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Pandawa Balancing

By Tropical-Ace - SUBSCRIBER - May 31, 2012, 02:19:35

The year was 236, Jullier. A faint smell of beer blows over Astrub, coming from the Northeast...A bridge is built, and adventurers coming from the four corners of the World of 12 run to explore this Island, which hints at mysteries to unfold...

Before the 2.4 update, Pandawas were one of the most untouched classes in the game. They were full of an abusable array of spells such as (but not limited to):

  • Two 4 AP spells with no cast limit and high base damage.
  • A 2 AP spell that unbewitched, stole AP, reduced damage, and gave Critical failures - all without having any sort of cast limitation.
  • A high resistant summon that put players in the weakened state!
Oh, and did I mention having the best soft caps in the game?

But, with such power, came great problems...
Pandawas were always restricted to one of two visible builds: Chance and Strength. Even then, Strength always trumped over Chance in terms of damage.
Pandawas were also missing spells to make the other builds more workable (Drunk chance spell and a sober agi spell)

The 2.4 and 2.5 updates brought Pandawas their first real balancing since Pandala was discovered. It has helped curb the advantage Pandas once had over their World of Twelve counterparts. But it has still left a lot of the problems unsolved.

Some questions to ponder
  • What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
  • How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
  • How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
  • Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
  • How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
  • In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
  • Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
  • How would you change Bamboo milk?
  • How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?
I'll be closely monitoring the thread, and taking feedback throughout the life of this thread.
If needed, I can add other Pandawa issues to the original post, depending on how much of a hot topic they are. So with that, discuss!
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Tropical-Ace|2012-05-31 02:19:35
The year was 236, Jullier. A faint smell of beer blows over Astrub, coming from the Northeast...A bridge is built, and adventurers coming from the four corners of the World of 12 run to explore this Island, which hints at mysteries to unfold...

Before the 2.4 update, Pandawas were one of the most untouched classes in the game. They were full of an abusable array of spells such as (but not limited to):
  • Two 4 AP spells with no cast limit and high base damage.
  • A 2 AP spell that unbewitched, stole AP, reduced damage, and gave Critical failures - all without having any sort of cast limitation.
  • A high resistant summon that put players in the weakened state!
Oh, and did I mention having the best soft caps in the game?

But, with such power, came great problems...
Pandawas were always restricted to one of two visible builds: Chance and Strength. Even then, Strength always trumped over Chance in terms of damage.
Pandawas were also missing spells to make the other builds more workable (Drunk chance spell and a sober agi spell)

The 2.4 and 2.5 updates brought Pandawas their first real balancing since Pandala was discovered. It has helped curb the advantage Pandas once had over their World of Twelve counterparts. But it has still left a lot of the problems unsolved.

Some questions to ponder
  • What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
  • How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
  • How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
  • Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
  • How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
  • In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
  • Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
  • How would you change Bamboo milk?
  • How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?
I'll be closely monitoring the thread, and taking feedback throughout the life of this thread.
If needed, I can add other Pandawa issues to the original post, depending on how much of a hot topic they are. So with that, discuss!

Let's see here...

I find every build of the Panda class to be a very effective way to play them. I've seen every build on epic geared end-game pandas and they were all very impressive. Not only in damage output, but in versatility. Each build has 2 main attacks, one of which is AoE and ranged, the other single target and ranged. You really can't lose. Oddly enough, strength Pandas seem to be the least impressive of the 4, but maybe I'm just biased as my Panda is also strength. Why most are strength? I'd honestly have to say that the lack of good mid level gear brings this out. Moowolf set. Does anything else need to be said here? From then I think most people are too lazy, or too annoyed, with having to change builds entirely and sometimes having to re-roll scrolling to switch to something better end-game.

Difference between drunk and sober spells are fine by me. Since all four builds sustain at least 1 attack in every element in both drunk and sober states, I find it very balanced and don't really see the need to change anything.

The new stain is without a doubt the biggest disappointment that Dofus has thrown in my lap, and I've had MANY a disappointments in this game. Don't get me wrong, it's still an extremely useful spell in a PvP setting, but in PvM I would never even think of leveling it. Especially with the crappy unbewitchment nerf. Only thing I can think of to change at level 6 without bringing back its former glory full swing would be to allow it 2 casts per target @ level 6, but only allowing you to stack damage reduction once per target.

