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Weapons

By Electricotter - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - August 13, 2012, 01:24:22

The content of this topic revolves around a post made by Lichen concerning weapons and a merger of two threads in response. (LINKZORZ )

Let us focus, initially, on the key, opening points, of Lichens post:
"Weapons cause too much damage at medium and high level (there are concerns at almost every level, even if the problems seem more important at very high levels).
(1) Weapon damages are "necessary" so PvM fights don’t last forever.
(2) Weapons significantly compete with spells, since their use is too often more profitable.
(3) The recurring use of weapons does not suit us (that is tactically quite poor).
(4) The classes are offensively too similar due to universal weapons.
(5) Certain weapons or types of weapons are hardly ever used."

The main body of Lichen's post offers methods of handling these 5 points. But let us, for the time being, set this aside.
We feel these points succinctly describe the main issues with weapons. How about you?
What solutions are there to keep weapons appealing, yet to make them more balanced across the board?
What are the fewest changes that can offer the greatest impact on points 1-5?
If you had to decide a "6th point", what would it be?

That second question is one that I would like to place focus on; with that in mind, let us look over the abridged version of Lichen's suggested fixes.

(a) Reducing the HP of monsters.Points impacted: 1 and 3.
(b) One universal Weapon Skill.Point impacted: 5.
(c) Weapon skill level requirements.Point impacted: 2.
(d) Weapon swing limits by AP use. Points impacted: 2, 3, and 4.
(e) Damage reduction of AoE weapons (like AoE spells have now). Points impacted: 3 and 5.
(f) Changes to critical failures.Points impacted: 2 and 3.
(g) Changes to class weapon bonuses. Points Impacted: 4 and 5.

Looking over Lichen's suggestions it would seem that a multifaceted approach is the current intention.

Point (a) is worth going into more detail with however, as this seems to be the most seriously pursued at this point.
It may be that the Devs are waiting on this systems completion to move into the next phase of weapon balance (increasing the Vit of monsters with the new dungeon system a precursor perhaps?).
To go into further detail:

"We plan to move on to a different internal system to determine the HP of monsters in a more automated fashion, using a more generic formula that could be easily changed whenever we want to reduce the HP of monsters in game."

The new dungeon system currently has its own topic where the general scaling of boss monsters can be discussed (Linkamado ), however if there is something you feel is essential to this topic, please feel free to post it.

Please keep in mind that conceptual feedback, such as why you do or do not like something, is more important than how something should be fixed.
It can easily be stated that the Shovel would be used more if it had a linear AoE of 2-3 tiles, but what leads to this statement is vastly more important and useful to the Devs.
It also tends to get a better response and potential solutions put out for discussion.

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Listed below are some questions that we would love to hear your input on:
Why should someone use a(n):
Axe?
Bow?
Dagger?
Hammer?
Shovel?
Staff?
Sword?
Wand?
When answering the above question, try taking it from the standpoint that it is the only type of weapon available.
What are its strongpoints?

Why should someone avoid using a(n):
Axe?Bow?
Dagger?
Hammer?
Shovel?
Staff?
Sword?
Wand?

Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).
How did you come to that particular ranking?

What is the main purpose of weapons?
Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?

Any other, weapon related, thoughts?

Lastly, include a question of your own. The really good ones will be editted into this post.
Community questions:

Where do you see spells after the weapon changes?

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Electricotter|2012-08-13 01:24:48
Listed below are some questions that we would love to hear your input on:
Why should someone use a(n):
Axe? Nobody uses these weapons other then to complete the set or SOME pandas and sick axe. Currently no real reason to use these.
Bow? Certain bows are used quite often in sacs and srams (snailment, and archangel I think? Not sure on the str ones name)
Dagger? Quite powerful and simple to get 1/2 in because of 1/30 base. Popular weapon for burst solo target damage. Benafits from higher ap and more + damage.
Hammer? The AoE is invaluable.
Shovel? No reason what so ever for these despite axel and xa shovel. These are by far the worse weapons in the game
Staff? AoE damage, but without the last cell. these are more for the int chars and chance charecters to have an AoE whereas hammers tend to lean towards str and agility.
Sword? Powerful solo target damage. Popular with many classes. Benefits from low amounts of casts and higher stats
Wand? For those that dont want to get directly involved in the battle and maitain some good damage from a range, (enu, eni, etc)
When answering the above question, try taking it from the standpoint that it is the only type of weapon available.
What are its strongpoints?

