also damaging (or killing) another nearby enemy in the bomb's AoE. Directly targeting enemies with bombs isn't the Rogue's strongest ability by any means, but it is often the best attack a for Rogue under 4 AP -- having only competition from Leek Pie (2 AP) and Extraction (3 AP), which are both fire-based and single-target spells.
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kakisuka|2012-06-01 16:43:35

Also, Kickback/Magnet/Magnet isn't a low AP cost. it's 6AP.. sure it deals a lot of damage but you still need to divide that damage over the course of about 8 turns. Which will be spent preparing the bombs for the kill.

In terms of low level, solo PvM I agree with this completely.

It is incredibly difficult to arrange your bombs in a manner that deals maximum damage and allows them to survive a 5 or so monster mob.

Any monsters with decent damaging attacks or with low AP attacks can easily destroy a bomb or damage one or more bombs plus the Rogue.

I feel that a player or monster that destroys a bomb should take damage equal to the damage a targeted (direct damage) explosion would cause, perhaps modified by any applicable combo bonus.
In this way your initial 3AP, plus any AP used to support said bomb, wouldn't be as much of a waste.

I feel I should stress that this damage would be direct damage inflicted on the one to destroy it only.

This wouldn't encroach on Powder as it would only be direct damage to one target and no immovable state would be applied.
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Electricotter|2012-06-02 14:57:34
I feel that a player or monster that destroys a bomb should take damage equal to the damage a targeted (direct damage) explosion would cause, perhaps modified by any applicable combo bonus.
In this way your initial 3AP, plus any AP used to support said bomb, wouldn't be as much of a waste.

I feel I should stress that this damage would be direct damage inflicted on the one to destroy it only.

This wouldn't encroach on Powder as it would only be direct damage to one target and no immovable state would be applied.

This is an interesting idea, but not without some awkwardness.

If an Iop (for example) uses a Peccary Blade to kill a bomb, there is some sense in that Iop taking light-to-moderate damage. If a Cra suffers damage by killing a bomb with Plaguing Arrow while 20 cells away, that is just odd.

Does an ally need Kaboom's effect to be immune from this 'blowback' damage from dying bombs? Can Kaboom even prevent the damage?

Isn't this a huge drawback for a Rogue (or ally) who wants to detonate a Powder bomb (by killing it with damage)? If so, an 'epic level' Rogue who uses Last Breath and activates a Powder bomb could suffer 800-1,000 damage for doing so -- and even a Rogue with 4000 hit points would be left with only 1000. It would still be painful for an ally with plenty of hit points, perhaps only advantageous to a Sacrier who is aiming for 50% health.

Powder could potentially prevent 'blowback' damage to allies only, but a bomb without Powder might suddenly be in an ally's way as the battle progresses (especially as these bombs are not in unmovable states). An enemy with a high lock stat could cause problems for a staff-or-hammer-using Rogue or ally by locking them with (or near) your bombs. There are ways for nearly every class to deal with such a situation, but the bombs do not cease to remain a liability in such cases; using any AP to escape the situation (perhaps again in subsequent turns) still drains the resources of Rogues and their allies.

Again, it is an interesting idea -- but it would somehow need to be implemented without these drawbacks, or the benefit intended for the Rogue is lost.
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Score : 1693

It could be balanced by just giving that "dying explosion" a fixed damage without any combo bonus applied perhaps. Maybe just the base explosion damage without any combo? It's only a little sting, but after all, saving the bombs for explosions/walls should be the Rogue's focus and not leaving them to get killed.

But as you said, when the bomb is killed from a range, this effect seems very odd.

In fact, I am not sure if this change would really help.
Endgame Rogues have less of a problem with bombs dying too often, they do not need additional damage when one is killed. The ones in need are the low level and mid level Rogues, where the vitality on gear is not so high. Their bombs are fragile, so I can understand why they find it incredibly difficult to make use of them in an appropriate way.
Adjusting the formula for bomb HP is difficult, as the devs have said several times they do not want bombs to be abused to block opponents in corners and similar exploits. As it is, at really high levels bombs typically have 500-700 HP which is quite a sweet spot to survive a hit or two but also a reasonable number to stay killable within a turn. If you go down the levels, this becomes less optimal. Bomb HP do not scale accordingly to match the damage of monsters and players at the level.
The best in my eyes would be a different formula which manages to keep epic level bombs unchanged but increases the HP at any lower level.
Then we also would not need a compensation for when the bomb is killed.

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Score : 720

Hell all,

First off I should say that I love my Rogue (Level 199, getting towards 200). It is one of my favourite characters and I find it extremely useful in PvM. I can't answer all of the questions, but I will state why that is so instead, as that may be useful information.