I would like to see the two spells merged. In its place? Hmm... That's a good question. Perhaps a new drunk spell which allows you to share the alcohol with an ally, granting him the same effects you're currently under for 1 turn (1 turn cool down 2ap). Basically giving 1 ally per turn either Boozer or Wrath of Zatoishwan buffs, but you would have to limit it to 1 range as to not be abused.

The only change I would make to pandawasta would be to get rid of the damage debuff. Being weakened is bad enough, but having negative damage to spells on top of it is nasty.

What role does a panda play? Well it has the ability to play pretty much every roll... Tanks damage for allies, does massive damage, can buff allies and retreats like a pro by throwing enemies away.

Boozer vs Wrath isn't really a realistic pick and choose. You really should use both at level 6 if at all possible. For pure PvM characters, boozer level 1 is really all that's required, but level 6 Wrath of Zato is ridiculously nice when blitzing bosses. PvP you're more than likely going to use Boozer over Wrath just for the % resists. I would change drunk state to where you can use your close combat weapon, but by doing so you relinquish 30% of your base weapon damage. Take for example a strength panda with a Peccary Blade. If you had sword skill on, going into drunk state would negate this effect. If you didn't have sword skill on, your base damage would go from 46-75 to 33-53. I use Peccary as an example because it's only 1 damage. Less calculations for me to do @ 2am! This change is really only brought to life because as a fully buffed Panda in PvM some teams will have 14-20ap to use, but if you're a Panda and drunk, you only have like 6-8ap to use in damage spells as a pure stat build. Kind of screws you over royally unless you have 2 different monsters to cast double vulnerabilities on, which is a massive waste of AP most times.

Change Bamboo Milk by giving it a -2 unbewitchment instead of a full out all effects removed thing. Of course it would fully wipe out Boozer/Wrath buffs, but everything else would be -2.

The new spell limitations suck horribly, but I'm trying to live with them through hybridization. Example 2 pandataks + 2 schnapps when I'm not in CC range of anything. A way to counteract these spells from being spammed without keeping them so powerful would be to give them a scaling degree of damage through multiple casts. 20% per cast after 2 would be alright in my book. Example - Strength panda with 12ap. Pandatak (36-40) + Pandatak (36-40) + Pandatak (29-32). Those are base damages by the way. A 16ap Panda's fourth pandatak would be (22-26). This way you can't just plow through things with ease, but you also have a way to use all your AP without having to go hybrid. If 20% is too high, 15% would also work. Also this would work with every spell in the game that has been given unjust cast limitations.

So yeah... I think that Pandas are pretty much the most balanced class out there. With a slight change here and there they would be perfect.
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[*]What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
I don't think they are completely balanced out at all. I've had the pleasure of running alongside a pair of pandas (strength and chance) and the strength panda out does the chance one in damage every single time. Until recently, the choice to go strength also had a lot to do with choices in gear. Strength gear at end game was (and kind of still is) better than the chance gear. Before the new spells, intel pandas were laughable at best and agi pandas were a one-trick pony. The only bonus chance pandas had over intel or agi, was the prospecting that comes with the build.

[*]How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
I like the fact that drunk spells tend to be a bit weaker compared to the sober spells. It makes up for the huge resists that are gained while drunk. I'd like to see Tipple changed to be on par with Hangover, even if the damage needs to be knocked down a bit. The minimum range makes it a pain in the butt to work with and the ap cost isn't much better. I think the new intel spell could use a bit of work. I'm just not a fan of it. Can't really say much about the agi spells because I haven't played around with them.

[*]How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
Stain=ewww
I'm fairly certain it wasn't releveled on the pandas just because of how crappy it is in pvm. That goes hand in hand with the new unbewitch system though...[*]Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
I think they should be merged. It makes sense and would free up a spot for a new support spell. Maybe another vuln, one that reduces mp/ap reduction abilities. [*]How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
Interesting question....
It is great for locking stuff, and I think that if the weakened state was removed, it would be balanced out. On top of reducing damage, it also takes away dodge, which can come in handy in both pvp and pvm. Combined with some extra ap, it can be a locking machine. If it got rid of the reducing damage and removing close combat, I think it would still be useful. It would need a small boost in agi, but nothing too far-fetched. [*]In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
Depending on the situation, both. In places like Korriander, at least one panda is our "panda express" for the monsters. (throwing them away, tossing wasta, ect)
Other times, they are just there for nice damage, and a little support if needed. [*]Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
I like them both, but I prefer boozer most of the time. I think boozer needs to have the resists lowered though. My preference with boozer is probably linked to where it's located on the spell bar

[*]How would you change Bamboo milk?
I wouldn't. I like it how it is.
How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?
I think they are fine, it's the spells that need the work, not the limitations. I'm dealing with them pretty well, just took some adjusting.

