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Ecaflip Balancing

By Frunupulax August 13, 2012, 10:48:31
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Score : 441

Felintion is 12-15% while clover is active if i recall correctly. I know int ecas don't normally use clover but with this last change i feel as if it should start to shine outstandingly; and if they have high int I'm sure within a 3-4 turn process they can heal upwards to 60-75% of their teams hp using AoN and perception alone while clover is active.

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Score : 1857
ZEROxz|2014-06-09 16:47:21
Felintion is 12-15% while clover is active if i recall correctly.


vagabaka|2014-06-05 18:42:52
This healing may be inefficient, but overall, non-int Ecaflips still have had their healing ability increased in this and the previous update, so it's hard to justify increasing it further in Clover.


Lynn-Reiginleif|2014-06-05 16:51:51
Felinition: this one, I have a problem with. 6% heals at lvl 5, and 8% at lvl 6? This is practically nothing.

I'm kinda confused as to what felintion's healing is at level 6 with and without clover. Is it 8% for both? :wacko:
Doesn't help that in-game spell descriptions often lack important information or worse, have completely wrong descriptions.
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Score : 441

Clover heals 8% at lvl 6 and it has a multiplier of x1.5 with clover active, so the %hp heal is 12% with clover activated.

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Score : 6161

Oh, so I'm ok with the update.

Also, the FS unbewitch was implemented AND it doesn't work on eca self debuffs (like -resistance or unhealable). So, I guess it's a bit more fair. Still pretty powerful, and should probably have it's damage nerfed a bit, but I like the changes, then.

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Score : 1423

I like the update, this forces ecas to use clover more to survive because atm eca is the same 90% of the time in kolo, catnip/smell -> wof -> rush -> hit -> luck -> wof -> hit.

At least now we get to see some clover gameplay will be more interesting.

I made an eca and let's say I will definitely lean more toward agi/cha and omni than str or int with this update.

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Score : 2951

Please find below a quick translation of Briss' post addressing some player comments related to the Ecaflip changes, brought forward with the 2.21 update. I apologise in advance for any typos or/and grammatical mistakes.

(...)We are aware that the Ecaflip class will continue to be part of the PvP elite (at least) after this update. Our goal, as explained in the changelog, wasn't about reducing power but rather to tweak some spells: mainly Reflex and Feline Spirit. Other added changes came to be for the same reasons, without significant changes to the power and playstyle of Ecaflips.

The good healing capabilities of the Intelligence build - thanks to AoN - are totally appropriate with the effect offset by a turn, which makes it not only predictable but also difficult to exploit. However, it is rather powerful. The same applies to its damages, which are systematically inflicted onto the caster (not in Lucky Devil state).

Regarding the Strength build, it is the only one that doesn't benefit from positive changes under the Lucky Devil state. It doesn't bother us that the different elemental builds do not benefit equally from this state. It still keeps 3 damaging spells (if we only account for pure earth-damaging spells): Feline Spirit, Heads or Tails (which no longer heals enemies when in Lucky Devil state) and Fate of Ecaflip. This seems sufficient enough to offer a competitive build, combined with other abilities opened to the Ecaflip when in Lucky Devil state.This build is the most robust, thanks to the Ecaflip softcaps: it can have more base strength, which makes the various damage/power/strength bonuses or maluses proportionally less interesting. With this in mind, we have come to the decision that earth damaging spells won't be have too much impact on the state an Ecaflip is in, in order to keep some sort of consistency for this build.

With regards to the agility, intelligence, and chance builds, these are more delicate to balance when it comes to values/numbers because of their not-so-advantageous softcaps, which makes the equipment a lot more important.Our overall conclusion is that the 4 elemental builds work well, be it as mono elemental, hybrids, three-way hybrids or even omni. This was one of our main objectives for this adjustment of the Ecaflip class and we are overall satisfied with the result.

However, and this applies to all Ecaflip spells (even all classes), changes to values (increase, decrease of damage values or other effects) are the easiest to implement, even if they require some contemplation time beforehand. If the majority of the current problems linked to the Ecaflip class are due to values that are too high or not high enough, then that is actually a good thing. Obviously, it would be too easy to summarize problems this way but it is a reoccurring complaint we have noticed when we read the forums.

I am aware that I am not addressing all the points raised, but rather the overall feeling about the situation. And you know that just because we do not address something it doesn't mean that it is not taken into account.
If you would like me to address specific points that you think deserve a little more detail, please do not hesitate to let me know by replying to this message.
 
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Score : 86

Can someone explain to me why exactly WoF, FS, and Clover have such spit penalties?

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Score : 6161

To compensate for the versatility and power the class has overall. Since it can be a damage dealer, a healer and a support class, all at once, it needs penalties to be balanced.

In fact, I think that FS's penalties are too tame for the damage it does, and can even be used in favor of the eca. It's interesting, sure, but I can't help but feel it's too powerful right now. A damage reduction should happen.

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Score : 17052

Ecaflips have too much versatility. High damage, healing, HIGH MOBILITY. They no longer have any risk!