Why should someone avoid using a(n):
Axe? Not many high hitting axes compared to other weapons.Bow? Classes already have ranged spells and are using a weapon to cover their weak points
Dagger? They cant reach 10ap or 1/2 on them is impossible, or they dont want to sacrifice stats to get 1/2
Hammer? Sometimes dont want to hit allies and hammers prevent this, and you lose out on 10% damage attacking from a range
Shovel? No high hitting shovels.
Staff? The AoE is tricky sometimes and only gets powerful at 1/2
Sword? The sword is not your weapon, or you cannot use that element (with the pecarry blade being so obnoxiousness OP there is no reason for a class not to use one and that should be changed.)
Wand? If you have trouble escaping then you can easily be locked, in 1 vs 1 pvp this is a poor weapon choice, doesn't cover weak points of some classes.

Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).
How did you come to that particular ranking?Sword - Who doesn't like damage?Dagger - Who doesn't like damage?Hammer- Who doesn't like AoE?Staff- Who doesn't like AoE?Wand- The ranged is really useful to some classes.Bow- The epic range benefits those close combat classes and counters ranged classes well, (cras, enus, etc)Axe- The sick axe is cool and to complete a setShovel- Trash. Useless. Worthless. Not a reason on earth to use one other then axel.

What is the main purpose of weapons?
Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?Yes it mixes up the game play. AP steal is debatable as it could be considered overpowering in pvp and increased damage is more beneficial to pvm.

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?In a grinding pvm fight probably around 70-80%In a difficulty pvm fight around 20%-40%In pvp it varies from situation to situation. from 10%-50 depending who I am fighting

Any other, weapon related, thoughts?They are quite powerful indeed, but they should not be nurfed to the point where one cannot use one to cover his weak points better, and spells HAVE to be buffed if the weapons power is reduced, or the monsters ressit and hp have to also be reduced. Not just hp, but resistance too because it limits hybrid build immensely to limit use to spells only.

Lastly, include a question of your own. The really good ones will be editted into this post.
Community questions: Where do you see spells after the weapon changes?
 
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Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).

a-b. Hammer,Staff
c. Sword
d. Dagger
e. Bow
f. Wand
g. Shovel

How did you come to that particular ranking?

a-b. I love AoE + great damage/steals
c. Reliable single target damage is always welcome
d. They are random but they deal great single target damage
e. As a Sac I sometimes need range
f. I hate their minimum range requirement
g. Too low damage to be worth using

What is the main purpose of weapons?

I believe that their purpose is raw damage whereas spells' is utility(effects,steals and range)

Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?
I believe that having minor effects helps with having more varied playing styles so I would leave like that. However their utility should not surpass that of spells.

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?
In grinding fights where I just need to kill things fast, maybe 80%. In hard pvm fights about 50% and in pvp it varies from 10% to 80%
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Electricotter|2012-08-13 01:24:48
Listed below are some questions that we would love to hear your input on:
Why should someone use a(n):
Axe? - No reason to use them. They're just watered down swords, aside from maybe the one or the other halfway decent axe.
Bow? - No reason to ever use them, at least in PvM.
Dagger? - Incredible damage, super easy to get 1/2 crits on
Hammer? - The AoE is very nice, especially in PvM.
Shovel? - Total Garbage. Axel and Xa are nice okay stat sticks, i guess? Also, they have above average PP on them, but PP is problematic anyway because it only promotes leeching.
Staff? - Nice AoE, although they aren't as good as hammers, still decent weapons in PvM
Sword? - Extreme damage, most of the best weapons in the games are swords or daggers
Wand? - Some good wands exist. Limbo is a decent stat stick, Xyo is a good weapon, but most wands suck.
When answering the above question, try taking it from the standpoint that it is the only type of weapon available.
What are its strongpoints?

Why should someone avoid using a(n):
Axe? - Because Swords an Daggers do the same, but much better.
Bow? - Because the damage is just sad, really. Also, not being able to use a weapon in close range is horrible, especially if the only class to have 0% penalty on it is riddled with minimum range on spells.
Dagger? - I guess if you can't get 1/30 crits down if your life depended on it, daggers aren't very good. Also, you need 9 AP.

Hammer? - No reason to avoid them.
Shovel? - Because the damage is absolutely horrible. I know it's a shovel and in the real life a shovel isn't as strong as a sword, but why make a joke weapon class?
Staff? - No reason to avoid them.
Sword? - Why would you *not* want to use a sword?
Wand? - Low damage and then tendencially low range doesn't make up for how bad it is to have no weapon to use against something that's right next to you.

Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).

(f) Changes to critical failures.Points impacted: 2 and 3.
Critical Failures are a travesty of a game mechanic in something that claims to be a strategic game. Oh look, you just randomly lost your entire turn! Very strategic, right? I could go on all day long about how horrid critical failures are, but that's not what this topic is all about. Long story short, critical failures are just shockingly, horrifyingly, mind-blowingly bad and should be permanently removed as soon as possible.

(c) Weapon skill level requirements.Point impacted: 2.
Sure, no skin off my back. But that's the problem. It wouldn't affect the endgame.