Even before the changes, I felt that pandas were closest to being the most balanced class. With the merged vulnerability spell, it opened a few new doors. I do, however, feel that the new vuln could be reduced a bit because of the stacking. This would be a long term suggestion, but one that should be considered.

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Score : 3731

Pandawasta does not reduce dodge, he gives negative lock debuffs.

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Score : 212
justabeast|2012-05-31 17:27:32
Pandawasta does not reduce dodge, he gives negative lock debuffs.
I was about to post that!

Well my opinions is that pandas took a big blow with the unbewitch, however the other spells are pretty balanced, honestly a panda is to be played at least 2 elements, this gives one versatility, e.g. I go chance/agi
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Score : 204
--epic--|2012-05-31 21:58:59
justabeast|2012-05-31 17:27:32
Pandawasta does not reduce dodge, he gives negative lock debuffs.
I was about to post that!

Well my opinions is that pandas took a big blow with the unbewitch, however the other spells are pretty balanced, honestly a panda is to be played at least 2 elements, this gives one versatility, e.g. I go chance/agi
My bad (must have confused it with what the masq was doing)
I also was sleepy lol
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Score : 1947

Regarding the wrath/bamboo milk discussion: I personally do not know a single panda that uses wrath and I myself do not use it (I am not saying that some people don't). Personally I would like to see zatoishwans wrath become a spell that lets the panda become sober again with perhaps a slightly lower crit/damage/% damage buff than the current version. Perhaps it could also apply the weakened state to the panda. I would prefer this because it could be a way for pandas to become sober again without sacrificing all the buffs they have accumulated(only unbewitching the effects of boozer since bamboo milk unbewitches everything) and in turn would cause a weakened state for a turn or 2. Otherwise I would also leave bamboo milk the same because it would allow the panda to become sober without weakened state and unbewitch. As for most pandas prefering to be strength: With the new updates every other type of panda has become much stronger (I personally play an agi/int/cha panda everything but strength) and I find that each build of the pandas are fairly balanced right now. As for Stain: I think maybe at most it could use a 2ap steal added and maybe some failures (since the addition of failures have been taken away from the classes) Just my 2 cents

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Score : 1693
Linyth|2012-06-01 07:09:48
As for Stain: I think maybe at most it could use a 2ap steal added and maybe some failures (since the addition of failures have been taken away from the classes) Just my 2 cents
Small note about the +failures. Lichen has said they would like to change/remove critical failures entirely. So this may have been why the effect was removed from Wasta and Stain. And it's most likely not going to return.
We'll get back to the issue of critical failures soon in another topic.
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Score : 456
Tropical-Ace|2012-05-31 02:19:35
  • What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
  • How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
  • How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
  • Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
  • How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
  • In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
  • Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
  • How would you change Bamboo milk?
  • How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?

  • The 4 buils are awesome tho they require different play style. I think intelligence build is neglected because it's harder to get a hold of it but after fighting with a few intel pandas, I can say it's just as strong as the others ^^
  • I like the new Stain, but it should gain 1 more range. Range 1 only makes it very hard to use in PvM (I never do)
  • Karcham/chamrak being 2 spells is fine to me, some additional effect to Chamrak would be nice tho.
  • I agree with nudey on this one, the damage debuff on tope of -lock, weakened state is..a bit over the top ^^
  • It is both biggrin

WoZ buff is still ridiculous for the AP cost as it's the only damage buffing spell that actually grants you a "weakened state" and forbid to use half of the class damaging spells...quick comparison with Psychopath mask: only 1 turn less, buffing allies, not forbidding the use of weapons and 2AP cost. Mainly because of the AP cost, I don't use it. The buff you gain for the AP you spend AND the restriction that come with it are not worth it. Moreover, %res of boozer are awesome, and not only in PvP.

We talk a lot about changing bamboo milk but we have 2 ways of getting drunk... so how about making bamboo milk act differently according to how we got drunk? biggrin

Next idea is not mine but is the most innovative and awesome I found:
  • Boozer stays at it is now
  • WoZ become 1AP to cast, maybe one less turn duration. Since it forbids weapon use AND does not buff anyone else but the caster, would still be balanced imho
  • Bamboo milk acts differently depending on how you got drunk. If you get out of "boozer" mode, it unbewitches you completely. If you get out of "Woz" it only removes pandiniarus if you have it on but let the other buff/debuffs untouched.
With this solution WoZ gets usable in PvM. In PvP you now have to chose: booze for resistance and a chance to removes enemies debuffs on you? or WoZ to keep the allied buffs but no resistance and keeping whatever nasty debuff the enemy put on you (arggggg - range!! nohoo!)