Can each element of build match up to the others?
- I am pure agility, because I think the agility spells are better than the chance and intelligence spells. I think hybrid builds are very viable, but personally don't see too much value in pure build in either chance or intelligence, though I would rate chance above intelligence. Pulsar is too awkward, though I had high hopes for it when I was an int/chance hybrid. The range on chance spells seemed difficult, more so than the agility spells, but I'm sure it could be adapted to over time. I personally don't find much, if any, use for permanent damage in PvM, which is a shame for blunderbuss (I speak mostly from a PvM perspective, though I have done Kolo, and if I was chance would have used blunderbuss for sure).

Is Combo Bonus balanced for explosions and wall damage?
- I think the bomb and bomb wall damage is very good, and this is balanced due to the difficulty involved in making regular, effective use of them. In my opinion the bombs and bomb walls are quite easily avoided by people who know anything about Rogues, apart from plans set by the most cunning of Rogues of course.

Are Bombs viable at low and high levels for both PvE and PvP?
- I can't really comment on this, as I am very much a buffer Rogue. Which I will explain in more detail below. Even with lots of map manipulation in my team, I've always preferred to buff rather than attack with bombs.

Can Rogues actually make fair use of their buffs and debuffs in practice?
- Buffs are a definite yes. I use them whenever they are available on as many allies as possible, and my Rogue itself. Effective in both PvM and group or 1v1 PvP, and not difficult to use. Yes, you can set up some much harder plans that are a bit more rewarding as far as buffs go, but the basic buff combos are perfectly effective. As I said above, with my rogue I buff myself and allies wherever possible, and use spells or a weapon between that.

Did they lose anything as they have changed over time that you just cannot live without?
- Not that I can think of. The changes to magnet and kickback made them a little more awkward, sometimes I don't want to attract everything linear to me, for example, but they also have their uses, it was a fair trade in my opinion.

Had you stopped playing your Rogue? Why? Have you returned to it?
- Have never stopped and hope I'm not given a reason to. Even when it was a wisdom leech it's buffs helped my end-game level team a lot.

Hopefully this has been useful information. In summary, I hope they don't change rogues at all smile.

Thanks,
- Elm

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Score : 6477
CunningFiend|2012-06-04 07:09:25

This is an interesting idea, but not without some awkwardness.

If an Iop (for example) uses a Peccary Blade to kill a bomb, there is some sense in that Iop taking light-to-moderate damage. If a Cra suffers damage by killing a bomb with Plaguing Arrow while 20 cells away, that is just odd.

Does an ally need Kaboom's effect to be immune from this 'blowback' damage from dying bombs? Can Kaboom even prevent the damage?

Isn't this a huge drawback for a Rogue (or ally) who wants to detonate a Powder bomb (by killing it with damage)? If so, an 'epic level' Rogue who uses Last Breath and activates a Powder bomb could suffer 800-1,000 damage for doing so -- and even a Rogue with 4000 hit points would be left with only 1000. It would still be painful for an ally with plenty of hit points, perhaps only advantageous to a Sacrier who is aiming for 50% health.

Powder could potentially prevent 'blowback' damage to allies only, but a bomb without Powder might suddenly be in an ally's way as the battle progresses (especially as these bombs are not in unmovable states). An enemy with a high lock stat could cause problems for a staff-or-hammer-using Rogue or ally by locking them with (or near) your bombs. There are ways for nearly every class to deal with such a situation, but the bombs do not cease to remain a liability in such cases; using any AP to escape the situation (perhaps again in subsequent turns) still drains the resources of Rogues and their allies.

Again, it is an interesting idea -- but it would somehow need to be implemented without these drawbacks, or the benefit intended for the Rogue is lost.
There are already several effects in the game that only apply to CC. I would like to see a 2 cell range on this effect to simulate the bombs blast radius, but it isn't really needed.
Remission already protects bombs from ranged attacks. Though in theory it would be nice if this protection was shared with any wall linked bombs as well.

This effect is more of a PvM boost (large groups are when bombs have a hard time surviving) and the combo bonus isn't needed, just a suggestion.

Powder could turn off this effect as it has a similar one, but with Powder, unlike the innate effect, you would also get the combo bonus.

Again the bombs death knell would be triggered in CC, this would add a small tactical defensive aspect in PvP, but mostly help out with PvM in lower/mid levels.
As evidenced in the responses to my question: How often do you deal direct, targeted explosion, damage with bombs?

Most people seem to find this damage minute and a last resort. As it should be, but this added damage component to bombs would hardly make a Rogue OP in end game.
More importantly it would assist a Rogue in low-mid levels, while keeping them within the same general amount of damaging ability.

Allies would ideally be immune to this effect, but all they really need to do is just not kill your bombs in CC, which isn't very hard.

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Score : 3543

I think that applying remission's effect to all linked bombs would be a bit OP. Remission allows one bomb to build up, but rogues need to have something to stop them from dealing that incredible damage.

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