(e) Damage reduction of AoE weapons (like AoE spells have now). Points impacted: 3 and 5.
I don't think the AoE of hammers and staffs is problematic in the current metagame where swords and daggers do insane amounts of damage.

(a) Reducing the HP of monsters.Points impacted: 1 and 3.
That wouldn't fix it. People would just slaughter monsters even faster. People wouldn't think "oh, it now only has 4000 hp, i can now fight it using my spells!". They would think "Sweet, my character can kill it in 2 turns now".

(b) One universal Weapon Skill.Point impacted: 5.
That won't solve anything. The reason why people aren't using weapons like shovels and bows is because they are very weak. All skills cost 15 points to max so i don't see why that favors a weapon over the other. I see what you're getting at, you're saying that if someone maxes the universal skill, they might as well try a different kind of weapon because they don't have to level another skill for it, but like i said, with how weak bows and shovels are, nobody wants to try them anyway.

(g) Changes to class weapon bonuses. Points Impacted: 4 and 5.
Depends on what the change would be. I wouldn't like it to be even worse so it just says "you're an enu, you must use crappy shovels, how dare you use a good weapon!" The current 10% penalty is bad enough.

(d) Weapon swing limits by AP use. Points impacted: 2, 3, and 4.
Horrible. It would just make the butt monkey classes (sadida, enu, etc.) even worse while not doing anything about classes that can already to huge amounts of damage, such as cras or iops. Also, sacriers would be absolutely crippled by this.


How did you come to that particular ranking?
I'm thinking mostly of a PvM perspective here because i'm not a fan of screwing up the game in favor of the ever-changing flavor-of-the-month PvP metagame.

What is the main purpose of weapons?
As it now, doing damage, because the hardly do anything else. Especially so for classes who are pretty awfulo at doing damage otherwise.

Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?
That is a very good idea. It would add some diversity, because at the moment, it's just running up to enemies and hitting them hard over an over again.

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?
About 70% or so.

Any other, weapon related, thoughts?
Weapons are too strong. Simple as that. Why would i use spells to do a few hundred damage when i can just use a sword for over a thousand damage a swing? Tune down these incredible damage numbers. Also, weapons offer only very little strategic functionality because all they do is damage and in a few cases AP loss. There's no MP loss, no buffs, no nothing.

The game could do so much more with weapons. Imagine a weapon that gives -30 damage for 3 turns to the target, per example. Such a weapon would have a defensive use because it means that you get hit for less damage. Or a weapon that pushes the monster back a tile when hit. Or a weapon that takes away a bit of range, or a weapon that hits hard but gives the enemy a resistance buff to the element it hits in so you have to think about when it's appropriate to use it. The possibilities are endless. Instead, all the do is damage, and sometimes AP loss (which is almost useless in PvM). What a shame.


Lastly, include a question of your own. The really good ones will be editted into this post.
Community questions:
Why do you keep making such insane weapons like Az'tech, Godswrath Daggers, Rampant Bearbarian Hammer, Peccary Blade and Otomai's Sword (just added in the latest update) when you know that weapons are too powerful?

Where do you see spells after the weapon changes?

The same as they are now.
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There haven't been that many replies so far but I thought I might ask some follow up questions.

Say weapons were given some utility, wouldn't this just make weapons even more popular and spammed even more?

Would utility on weapons be desirable if it meant an even greater reduction in damage dealt?

What about the concept of class restrictions?

Assuming more weapons were introduced of each type, perhaps with utility (counting heavy damage as a utility option), would this be acceptable?

Every class having access to these same overpowered weapons means that an Eni can hit just as hard as an Iop but it gets to do supreme healing as well.

How can this be favorably addressed?

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Electricotter|2012-08-14 01:28:49
There haven't been that many replies so far but I thought I might ask some follow up questions.

Say weapons were given some utility, wouldn't this just make weapons even more popular and spammed even more?

Would utility on weapons be desirable if it meant an even greater reduction in damage dealt?

What about the concept of class restrictions? Dont leave my enu with a worthless piece of crap. I want a sword on my mask 0_O Not a staff. Full restrictions are stupid and lame sad

Assuming more weapons were introduced of each type, perhaps with utility (counting heavy damage as a utility option), would this be acceptable? Nope.

Every class having access to these same overpowered weapons means that an Eni can hit just as hard as an Iop but it gets to do supreme healing as well.

How can this be favorably addressed? Bigger penalties for those classes. (fecas, enis, rouges, etc).
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Electricotter|2012-08-14 01:28:49
There haven't been that many replies so far but I thought I might ask some follow up questions.

Say weapons were given some utility, wouldn't this just make weapons even more popular and spammed even more?