The new cast limitation make no sense to me (Especially since new gears advocate for single element builds) It doesn't give you choices, it just limits what you can do. "Sometimes" (sarcasm inside) the game requires you to hit for a turn: with limitation.. you're not allowed to and since you got 1 spell/element/state except for int pandas (sober or drunk) ... every panda end up casting leek pie and flask, no matter what element they are biggrin
Going drunk to cast 1 more hitting attack? The thing is going drunk is not just to do damage, it's also a tactical move that's not always appropriate to cast.
We're not cras, we're not enus.. in short we're not a class that still have interesting things to do in a turn, at any moment of the fight, if we got our damaging spells limited with such heavy restrictions. Don't get me wrong, it's not killing the class, but I'm just tired of the silly flask/leek pie combo..-,-"

I'm in favor or Pandatak/melancholy/schnaps to 3 casts/turn. But also Tipples 3AP and not 4. I still regret the lack of difference between Hangover and Blazing fist, I think Blazing would deserve a secondary effect to make intelligence build more attractive... maybe some heals when cast on allies? biggrin

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Score : 3054
Ilovebidou|2012-06-01 10:54:35
Tropical-Ace|2012-05-31 02:19:35
  • What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
  • How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
  • How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
  • Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
  • How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
  • In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
  • Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
  • How would you change Bamboo milk?
  • How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?

  • The 4 buils are awesome tho they require different play style. I think intelligence build is neglected because it's harder to get a hold of it but after fighting with a few intel pandas, I can say it's just as strong as the others ^^
  • I like the new Stain, but it should gain 1 more range. Range 1 only makes it very hard to use in PvM (I never do)
  • Karcham/chamrak being 2 spells is fine to me, some additional effect to Chamrak would be nice tho.
  • I agree with nudey on this one, the damage debuff on tope of -lock, weakened state is..a bit over the top ^^
  • It is both biggrin

WoZ buff is still ridiculous for the AP cost as it's the only damage buffing spell that actually grants you a "weakened state" and forbid to use half of the class damaging spells...quick comparison with Psychopath mask: only 1 turn less, buffing allies, not forbidding the use of weapons and 2AP cost. Mainly because of the AP cost, I don't use it. The buff you gain for the AP you spend AND the restriction that come with it are not worth it. Moreover, %res of boozer are awesome, and not only in PvP.

We talk a lot about changing bamboo milk but we have 2 ways of getting drunk... so how about making bamboo milk act differently according to how we got drunk? biggrin

Next idea is not mine but is the most innovative and awesome I found:
  • Boozer stays at it is now
  • WoZ become 1AP to cast, maybe one less turn duration. Since it forbids weapon use AND does not buff anyone else but the caster, would still be balanced imho
  • Bamboo milk acts differently depending on how you got drunk. If you get out of "boozer" mode, it unbewitches you completely. If you get out of "Woz" it only removes pandiniarus if you have it on but let the other buff/debuffs untouched.
With this solution WoZ gets usable in PvM. In PvP you now have to chose: booze for resistance and a chance to removes enemies debuffs on you? or WoZ to keep the allied buffs but no resistance and keeping whatever nasty debuff the enemy put on you (arggggg - range!! nohoo!)

The new cast limitation make no sense to me (Especially since new gears advocate for single element builds) It doesn't give you choices, it just limits what you can do. "Sometimes" (sarcasm inside) the game requires you to hit for a turn: with limitation.. you're not allowed to and since you got 1 spell/element/state except for int pandas (sober or drunk) ... every panda end up casting leek pie and flask, no matter what element they are biggrin
Going drunk to cast 1 more hitting attack? The thing is going drunk is not just to do damage, it's also a tactical move that's not always appropriate to cast.
We're not cras, we're not enus.. in short we're not a class that still have interesting things to do in a turn, at any moment of the fight, if we got our damaging spells limited with such heavy restrictions. Don't get me wrong, it's not killing the class, but I'm just tired of the silly flask/leek pie combo..-,-"