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Score : 6161

Yes, because they also don't have the ability to turn the tides in such a big way, are a lot more predictable, and lost a LOT of range. Most of the risk is gone, but the rewards are also lower. Plus, once the soft cap changes hit, the damages will be rebalanced, and then omni ecas won't be nearly as good, which will hurt versatility. So, yeah. I do agree that some of the damage spells are a bit too powerful, but that is because the softcaps are all bad, which makes spells stronger, which in turn makes %power a lot more effective. Once the damages are turned down, ecas will be a LOT less scary.

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Score : 17052

They may have lost range, but who needs high range when you have ridiculous amounts of mobility. Also, they still have some good range, Playful Claw has good range and doesn't even have LoS.

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Score : 6161

If you call 5 range "good". I call it close combat range. Sword of iop has similar damage, bigger AoE AND bigger range, and that's THE close combat class. Plus, it's like when whip was changed from insta-kill to summons to what it is today: what we have today may be good, but it was so much better with modifiable range that I can't help but dislike it. So, I fully admit that the spell may be fine and I'm just biased against it, but that doesn't mean it is overly powerful.

Plus, yes, eca can have good mobility...by the cost of AP. Eca defenses are NOT good, meant mostly to stall. While catnip is spammable, smell isn't, and can be quite easily punished. Steal an eca's MP and range, and he WILL have a hard time with doing anything. Ecas are much easier to predict, and thus, easier to counter. And again, as I said, damages will suffer with the soft cap shift, which will be a severe nerf for hybrid builds, so that should already be enough. Just be patient.

EDIT:
Read the changes in 2.30. Contrary to most, I believe these will be overall good for the game...BUT it highlighted 2 issues ecas have now.

1: Feline spirit does stupid damage. I said it before, but now it's a lot more visible due to other high base damage spells being lowered. Feline spirit needs to be toned down in damage, because the drawback is not enough to compensate.

2: topkaj needs something. The damage is meh, the range is poor, the 2/target/turn limitation doesn't make sense anymore, the spell is boring, and the int build in general has little to no draws to it, when all builds can be decent healers. Int healing aspect is somewhat buffed, yes, but still...topkaj could have some side effect to it. Maybe -10 damage/cast on the target? Lose the debuff under clover and become lifesteal? I dunno. Anything.

Also, not that I really care, but weren't our critical hit damages going to be buffed?

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Score : 77

Lynn, I'm not sure Feline Spirit does 'too much' damage because of its drawback of reducing buff durations. If you look at it from a damage-per-AP perspective it definitely seems very high. But it's also not exploitable over a number of turns because most damage buffs, especially %-damage buffs, have significant cooldowns. Therefore, the 'high damage' component of FS is balanced against the reduction in duration of power buffs.

(Sure, it might be possible to stack power buffs so that they run out in the same turn, but this requires a lot of planning to execute properly, considering the short range of FS as well. Using this method to limit the drawback of FS is also restricted to one use every few turns.)

In short, I agree that FS does stupid damage (per AP), but I don't think it's unbalanced because the Eca has to pay for it either (a) in the turns that follow, by losing stacked buffs; or (b) in the preceding turns, through careful and not-so-easy planning/positioning, to ensure that FS can be used to maximum benefit. FS isn't a one-shotting sort of spell either, so even if (b) comes to pass, the efficiency of FS is simply maximized, but opposing teams/monsters still have a chance to counter.

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Score : 747
Lynn-Reiginleif|2015-08-20 23:02:20
If you call 5 range "good". I call it close combat range. Sword of iop has similar damage, bigger AoE AND bigger range, and that's THE close combat class. Plus, it's like when whip was changed from insta-kill to summons to what it is today: what we have today may be good, but it was so much better with modifiable range that I can't help but dislike it. So, I fully admit that the spell may be fine and I'm just biased against it, but that doesn't mean it is overly powerful.

Plus, yes, eca can have good mobility...by the cost of AP. Eca defenses are NOT good, meant mostly to stall. While catnip is spammable, smell isn't, and can be quite easily punished. Steal an eca's MP and range, and he WILL have a hard time with doing anything. Ecas are much easier to predict, and thus, easier to counter. And again, as I said, damages will suffer with the soft cap shift, which will be a severe nerf for hybrid builds, so that should already be enough. Just be patient.

EDIT:
Read the changes in 2.30. Contrary to most, I believe these will be overall good for the game...BUT it highlighted 2 issues ecas have now.

1: Feline spirit does stupid damage. I said it before, but now it's a lot more visible due to other high base damage spells being lowered. Feline spirit needs to be toned down in damage, because the drawback is not enough to compensate.

2: topkaj needs something. The damage is meh, the range is poor, the 2/target/turn limitation doesn't make sense anymore, the spell is boring, and the int build in general has little to no draws to it, when all builds can be decent healers. Int healing aspect is somewhat buffed, yes, but still...topkaj could have some side effect to it. Maybe -10 damage/cast on the target? Lose the debuff under clover and become lifesteal? I dunno. Anything.

Also, not that I really care, but weren't our critical hit damages going to be buffed?