Well no, the weapons shouldn't be better, they should just be more diverse. Of course a weapon that inflicts some debuf should hit for a bit less than an equivalent "normal" weapon. Of course, they can't be much weaker or people will just consider using the current crazy weapons.

Would utility on weapons be desirable if it meant an even greater reduction in damage dealt?

Yeah. It would generally be good if they toned down the damage of some weapons a bit. Ankama shoulds finally get to work on being able to change the damage on existing weapons so we can have some fine-tuned nerfs instead of just "costs one more AP, now it goes from a bit too strong to trash".

What about the concept of class restrictions?

Sounds pretty horrid to me. Nobody would want to play an enu or sadida.

Assuming more weapons were introduced of each type, perhaps with utility (counting heavy damage as a utility option), would this be acceptable?

Yes, very.


Every class having access to these same overpowered weapons means that an Eni can hit just as hard as an Iop but it gets to do supreme healing as well.

How can this be favorably addressed?

It's not a problem in my eyes. Say an eni can hit as hard as an iop with a weapon. Now, the eni can also heal and stim, as well as stuff like preventing word, word of thorns, and so on. The iop, on the other hand, has a vast array of damage buffs (which ultimately makes him hit harder than the eni) as well as lots of spells that do a lot of damage at range, much stronger and more versatile than the eni's ranged attack options. Not to mention abilites like Jump (we all know how useful teleportation is, and now it has a nice res debuff on it, making iops hit stuff even harder), Vitality, Brokle (further increases the average damage), wrath's special damage scheme, multiple spells that push around targets, and so on.

So basically, both classes can hit well with weapons, the difference is that the iop's spells are all geared towards increasing damage, doing damage and getting set up to do damage (be it weapons or spells), while the eni's spells are more geared towards healing and avoiding damage. I don't see any problem with this current concept.
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Let us perhaps, set aside weapon categories as the decider in what sets these class restricted weapons.

I don't mean Enu's restricted to the hammer and shovel, but rather having a specific weapon pool, with several exclusive weapons to pick from?
Though the scope may be far to labor intensive of such a task.

If Iops were one of the few to have access to a Peccary, for example, wouldn't this open room in their spell arsenal to remove the somewhat redundant spells and insert more useful and diverse utility?

Likewise, if only the Eniripsa had access to healing weapons, wouldn't this open their spellbook to other options as well?

When I say class specific weapons this is, in effect, what I mean.

Balancing not only the weapons, but the weapons offering balance to a class as well.

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No doubt no matter what kind of nerf is suggested to weapons, PvM players won't be happy.

I say that there should be a 50% damage/heal penalty for using weapons in PvP.

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LordGreyDragon|2012-01-16 17:56:42
It is our opinion that currently:
  • Weapons cause too much damage in the mid-to-high level range (truthfully, this problem is seen in most levels of the game, but it seems to be most problematic in the very high levels)
  • If you wouldn't continually nerf spells for PvP the damage between spells and weapons would be more even.
  • This weapon damage is seen a "necessary" to prevent PvM fights from dragging on too long.
  • Because you have nerfed and changed spells for PvP "balancing" making PvM more frustrating and have not "balanced" the monsters.
  • This weapon damage output overshadows the use of spells, because the use of weapons is often more profitable.
  • Because spells have been nerfed for PvP.
  • Repeated weapon attacks as the main type of offensive action doesn't appeal to us (because it is an overly simplistic tactic)
  • By nerffing our spells you have chosen to limit what tactics we have to fight monsters.
  • Universal use of weapons has blurred the distinct lines between the character classes, giving most classes similar offensive potential.
  • Since 1.27 your goal in "balancing" the classes is what has blurred the lines between the classes.Was not it your goal for 1vs1 PvP to give classes similar offensive potential?
  • Certain weapon types and weapons are rarely used.
  • That is due to a lack of good weapons for certain classes.As an example Enus are supposed to use shoves 95% of shovels are useless.
Yes there are some high level weapons that should have the damage reduced(mostly swords)but a lot of weapons are almost useless pick a shovel almost any shovel.The question the developers should be asking is not why are more players using weapons? They should be asking why aren't players using spells more? Then again they already know the answer because for the sake of "balancing" spells have been changed to the point where many are almost useless longer cool downs,less damage bizzare range and penalty schemes.Meanwhile the PvM players are told yes we know we have to balance the monsters for PvM because of changes we made for PvP but it is to hard right now so put up with it and by the way we want to make it harder for you by reducing weapon damage before we balance the monsters.