I'm in favor or Pandatak/melancholy/schnaps to 3 casts/turn. But also Tipples 3AP and not 4. I still regret the lack of difference between Hangover and Blazing fist, I think Blazing would deserve a secondary effect to make intelligence build more attractive... maybe some heals when cast on allies? biggrin

Wrath of zato is an amazing spell and I use it all the time. In comparrison to the psyco mask, the mask gives 40%-20% less damage depending on crit, has no plus damage or plus crits. Wrath for an agressive drunk panda master is a must and you are a insane panda player if you don't use it. Personaly I use it more than boozer and it is the bread and butter spell of the mixed element pandas. In regards to not using a weapon and weakened state, the panda in drunk wrath mode is basically playing a ranged game. So why do they need to be able to strike with weapons? Just like a mask in cowardly mode is weakened as this stance is there ranged game too. Boozer mode is for tanking and stain botting. 1ap wrath is rediculous for what it provides the panda (op sugestion and isn't in the perspective of balance, I play a panda too btw endgame).

I disagree on panda attack, meloncholy and schnaps being 3 casts a target (op much). Are you listening to what you are saying here? 3 x aoe attacks on main elements (12ap turn). Madness!

Plus these restriction encourage mixed element pandas, If you want to chase the pure element build thats your choice but don't cry at the restrictions that basically keep the pandas damage balanced.

I also disagree on the bamboo milk suggestion of your's. It's fine as it is and the CD's on WoZ and boozer are fine. Again, its these things that make the panda balanced.

I agree with +1-2 range on stain. But not increasing its cast limit per target, but increase its casts per turn.

The waster, yeah its debuffs are too much. Everything on it is too much compaired to any other class summon. Remove the weakened state or give other characters the ability to use this debuff too.

@ the chance and intel panda spells and builds. My panda is a chance/intel/agl tri element split. My chance and intel spells are my most used and basically make the str spelsl look laughable in the tactical shapes of the aoe's in comparrison to the intel and chance spells. Tipple is epic damage, amazing in WoZ mode and shuts down xelors in pvp. Blazing fist epic ranged damage spell (the last thing a panda needs is more debuffs / buffs for spell casting. Again op to suggest such a thing). I find the +MP spell (I havent a clue on its spelling off the top of my head) is epic and is the new acceleration. Terror, epically OP in pvp endgame. The intel build is one of the strongest panda builds at the moment (if it wasn't I would be cooky cutter str or str/agl Panda).

I face roll most pure element pandas, though versitility over the 70-100 extra damage they have per hit. As a sugestion to the pure element pandas I say this. Do the math on your spells on split element builds, its a drop of about 70-100 damage tops. This is all dependant on gear of corse, but if we go off max stat gear a mixed element panda will do more damage over all thanks to being able to deal with spell restrictions on casts.

Just because you suggest removing weakened state from waster dosn't mean the other spells should be overpowered or changed to imbalance the equilibrium between the mixed element builds. The way the class was intended to be played hence the spell restrictions to casts per target.

Personaly I feel pandas are one of the most balanced classes and are borderline OP (I know, I abuse mine in pvp and pvm, she isn't just a vun bot). Ankama got it right with the panda on most there spells bar the waster and stain.
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Score : 2482

remove weakened state from pandawasta +1

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Score : 562
whywouldigivemynametoamachine|2012-06-26 05:28:26
remove weakened state from pandawasta +1
No I need it for when 90% of the dofus population try's to CC spam me.
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Score : 3959
whywouldigivemynametoamachine|2012-06-26 05:28:26
remove weakened state from pandawasta +1
If you buff its HP and resists. Why nurf a nurfed class? It seems every single update is more Kolo oriented....
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Score : 2482

panda's are nerfed? i think the class is excellent the way it is currently, and wasta is op (only the weakend state) granted i don't play one, but i do play with one. (ps some classes actually rely on a weapon for damage because spells damage is weak and under par, aka the enu/eni, ect.)

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Score : 3959
whywouldigivemynametoamachine|2012-06-28 18:44:34
panda's are nerfed? i think the class is excellent the way it is currently, and wasta is op (only the weakend state) granted i don't play one, but i do play with one. (ps some classes actually rely on a weapon for damage because spells damage is weak and under par, aka the enu/eni, ect.)
Karacham, Pandatank (level 6) , the vulns, stain, and others too that I cant remember. Pandas are hardly OP in pvp. Nurfing them is just stupid, not even ridicules
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Score : 2482

The class that scares me the most in pvp is a well played and built panda, you mention that certain spells were nerfed, and at the same time you leave out all of the new REALLY useful and good spells they gained, the only nerf i could see is the karacham nerf. Other then that the style in which they are meant to be played changed alittle, no more 102828 pandas, all just spamming vulns the entire fight.