  1. But Playfull is non LoS.
  2. Every class has a problem when you steal it's MP & Range.
  3. Eca got the best defence spell ever called luck. Wich is an extra turn to blitz.
  4. No, Int eca can heal 1k easy with AoN. Dont give it a steal attack to. because it will be impossible to kill with Luck & Kitten & Repercussion.
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Nerfable|2015-08-21 08:12:40
Lynn, I'm not sure Feline Spirit does 'too much' damage because of its drawback of reducing buff durations. If you look at it from a damage-per-AP perspective it definitely seems very high. But it's also not exploitable over a number of turns because most damage buffs, especially %-damage buffs, have significant cooldowns. Therefore, the 'high damage' component of FS is balanced against the reduction in duration of power buffs.

(Sure, it might be possible to stack power buffs so that they run out in the same turn, but this requires a lot of planning to execute properly, considering the short range of FS as well. Using this method to limit the drawback of FS is also restricted to one use every few turns.)

In short, I agree that FS does stupid damage (per AP), but I don't think it's unbalanced because the Eca has to pay for it either (a) in the turns that follow, by losing stacked buffs; or (b) in the preceding turns, through careful and not-so-easy planning/positioning, to ensure that FS can be used to maximum benefit. FS isn't a one-shotting sort of spell either, so even if (b) comes to pass, the efficiency of FS is simply maximized, but opposing teams/monsters still have a chance to counter.
The drawback only applies IF you don't recast, and even then, it can be used in your favor (to, say, make a debuff last less). The damage is quite ridiculous. Plus, you can't use it on the same target, but you can use it in other targets, AND it helps you move around. I don't think neither the limitations nor the drawback justify this much damage. With proper support or planning, you can do it pretty easily and escape or even turn the drawbacks in your favor.

@fooked: 1: So? It had non LoS before, AND better range.
2: Some more than others. Ecas have more trouble.
3: Luck is not a defense. It's a stalling tool. You get 1 turn and then either you hide far away and don't have range to act, or you die in the next turn anyway. Plastron is a defense; preventing word is a defense; luck is a stalling spell.
4: look at the new numbers, please. Plus, it's not like topkaj would be a strong lifesteal.Also, impossible to kill? Hah. Ecas are pretty frail. As I said, they have stalling spells, and that's it. Repercussion runs out so fast it only makes a difference if theres an eni dedicated to healing you. Otherwise, when it runs out, you die anyway. Also, honestly, I don't care if topkaj is or isn't a lifesteal; it only needs a side effect, better range, or better cast/target/turn, because as is, int ecas will deal very low damage and their support isn't so much better than other ecas.
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Score : 2146

Gambling and a reliance on luck is what's supposed to define the Ecaflip. How well does this background translate into gameplay? Do you think the spells should be more or less luck-based?

  • How does the Ecaflip compare to other classes in PvM? How about PvP? Are they a valuable team member?
  • Do Ecaflips have abilities that are underused? Why do you think these are not used more often?
  • Do Ecaflips have abilities that are broken or overpowered? What makes them broken?
  • What do you think about the elemental diversity of the class? Are the different builds balanced?
*ecaflip does fairly well in pvm when someone forgets their role, they also do good damage, pvp theyre good as damage dealers but clover messes up alot of plays.
*rough tongue, its not worth it for opponent to gain ra the next turn, and to keep using it turn after turn is a no no for me.
*none overpowered, but feline spirit is broken now that emerald dofus has been introduced, might as well remove 3 ap
*good elemental diversity, most builds are balanced, maybe int and agi require higher damage output

i recently tried my hands on new ecaflip spells (click here) , it started out as a focus on gambling/betting options, with spells to help him achieve a higher % in winning, the second set were spells associated with acrobatic nature of a cat, and the third the learning/playful nature of the cat(though i am debating with myself if it should be the caster or the target to gain buff), and the rest were associated with felines or former spells.

il lay out 4 gambling spells here

Gambit: the ecaflip sacrifices his health to entice his enemies to exchange blows
-25% health(1 turn)
x1.3 final damage(in 1 turn)
2 ap cost
-if its 0 its not really a buff

Bet: shares damage with the target and heals the one who survives, lasts for 2 turns
shares damage with target, target shares damage with caster
if one dies, the other heals 33% of his health
can be cast to both allied/enemy team. cannot be cast on summons
2 ap cost
5 turn cooldown

Rekop/Poker: inflicts erosion and shares damages to all players who target this character
inflicts "Pot" state to target(1 turn)
inflicts "Raise" to caster, characters who interact with "Pot" character
33% erosion on "Pot" target
shares all cumulative damage received to all players who interacts with this character the next turn, the one who dealt the most damage is untouched, damage shared cannot be healed back.
2 ap
5 turn cooldown

All in : The Ecaflip uses their remaining AP/MP to lay a card on the target. The more AP/MP are used, the greater the chance of removing AP/MP from the target
Per spell AP : 1 earth/fire/water/earth per each ap
Per spell MP: 1 earth/fire/water/earth per each mp
5 turn cooldown

though as a gambler, these could be still used strategically or tactically.
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