Hows this for an answer reduce damage for some of the high end weapons and actually make the spells worth using again and by all the gods of the world of 12 give Enus some shovels worth using.
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here are some suggestions that I think could help

    • take off critical failure on all spell to make them 100% reliable and make weapon failures less fatal: maybe replace pass turn with the caster only have movement spells left?(release(push back that does no direct damage), jumping spells) this would make critical failing on weapons in for example korriander less painful
    • make the current weapons differ from each other(adding an area of effect on the weapon types that are currently considered unused)?
    • making more weapons of the types that are currently considered unused?
    • have all spells give a secondary effect
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Why should someone use a(n):

Axe?
Atm axes generally aren't used, with a few exceptions. Sometimes someone will use a zoth warrior axe for the extra ap, and there are a few other axes that are used as decent, single-target weapons. There are only a few axes that see any use at all though.

Bow? The bow is generally used when a player wishes to have a good ranged-damage option.

Dagger?
Daggers are often used by players who wish to have a good single-target damage weapon. They may like the huge damage potential that can come from a string of critical hits, and they may also like the low casting-cost that comes with most of these weapons. A lot of daggers tend to also be multi-hit, so that combined with their low ap costs allows for a character to get the most out of his/her + damage.

Hammer? Hammers are generally favored for their good aoe damage capabilities. There are also some pretty decent CC options for chance builds.

Shovel?
Shovels generally aren't that good. There are maybe only 2 decent shovels in the game. The Elven shovel can be an option as a single-target damage weapon for a pure chance build. Emlaka's also pretty decent. The vespic shovel is also ok. The professor Xa shovel allows a player to gain an extra ap, although at a hefty cost. I guess the main reason to use a shovel would be if you're a chance build at epic levels, although there are other good alternatives available.

Staff? A staff is generally used for the same reason a hammer is used, for the aoe damage. While a staff is less likely to hit multiple targets than a hammer, it's more likely to have extra effects with it, like ap loss and life stealing. I also noticed there aren't really any chance staffs at higher levels.

Sword?
Swords are pretty much used for high single-target damage. They tend to cater to str builds, although there are a few good swords in other elements. Generally, though, other elemental builds look elsewhere for other weapon types. They also tend to have a higher ap cost of 5 ap.

Wand?
Wands are used as a viable mid-ranged weapon option. While they don't have as much range as bows, they tend to deal more damage than them.


Why should someone avoid using a(n):


Axe?
Generally, axes are very similar to swords. A lot of them aren't as good though.

Bow?
If the build in question doesn't really need any range, there's usually no point in using a bow. Also the minimum range can hurt you at times.

Dagger? If someone doesn't want to spread out their attacks over several small parts, daggers are a really bad choice. Defensive reduction abilities tend to almost completely nullify the damage daggers deal.

Hammer?
Sometimes using a hammer can lead to unavoidable situations where to hit an enemy with CC, they'd also have to hit an ally.

Shovel? Most shovels are really bad.

Staff?
Same reason as a hammer.

Sword?
Often times large 5 ap weapons are affected more adversely by ap theft. Preventing a swing from a 5 ap weapon prevents a lot more damage than preventing a swing from a 3 or 4 ap weapon.

Wand?
The minimum range can sometimes make you wish you equipped another weapon.


Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).

How did you come to that particular ranking?


I'd just like to point out that before any of these are implemented, there should be a universal nerf to weapon damage across the board at the high and epic levels. I'd say that no weapon should deal an average amount of damage equal to around half of the max hp of most classes, which for the epic levels would be around 1.8k-2k damage or so atm. AOE and ranged weapons should deal even less, there are a lot of staffs, hammers, and even some wands that deal as much damage as epic leveled single-target weapons. There are even some bows that deal too much damage (Contemporary bow comes to mind as an example). Also, I'd like to say that there are a lot of balancing problems with equipment in this game (something no one really seems to be talking about). I don't mean to derail this topic but I do feel that it's worth mentioning, and there should be a seperate zenith discussion on the matter of dofus equipment.

(b) One universal Weapon Skill.Point impacted: 5.


I actually like this idea a lot. One of the many barriers right now to using different weapon types is the fact that you have to learn the weapon skill for every single one of those weapons. Of course, the devs have to ensure all the different weapon types are worth using, but doing so combined with this suggestion can go a long way in ensuring different weapons are used. If this is implemented, though, they should release some new elementary spells to ensure that players who have decided to lvl multiple weapon skills will have something to level.

(e) Damage reduction of AoE weapons (like AoE spells have now). Points impacted: 3 and 5.

This kind of goes hand-in-hand with what I mentioned earlier in regards to aoe weapons being too powerful in comparison to single-target weapons.

(f) Changes to critical failures.Points impacted: 2 and 3.

Critical failures should be completely removed from the game. They add no tactical value to the game, and make the game a lot less fun to play. It sucks to wait for your turn, planning out your move ahead of time, only to lose it completely over chance.

(g) Changes to class weapon bonuses. Points Impacted: 4 and 5.

