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Improving the New Dungeon System--Topic of the Month (August)

By Electricotter - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - August 01, 2012, 22:12:52

In July's voting thread New Dungeon System topic by Ecademort aka Scarbon got the most votes (25):

ecademort|2012-07-04 17:30:10
Improving the "improved" dungeon system. There have been many complaints regarding this new system, and a topic to organize the specific pros and cons would be helpful to give our feedback to the devs.
Aside from the points noted in other threads (for example, lower XP for small groups and solo players in low level dungeons; low desirability of small loot souls [loot 4]; inhibition of the farming of certain resources) we would also appreciate your feedback on the following points:
  • Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons? If so, how?
  • Are there any changes for full teams, i.e. 8 character teams?
  • How has this new system impacted group composition?
  • In what ways, if any, does the new class design model (removal of set roles for a more broad coverage/class) exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
  • What are the pros and cons of the new system in general?
  • Do these pros and cons apply equally to low through end game dungeons?
We greatly anticipate and appreciate your feedback.

[size=12]P.S. You can suggest and vote for new topics in August’s Topic of the Month Voting thread.[/size]
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Score : 490
  • Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons? If so, how?
I think it has helped making the accessibility better as I see lots of people running teams of 4-5 in frig 2 dungeons.
  • Are there any changes for full teams, i.e. 8 character teams?
I think many dungeons has gotten slower(since of 8 monster in each each) and in some rooms it can even be faster if you divide your team.
  • How has this new system impacted group composition?
The class composition has become more limited in small groups and it's not as possible to form any team in some dungeons
  • In what ways, if any, does the new class design model (removal of set roles for a more broad coverage/class) exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
It gives more synergy to specific roles rather than specific classes and I would like to see more of this.
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Score : 1094

Disclaimer: I have gotten as far as the Petrified Forest and have only run the Tengu dungeon once, so you may take my input regarding higher level dungeons with a grain of salt.

Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons?
Yes, it has. More precisely, it has improved the accessibility for single accounters and multi accounters with 2-4 characters. Most dungeons now take less time, and it is also easier to find people. If you can't find that last hitter, it's no big deal, the difficulty will adapt.

Are there changes for full teams?
Yes. I rarely find myself running a dungeon with a full team anymore simply because it takes too long to put one together, and the first couple of rooms are much more time consuming. I agree with kat on this point.

How has this new system impacted group composition?
It hasn't. All dungeons that represent a reasonable amount of reward for that level still require an eni or two and the rest of the slots filled with whatever is available.

What ways, if any, does the new class design model exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
I'm not sure I understand the question :/. Hitters will be hitters, and healers will be healers. Until you go on to level 190+ dungeons (which I don't really have any experience with), specific roles are not really needed.

What are the pros and cons of the new system in general? (I am just going to put my general thoughts/comments here)
In my opinion, this was a step in the right direction. It encourages single accounters to make connections with other players to organize themselves and run dungeons instead of a repetitive grind through the gobball dungeon by yourself. The dungeons were simply remade to provide a challenge to players of their level. But, with the early levels of the game nullified by increased ease of xp gain, much of the content once enjoyed by players is now not worth the time. From the gobball war chiefs in Incarnam to the Snowfoux mobs in frigost, Dofus has always been about teaming up to defeat monsters that you would normally not be able to fight yourself.

That being said, it is rather frustrating to spend several hours in the snowfoux dungeon because of the number of monsters in the cramped first few rooms. When the new system was announced, I was thinking that there would be a ratio of monsters to players less than 1 to 1, and stats would be weakened as well.

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Score : 521
Are there changes for full teams?
Yes. I hate doing dungeons with full 8 man teams, 4-5 is just fine and now its finally possible. Its also harder now for full team (especially Kolosso key rooms), which is ok, even if they dont like it.

How has this new system impacted group composition?
What ways, if any, does the new class design model exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
Much more crazier groups are now available as regular choice. I do F2 dungeons as masq/rogue/panda/sadida/low lvl froggernaut, so no healer, and its just fine. There is not a single class that is "needed" now, which i think is great.

What are the pros and cons of the new system in general?
Another pro is stacking of souls, i like this a lot. Only con i can thing about is the fact, that it destroyed some easy dungeons as solo leveling spots (for example solo royal goball), its not good anymore with only 4 monsters. But they can just find another place...
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Score : 6477

Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?

Perhaps dungeons where the level isn't accurate or the challenge is simply too great for a 4 player team?