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Score : 2116

So, now that we're a few weeks into the 2.7 update I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about the change to Karcham.

Does it pose a threat to the over all game play of Pandas?
Is it something that you quickly/slowly adapted to?
Do you think there was there an over reaction on how severe the changes were?

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Score : 3959
Tropical-Ace|2012-07-10 22:01:49
So, now that we're a few weeks into the 2.7 update I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about the change to Karcham.

Does it pose a threat to the over all game play of Pandas?
Is it something that you quickly/slowly adapted to?
Do you think there was there an over reaction on how severe the changes were?
Well It is annoying at SOME points but overall I didn't notice much of a change. There was an over reaction to the PANDA changes only. And I dont know how much I can stress Only the panda changes.
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Score : 6477

This is just a small thing, but I had a question I would like to throw out there.

How do Pandas feel about their Drunk state expiring and needing to be recast every 4-5 turns?

Bamboo Milk being gained at lvl 9 makes it so Zatoishwan's Wrath at least (being gained AFTER Bamboo Milk) could have a longer to infinite drunk state.
Taking the Zobal for example, the Mask buffs last a fixed number of turns whereas the Mask state is infinite.

There already is teh distinction of defense(Boozer) vs offense(ZW), but perhaps having a different amount of time being drunk would be a good distinction between the two as well?

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What do you think about the balance of the 4 builds? Why does it appear that the majority of Pandas choose to be strength?
It's good to provide variety. Personally I would prefer only 3 builds (eliminate intelligence or agility) and change element to remaining spells. People choose the strengh build by weapons and Moowolf set.

How do you feel about the difference between the Drunk and Sober spells? How would you change them?
I like that difference.

How do you feel about the new Stain? Is it still a staple panda spell, or has it been pushed to the side?
The new Stain is still important, especially for Frigost 2, but needs more range, I propose:
A. Range 2, non linear and non boosted.
B. Range 3, linear and non boosted.

Do you feel that Karcham and Chamrak should be merged? If so what do you think will be born out of the merger.
Yes, should be merged and a put a new spell that will serves all builds.

How do you feel about the Pandawasta? Are its amount of abilities too vast?
Pandawasta need to remove dodge or steal lock to enemy, and Meditation should increase vitality according to the pandawa level.

In your opinion, what role does the Pandawa play? Is it support, damage dealer, or maybe both.
The pandawa have several roles at once, but now everyone use Getas Bernacles to spamm with Vulnerability.

Boozer Vs Wrath of Zatoishwan. Which one do your prefer? How would you change them?
I like both, but the drunken state from Boozer or Zatoishwan's Wrath should allow use weapons (ony one). Zobal has a similar gameplay, and he doesn’t lose boost when change state and he can use weapons (less in one). The next limitation on the use of weapons prevent weapon spam.

How would you change Bamboo milk?
The pandawa is the only class that unbewitches himself frequently. We unbewitchesd himself by strategic necessity, and we don’t use 100% boost. We need a change, I propose:
A. That Bamboo Milk only clean malus and effects of Boozer and Wrath:
It's great but very abusive.

B. That Bamboo Milk reduces effects according to their type (positives and negatives):
That Bamboo Milk clean the effects of Boozer and Wrath, also that decrease 2 turns the positive effects (boost) and 4 the negative effects (malus).

C. That Bamboo Milk will be used in both states:
Bamboo Milk in sober: Unbewitches totally (boost and malus).
Bamboo Milk in drunken: Only removing the effects of Boozer and Wrath.

D. That Boozer will be used in both states:
Boozer in sober: No changes.
Boozer in drunken: Only removing the effects of Boozer (only Boozer).

How are you dealing with the new limitations on Damage spells (Melancholy, Pandatak etc..) How would you change these?
These limitations greatly affect the pandawa because each build have only 1 sober spell. That is why I proposed only 3 builds, so that each build has at least 2 spells sobers (or 2 drunkens and 2 casts per targed).

Does it pose a threat to the over all game play of Pandas?
I don’t think that is a threat.

Is it something that you quickly/slowly adapted to?
I adapted quickly.

Do you think there was there an over reaction on how severe the changes were?
Maybe yes, I would preferred 2 Karcham per target.
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