This should definitely be addressed. I don't think 90% is a severe enough penalty to prevent someone from using a weapon (especially when you consider it only affects base damage and has no effect on + damage). The weapon penalties should be 90% for secondary weapons, and 80% to tertiary weapons. Also, some of the class weapons don't make any sense. Why, for example, do rogues have swords as a primary weapon, considering they're supposed to be fragile in CC? Cras having daggers as a secondary weapon is also problematic for similar reasons.

I'd like to emphasize that I think the main problem with the current weapon system is in regards to the classes. The problem with allowing an eni to hit incredibly hard with a single-target weapon (like an iop) is that by doing so you're making it dangerous to approach the eni in CC. Being able to approach a support class for CC should not be dangerous, doing so should be tactically advantageous. I also don't like how bows grant classes with limited ranged ability hard hitting ranged-attacks, while tactically doing almost nothing for classes with strong ranged options. That's why I think bows should give a damage bonus to ranged spells, if possible.

(a) Reducing the HP of monsters.Points impacted: 1 and 3.

This by itself wont do anything, I agree with blazeron that simply lowering monster hp while doing nothing to weapons would simply allow one to kill these monsters even faster with weapons. It's something that definitely has to be done if weapon damage is lowered though.

(d) Weapon swing limits by AP use. Points impacted: 2, 3, and 4.

This could be a cheap solution, but I don't like it. It'd be better to just lower weapon damage. Also, doing this could potentially drastically reduce the importance of weapon skill, depending on how much weapons are being limited. I generally prefer having more viable options over creating artificial diversity in actions through limits.

(c) Weapon skill level requirements.Point impacted: 2.

This really wont do anything to solve the problem. The main problem in regards to weapons exists mostly at the high and epic levels. The only way this could have an impact is the devs mean to increase the level requirement to, say, 100 or so. Doing so would just cause another problem in creating a huge disparity between level 200s and everyone else, without doing anything to solve the weapon problem at those levels. I'd advise strongly against going down this path.

.
What is the main purpose of weapons? The main purpose of weapons right now is to allow players to deal more damage. They also sometimes allow players to cover weaknesses in their build ( by having extra range with a wand or bow, or having some aoe with a staff or hammer for example).

Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?


There's nothing wrong with having weapons that offer utility, but they should generally do so at a cost of dealing lower damage than other weapons, and by not being effective as spells in their utility. Generally, I feel bows and wands should boost spell damage (since a lot of spells are ranged, these weapons tend to compete with them), shovels should have something unique to using them (Preferably something that would be useful for support classes), and axes should have something that sets them apart from swords because they're generally too similar (except swords tend to deal more damage). Swords should remain the main high ap single-target damage weapon, with daggers being the low ap option. Staffs and hammers are fine as aoe weapons, with hammers offering more aoe while staffs offer either more damage or something else in exchange (like life-stealing or ap theft).

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?

As a sacrier, pretty much every time I attack I use a weapon XD So easily 80% of the time I'm attacking with a sac I'm using a weapon (not counting weapon skill obviously). With another class that has ranged attack options and other utility spells, it depends on the fight and class. If it's an easy fight and the class doesn't have aoe, then I'm definitely using a weapon as my preferred method of attacking. If it's a difficult fight, I use weapons depending on the situation.

Lastly, include a question of your own. The really good ones will be editted into this post.


What role should weapons play in this game?


Personally, I think weapons should be used to highlight and differentiate the different classes, while also offering some customization options. Weapons should create certain squares and team formations to be dangerous. Single-target weapons should make it dangerous to step in front of a character wielding one, especially if the character class is skilled in using that weapon. Staffs and Hammers should make it dangerous to be in their AOEs with an ally. Wands and Bows should make it dangerous to seek ranged combat with their wielders, especially those that are proficient with them (which is right now not always the case, it really doesn't matter if a cra uses a bow or not, for example).

There should also be a significant difference when the different classes use them. If an eni is wielding a sword, for example, it shouldn't be dangerous under normal circumstances for a sword-wielding iop to try and approach them, it should in fact potentially be tactically advantageous to do so. The advantage in having a support unit like an eni use such a weapon should be against other support classes in direct combat only.

Generally, I feel this is mostly problematic at the high and epic levels.

Community questions:

Where do you see spells after the weapon changes?


I'm admittedly not very optimistic on how the devs are going to tackle this, but only time will tell. I feel like things will either remain the same, or weapons will be completely destroyed.

Just Wanted to add

I'm personally curious as to why the devs prioritized making changes to Iops over the weapon changes. It's kind of ass-backwards to make such drastic changes to a single class, while postponing a change that will affect everyone.