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Score : 2987
Electricotter|2012-08-01 22:12:52
In July's voting thread New Dungeon System topic by Ecademort aka Scarbon got the most votes (25):
ecademort|2012-07-04 17:30:10
Improving the "improved" dungeon system. There have been many complaints regarding this new system, and a topic to organize the specific pros and cons would be helpful to give our feedback to the devs.
Aside from the points noted in other threads (for example, lower XP for small groups and solo players in low level dungeons; low desirability of small loot souls [loot 4]; inhibition of the farming of certain resources) we would also appreciate your feedback on the following points:
  • Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons? If so, how?
  • Are there any changes for full teams, i.e. 8 character teams?
  • How has this new system impacted group composition?
  • In what ways, if any, does the new class design model (removal of set roles for a more broad coverage/class) exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
  • What are the pros and cons of the new system in general?
  • Do these pros and cons apply equally to low through end game dungeons?
We greatly anticipate and appreciate your feedback.

P.S. You can suggest and vote for new topics in August’s Topic of the Month Voting thread.
It has positively changed accessibility of dungeons. allows smaller teams to be able to do things.

full teams got heavily hit... i for one run a full team, and it's just so annoying to fight in frigost 2 dungeons, where fights take 30+ minutes. i literally can do the boss room faster than the rooms in kolosso... 7 venomous brockhards? ugh...

group composition on full teams haven't been effected necessarily, but smaller teams are much more versatile. enis are no longer necessity, and any team composition can handle things in a group of 4.

i totally love the higher versatility of the rolls of classes, and find it makes the game more fun. however i do feel there is a fine line that is being crossed when giving support characters more damage capability than damage classes, but that hasn't shown to be a major problem so far...

pros:
people don't NEED a full team, much easier to find a group, able to obtain sets etc.
people are forced to train in level appropriate places (goodbye royal gobb spam. i always found that absurd....)

cons:
eggs are EVEN harder to obtain, DP and tor....
large groups take a lot longer to do things...
arena groups have to be the same size as the dungeon group.
soul prices are ridiclous...
and it seems more people just make 4 char teams instead of finding a group of people, because it's harder with larger group.... makes it oddly harder to find people in some cases.

the effect endgame dungeons took the biggest difference. large groups hurt, small groups helped.
for low level duns, only low levels can really do them now, which i feel is how it hsould be, but alot of people complain

Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?

Perhaps dungeons where the level isn't accurate or the challenge is simply too great for a 4 player team?

ougaa? KOLOSSO (why give it an extra room...? Dsmile the pre rooms on all frig duns, peki, and any dungeon where you are split into 2 teams.........
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Score : 4089
Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?
Royal Blops has a bit of a miss-classification when it comes to the recommended level.The Dungeon is recommended for level 160+ characters (Somewhere around there). This is perfectly fine in a group of 4. However, once you get into the 6-8 groups, the mob level takes a serious fall due to the sheer number of trash mobs. Just thought I'd give this a special mention. 
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Score : 3959
Giga-Biga-Bowser|2012-08-13 01:13:40
Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?
Royal Blops has a bit of a miss-classification when it comes to the recommended level.The Dungeon is recommended for level 160+ characters (Somewhere around there). This is perfectly fine in a group of 4. However, once you get into the 6-8 groups, the mob level takes a serious fall due to the sheer number of trash mobs. Just thought I'd give this a special mention.
Im not even sure if you can say the dungeon is for 160 characters because the blop dungeon is for 50 characters and the royal rainbow is not much harder. I think 100 characters or 120 characters would be a more valid statement because back in the day me and my friend would create groups for the rainbow of level 100s and 120s. Not 160s.
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Score : 4089
greekg|2012-08-13 01:52:49
Giga-Biga-Bowser|2012-08-13 01:13:40
Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?
Royal Blops has a bit of a miss-classification when it comes to the recommended level.The Dungeon is recommended for level 160+ characters (Somewhere around there). This is perfectly fine in a group of 4. However, once you get into the 6-8 groups, the mob level takes a serious fall due to the sheer number of trash mobs. Just thought I'd give this a special mention.
Im not even sure if you can say the dungeon is for 160 characters because the blop dungeon is for 50 characters and the royal rainbow is not much harder. I think 100 characters or 120 characters would be a more valid statement because back in the day me and my friend would create groups for the rainbow of level 100s and 120s. Not 160s.
Yea, I'm saying that Dofus itself classifies it as a 120~ (I did not have access to Dofus to check so I put whichever number came to mind in. 120 is the correct number) dungeon even though the bosses themselves are the only monsters around these levels. The dungeon (hardly even a dungeon itself) shouldn't be 120 if the average monster level is ((150 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 40 + 40 + 40) / 8) = 84~.

Hope you get what I'm saying.
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Score : 314
Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons? If so, how?
The obvious, people can go to frigost two much easier with just two accounts to form a team of four. I run six accounts and I can finally do some dungeons myself.

Are there any changes for full teams, i.e. 8 character teams?
I didn't run much of these. As long as you run all accounts yourself I guess it's ok. However dofus have ALWAYS been extremely sensitive to players from different places in the world in the same fight (I guess that's why) this is the most critical issue in my opinion and have always been. As soon as you are eight people there seem to be A LOT more connection issues. I would even go as for to say you might aswell skip 8 people fights all over, nobody enjoys these fights as soon as there are more than 2 players behind the characters...

How has this new system impacted group composition?
Frigost two dungeons still has their requirements. I find it hard to believe a gang of level 170 characters wihout a panda or sac has any chance at all of bringing Korriander down. If someone have seen this I would be very happy to see it..

In what ways, if any, does the new class design model (removal of set roles for a more broad coverage/class) exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
Which new class design model :O? Eniripsas still are the best healers, Xelors still sucks PvM in frigost. Panda, Sac, Cra or Enu is almost a requirement for all frigost dungeons

What are the pros and cons of the new system in general?
Pros:
Accessability
Level balance of ALL rooms in the dungeon.
For me it's a pro that people cannot do lower level dungeons with less characters for experience i.e Royal mastogob with 3-4 people, blop dungeon with a few and solo gobball dungeon etc.
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Score : 9394
Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?

Perhaps dungeons where the level isn't accurate or the challenge is simply too great for a 4 player team?


Fungus dungeon still has these ridiculous split rooms that need to be removed.
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Score : 2987

apparenly ankama doesn't plan to remove split rooms, but in fact, add more, as they recently made mastogob a split dungeon. :/ sad to hear that. and really alot of dungeons need to have more ballanced out monster levels. maybe make the things in blop dungeon ... well.... all dungeons... so the mobs of the boss room are simiar level to eachother........

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Score : 11138
pirotekno|2012-08-15 05:16:43
apparenly ankama doesn't plan to remove split rooms, but in fact, add more, as they recently made mastogob a split dungeon. :/ sad to hear that. and really alot of dungeons need to have more ballanced out monster levels. maybe make the things in blop dungeon ... well.... all dungeons... so the mobs of the boss room are simiar level to eachother........

Weren't the split rooms fixed recently?
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Score : 3959
Giga-Biga-Bowser|2012-08-13 03:04:50
greekg|2012-08-13 01:52:49
Giga-Biga-Bowser|2012-08-13 01:13:40
Electricotter|2012-08-13 00:15:22
Are there any dungeons which seem to require more attention?
Royal Blops has a bit of a miss-classification when it comes to the recommended level.The Dungeon is recommended for level 160+ characters (Somewhere around there). This is perfectly fine in a group of 4. However, once you get into the 6-8 groups, the mob level takes a serious fall due to the sheer number of trash mobs. Just thought I'd give this a special mention.
Im not even sure if you can say the dungeon is for 160 characters because the blop dungeon is for 50 characters and the royal rainbow is not much harder. I think 100 characters or 120 characters would be a more valid statement because back in the day me and my friend would create groups for the rainbow of level 100s and 120s. Not 160s.
Yea, I'm saying that Dofus itself classifies it as a 120~ (I did not have access to Dofus to check so I put whichever number came to mind in. 120 is the correct number) dungeon even though the bosses themselves are the only monsters around these levels. The dungeon (hardly even a dungeon itself) shouldn't be 120 if the average monster level is ((150 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 40 + 40 + 40) / 8) = 84~.

Hope you get what I'm saying.
Makes sense now. The mobs should be alot higher then.
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Score : 129

I only just realised this thread existed (oops!).

- Has the new system changed accessibility of dungeons? If so, how?
The new system has improved the accessibility of dungeons by small groups. It tends to be only the people in huge guilds, or the 8-accounters, who can muster a group large enough to get a full dungeon of 8, while the people with a group of 4 can now attempt even Frigost dungeons without starting a suicide mission. Of course, this helps the Team Search out a lot - speaking from experience, it's very hard to get a group of 8 purely from Team Search.

- Are there any changes for full teams, i.e. 8 character teams?
A lot, actually. From what I've seen of the max-size groups in the dungeons, and this is an issue raised by other people before me, all rooms now contain 8 monsters. While this is not an issue in the final rooms, or the penultimate rooms (like the dreaded steam crackler room of Obsidemon!), it certainly slows people down actually arriving at the final room. Snowfoux, purely as an example, has gained 3 monsters in the first room alone.