Also I think it's worth mentioning what exactly is making weapon damage OP. It's a combination of a lot of factors. For one, it used to be that getting +50 damage from your gear was respectable. With the new frig equipment, it's easily possible to get over +100 elemental damage in an element. In fact, I've seen a lot of dual-elemental builds get +100 in two elements. This has drastically increased the damage potential of multi-hit weapons in comparison to spell damage. Also, it used to be that If a weapon consisted of multiple hits, you'd often have each of those parts be a different element. Now, they've released weapons with 2 or 3 hits per swing all capable of being a single element.

The other factor is just plain power-creep. They simply released much better weapons in comparison to the old ones. I've never before seen a bow easily hit 2k damage over a turn. The base damage for a lot of the new weapons is a lot higher than what has usually been used per ap. They also tend to more easily tack on extra effects like life-stealing and ap loss.

In fact, I'd say that this weapon problem has reappeared relatively recently. I don't recall it being this bad just a few years back when, say, the best str swords str builds used were killarity or kukri kura.
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Why should someone use a(n):

Axe?
I can't think of any reason to use an axe unless it is Zoth axe for the extra AP.

Bow? I rarely use bows, even as a cra because they have strange stat requirements and high AP. Additionally they are very ineffective at actually hitting things because of their strange range. Also my range needs are well taken care of by my spells. I just need backup when I am in CC.

Dagger?
Daggers are awesome for destroying single targets and they are easy to reach 1/2 with.

Hammer? Hammers are pretty good though they are tricky to use effectively if you are near allies. My enu uses a water maged ougahammer and it is pretty much the only thing making him an effective damage dealer.

Shovel?
Shovels are generally terrible. Only a few of them are useful for stats.

Staff? I use a stormcloud staff on my cra for CC damage and I like it a lot. It is useful for when monsters get to close and my spells fail me.

Sword?
I've never used a sword, mostly because they seem very str focused (except for Otomais sword).

Wand?
I'm thinking about getting a water maged wand for my enu for midrange weapon support. They seem quite good, although even more range restrictive than bows, at least they will hit harder for less AP.


Why should someone avoid using a(n):


Axe?
Because they have terrible hits.

Bow?
Spells take care of the ranged needs of most classes, and are more versatile and easier to use than the high AP bows.

Dagger? In PvM daggers can be a bad choice because in PvM you are more likely to get swarmed by monsters where you are going to need AoE to survive. Daggers are a PvP weapon to me.

Hammer?
It can be frustrating to use if you allies stay to close to you.

Shovel? Most shovels are really bad.

Staff?
Same reason as a hammer.

Sword?
The high AP cost makes it harder to be effective.

Wand?
Minimum range.

Please rank in order, from most to least favorable, the proposed fixes for weapons (a-g).

Personally I think the proposed changes to lower the power of weapons are approaching the matter from the wrong perspective: they all assume that weapon damage should be lowered or that weapon should be made weaker because spells are too weak.

What I think makes more sense is to make it easier to shield against weapons attacks by making weapon attacks be more strongly affected by a character's resistances, and make spells able to get through shielding and resistance easier. This will reduce the effectiveness of weapons against shielded characters more and increase the effectiveness of spells against shielded characters.

In most decent RPG games there is a difference between magic shielding and physical shielding. I think a big part of the problem is that there is no differentiating between a weapon attack and a spell attack. A spell attack being a magical force should bypass shields, whereas a weapon can glance off or armor or a shield and thus have its attack deadened.

I think such a system would make it possible to retain the power of weapons against some monsters while making spells more effective against others.

What is the main purpose of weapons? Right now for me weapons are useful killing monsters when they get to close and start threatening me.

Should weapons offer any utility (such as healing or AP removal)?


Yes I feel weapons should be able to offer more utilities at the expense of damage. But there should still be high damage, no utility weapons to chose from.

In the average fight, what % of your AP goes to weapon use?

I would say maybe 30% to 50% of my AP goes to weapons use as I play a character which uses 1/2 explosive arrow a lot, and only really attacks in CC when monsters get to close.


What role should weapons play in this game?


As explained earlier I feel that physical attacks should be separated from magical attacks and that there should be some players and monsters which are more vulnerable to magical attacks and strongly shielded from physical attacks, and some monsters and players which are vulnerable to physical attacks and strongly shielded from magical attacks.

Where do you see spells after the weapon changes?


I really hope that weapons aren't messed up by the change. I like fighting high HP monsters and doing high damage with weapons. I'd rather see spells buffed a little than see the HP of monsters and the power of weapons reduced.
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This topic has fallen to the wayside recently so I have decided to post some hypotheticals Whadda and I discussed.

In terms of Class Weapons, such as the Xelor having Wands and Hammers, it seems there would be better ways to motivate one to use these weapons other than damage.

Weapons currently give little to no utility with -AP and healing potential being the only options aside from damage.

Most classes also have a certain dichotomy in terms of build.