- How has this new system impacted group composition?
I would imagine the group size has been affected dramatically, with people going for teams of 4 instead of 8. This has certain repercussions on the composition, of course, given that it is practically impossible for most people to do most epic-level dungeons without an Eniripsa and a Sacrier (or Rogue, to be honest). This means there are less people with a different class and different specialisation who are useful in a different way, per team. (What I mean is that if you do Buck Anear, you'll probably have an Eniripsa, a Sacrier, a heavy MP stealr like a Cra or Iop, and then only one miscellaneous person who isn't needed but is helpful.)

- In what ways, if any, does the new class design model (removal of set roles for a more broad coverage/class) exhibit synergy or dysergy with this system?
Hm? Honestly, I didn't realise there was something like this going on. Admittedly, any Intelligence character with a Boogie Wand or Thanos' Staff could act as healer, but Xelors still can't take MP or push without Release, and nobody can equal a Cra when it comes to range. Each class, as far as I understand, acts in its own way - some not useful at all in a specific dungeon, some you really can't do without. I guess I misunderstood the question.

- What are the pros and cons of the new system in general?
Pros: smaller groups can do big dungeons, so more people will do big dungeons.
Cons: dungeons are longer for people who still fight with 8-person groups.

- Do these pros and cons apply equally to low through end game dungeons?
They do, as far as I'm concerned.

As an aside, though, I should point out that simply halving the group size and cutting the boss monster's HP does not make it balanced for 4 people. If you have a boss monster that summons up to 2 monsters at a time, and you're doing it with a 4-person group, then it becomes 4 against 6 until the boss monster is defeated. If you're fighting with an 8-person group, it's 8 against 10 - which is approximately as hard as 4 versus 5. Effectively, the boss is harder to fight with a smaller group, which needs addressing.

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Score : 457

I honestly think making it optional will fix everything. Sometimes it is a pro (running difficult dungeon with low number of people) and sometimes it is a con (running a lower level dungeon with one or two characters and losing drops and exp you would get from full mobs).

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Score : 151
Stefan-je-najbolji|2012-08-23 03:32:58
I honestly think making it optional will fix everything. Sometimes it is a pro (running difficult dungeon with low number of people) and sometimes it is a con (running a lower level dungeon with one or two characters and losing drops and exp you would get from full mobs).
+1 I want a choice, I don't want to soul dungeons that won't sell because of loot 4.
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Score : 6477

Before I can make a thorough report, I wanted to delve a little deeper into some issues that were raised.

1) I have seen mention of players disliking certain dungeons where you are forced to split the party.

2) Can there be some elaboration as to what the problem is specifically?
Some players intentionally split the party to make the dungy go faster until the last room.

3) Do Loot(4) or Loot(8) soul stones have drastically different values on your servers?
How do you decide to sell instead of open?

4) There have been many complaints about the 8 man dungy run.
Are the added incentives (more xp and more drops) are not enough to offset this?

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Score : 401

Number 2 - Exactly that. 8 monsters vs 4 can more than double the run time (My time with 8 chars in CB is 42min room 1, compared to 14 min with 4 chars)

number 3 - Rosal Server 20/09/2012
Bworker soul:
8 - 999,999
7 - 750,000
6 - 500,000
CB soul:
8 - 1,350,000
4 - 600,000
Crocobulia:
8 - 500,000
7 - 450,000
4 - 130,000
Kolosso:
8 - 1,600,000
4 - 350,000
Royal Gobbal: (What the hell with this price rise)
8 - 120,000
4 - 10,000

To compare pre-update, Bworkers used to sell at 800,000; CB at 1.6-1.9m; Crocobulia at 400,000; Kolosso at 1.8m - 2m; and Royal Gobball at 20k,

Time spent in lower dungeons such as Gobball are no longer worth it in terms of leveling potential.
Point 4 - Incentive wise.
Twice the XP for double the monsters, for the potential of Lots more bread/healing items, and up to 2-3x the amount of time.
Example of this being CB fights (drastic examples but cases i have done) - 32 minutes with a 4man team, 2 hours with an 8man team. Double drops and XP, but massively affecting the time taken.

Further examples of the difference in adding characters, as mentioned above, are in dungeons like blop, where is is actually worth making lvl 1 characters to drag with you to increase the limit, without ruining the cap/so you can actually reach the level cap.

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Score : 3543

Is it really too hard to make it so it's not compulsory for a small group to take on a big dungeon?

I personally think it would be nice to allow people to run the dungeon at a higher difficulty, I don't see why it's necessary to have 4 man be compulsory...

It doesn't even need much effort to implement, just requires a couple more menu options.

Some (a lot) of four man dungeons are just useless, the rewards are too small. On the contrary, 8 man dungeons take too long, especially when there are 8 people.

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