Would it be far fetched for each class to receive certain utility bonuses depending on the weapon they wield?

If Eni's, for example, received a level based healing increase when wielding a Wand, wouldn't this help to make the Chance Eni more viable?

The same Eni could instead, when wielding a Staff, gain increased Spell Power, or a level based + damage(spells only).

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Limiting classes to a group of weapons that can only augment what the class can already do is extremely harsh in my opinion. Using Enis for an, admittedly biased, example, restricting us to healing weapons only would cause a lot of players to simply quit because our way of playing was thoroughly destroyed by this change. We use weapons in order to augment our damage, and due to how weapon restrictions and damages are, we are already limited in choice to begin with.
This leads me into how ankama can make certain weapon types better used. If the classes using wands as prim/sec weapons have mostly intel builds, make wands with FIRE DAMAGE the most common, especially at endgame. Endgame has what? 5 wands, two of them useable? If weapons have to be forgemaged in order to be used, that detracts from the weapon a lot. That's why many Enis are using a limbo wand or xyothine until well into the 190s-there just isn't a replacement that's not crap.

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I think you misunderstood.
There would be no weapon restriction, no damage bonus or penalty.
You would simply get a certain class based bonus for using one of your primary weapon types, designed with synergy to each classes design.

There would be no such restriction that you mentioned.

I agree completely about elemental weapons being more prominent, however this applies to the entire spectrum of levels rather than just end game.

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Electricotter|2012-09-25 03:50:33
This topic has fallen to the wayside recently so I have decided to post some hypotheticals Whadda and I discussed.

In terms of Class Weapons, such as the Xelor having Wands and Hammers, it seems there would be better ways to motivate one to use these weapons other than damage.

Weapons currently give little to no utility with -AP and healing potential being the only options aside from damage.

Most classes also have a certain dichotomy in terms of build.

Would it be far fetched for each class to receive certain utility bonuses depending on the weapon they wield?

If Eni's, for example, received a level based healing increase when wielding a Wand, wouldn't this help to make the Chance Eni more viable?

The same Eni could instead, when wielding a Staff, gain increased Spell Power, or a level based + damage(spells only).

I don't think so. It would just give a lot of classes an unnecessary boost for using a weapon that they're already using (such as Eniripsa or Xelor), while forcing other classes to use a weapon that they wouldn't normally use (Enutrof and Rogue). Sure there are other weapons that these classes could use, however this just does nothing but hinder about 50% of the classes.

No matter how word it, there will always be one weapon that gives a bonus greatest to that specific class, such as a Rogue weapon giving spellpower, or a Xelor weapon granting AP removal, and this will be the only weapon the class uses, which I do not agree with. It'd be the same as weapon restriction.
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kakisuka|2012-09-25 15:18:49
Electricotter|2012-09-25 03:50:33

I don't think so. It would just give a lot of classes an unnecessary boost for using a weapon that they're already using (such as Eniripsa or Xelor), while forcing other classes to use a weapon that they wouldn't normally use (Enutrof and Rogue). Sure there are other weapons that these classes could use, however this just does nothing but hinder about 50% of the classes.

No matter how word it, there will always be one weapon that gives a bonus greatest to that specific class, such as a Rogue weapon giving spellpower, or a Xelor weapon granting AP removal, and this will be the only weapon the class uses, which I do not agree with. It'd be the same as weapon restriction.
It wouldnt be a matter of forcing anything. The class boosts are what a class would choose over a weapon with more damage ability. Certain staffs for example, like stormcloud and sunshade, would simply give LESS of a class boost because of their greater damage than compared to other staffs.

And you're trying to box classes into a closed room they dont necessarily fit in. An eni isnt always going to wear a wand or staff for example, if they're wearing a full korri set, it just isnt possible. IF you introduced class set weapons however, that may change.

Something else I've thought a lot about, and is similar to what was brought up with the class pieces being able to fit into existing sets, is the ability to obtain runes from set pieces that would allow you to mage that equipment into the set to raise set bonuses. It would be limited to non-set pieces and restricted to 1 "set mage" being worn at a time. This would allow people to more easily use weapons of their classes if they can mage a non-set weapon into the weapon slot of a set.
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Whadda and I had actually talked about a rather convoluted system which would grant benefits to certain spells when you had X weapon type equipped.

For example if you cast Lifting Word your next Wand attack wouldn't require Line of Sight.
While another spell, such as Frightening Word would add pushback to your next Staff attack.

These example are arbitrary, but simply convey the point.

The Sac would have a few spells that had a different effect for each weapon type, such as a Bow attack increasing the range of Absorption.

This dates back to weapon-spell and spell-spell combos that was discussed in one of the threads linked in the OP.

This Class Weapon system was derivative of that.

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