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The Future of Healing

By Electricotter - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - September 26, 2012, 03:15:29

Healing is a core element of Dofus which has seen little to no changes in many years.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss certain fundamental aspects of healing along with certain elements of the game which impact healing.

Before we get too deeply into it, here are some current facts about healing:

  • 1 point of Intelligence increases Healing by 1%, similar to how stats effect damage.
  • +Heals work like +Damage, only for healing as opposed to hurting.
  • Weapon skills increase the healing effects of healing weapons.
  • Critical Hit bonuses do not effect the healing of a healing weapon.
Now that that is taken care of...on with the thread!

Fistly, let us start with the Intelligence build. At one point in time all shielding and healing was based on your or your targets Intelligence.
This was later changed to open up potential diversity in the Feca class. Other classes were effected by these changes, but the Feca received the most benefit.
Shielding, which up until that point was based on Intel, was now level based, meaning that Strength and Chance were viable options worth exploring.
We now see the Eniripsa alone in this position she once shared with the Feca.

There are now more classes with direct access to healing, so this is no longer a topic which applies to the Eniripsa alone.

Please take the time to consider this post and weigh in on any healing spell or even the mechanic/related mechanics themselves.
  • Healing is based on Intelligence

The Sacrier has had a Vitality based heal in its arsenal for some time, however it remains widely unused by many.
With the introduction of the Foggernaut however we have seen this Vitality based healing resurface and with quite the warm welcome.
First Aid is still based on Intelligence, which serves to bolster the Intelligence build in terms of support. Lifesaver however, has a Vitality based healing which any Fogger build can take advantage of.
This is essential as your turrets share your statistics, so without this feature the Intel Fogger would be the only valid option as a healer.
It can also be said that the Lifesaver could just have its own Int stat and that would be that, however Vit based healing offers consistent returns and strength over all levels.

What are the pro's and con's of Intelligence based heals?
What are the pro's and con's of Vitality based, percentile, healing?
What is your opinion on level based healing?
  • Healing and Erosion

How has erosion affected the healing mechanic?

Erosion was introduced as a counterbalance to extensive support. Whether it be through heals or shields fights could potentially never end.
Erosion was a method of curtailing this perpetual combat, but where does this leave the support character?
At what point is there too much support?

Has this push with erosion lead to support, namely healing, builds being left behind?

Currently there is a benefit to these blitz tactics, after all Erosion was designed to make fights quicker, but where does this leave the healer who usually has to sacrifice damage for support?
Is the sacrifice of damage for healing still something that players are willing to do?
How can we make healing more balanced overall?
By this I don't mean across the board alone, but within each specific class.
Is it fair for a class to cripple their damage in order to offer above average support?
Are there other methods with which this can be handled?
That is to say, for example, using AP expenditure alone instead of defining ones build through Stats.
Intelligence, for example, is overall the 'support build'.
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Electricotter|2012-09-26 03:15:29

What are the pro's and con's of Intelligence based heals?--Pros: This prevents the chance and agility enis being too powerful, while giving intel a reason. Also allows the healing of low hp individuals, such as (but not limited to) summons, lower leveled players, and obstacles. AoE heals based on hp (revit) would heal some monsters WAY more than players, which would result in what I expect to see as many problems. Also intelligence has always been designed to cater around the fact that it heals (intel equips giving +heals for example) and has had many changes to compensate so that it would not be overpowered as an element (Stormcloud staff, Forbidden word being prime examples)--Cons: Leaves very little versatility in the character's build, and with only wanting to use +heals equips, even less. Blocks the option of being anything BUT intel, and heals less (%) on higher hp characters (Masq, Sac, pure vit Osa) than lower, non hp characters.
What are the pro's and con's of Vitality based, percentile, healing?--It's unique. It allows for scaling across the board, but the current spell that is vitality based is 1 per target, and makes it so that it can't be used to "save" someone. It is also arguably overpowered on the higher hp characters, because of how mugh higher it heals.
What is your opinion on level based healing?-- It's perfectly fine.. Higher levels heal higher anyways. However, a lv 15x doesn't heal much less than an endgame character, which is rather frustrating. Damage doesn't necessarily increase a whole lot from 15x-200 and neither does healing. Mostly vitality, resists, ap, mp, weapon power, and wisdom are just increased.
  • Healing and Erosion

How has erosion affected the healing mechanic?

Erosion was introduced as a counterbalance to extensive support. Whether it be through heals or shields fights could potentially never end.
Erosion was a method of curtailing this perpetual combat, but where does this leave the support character?-- Erosion isn't necessarily the problem here. The 10% erosion base was perfectly fine, the issue is when spells ADD erosion, leaving someone with 100% permanent damage. That 100% makes healing impossible, and is frankly very overpowered.
At what point is there too much support?
--Easy. When you can have a situation that neither team can kill the other because support 100% nullifys the opponet's offense. If everyone is immortal, the fight is pointless.
Has this push with erosion lead to support, namely healing, builds being left behind?Healing? --Might as well kill them before you get that erosion stacked up. Then there's no reason to heal

Currently there is a benefit to these blitz tactics, after all Erosion was designed to make fights quicker, but where does this leave the healer who usually has to sacrifice damage for support?--Spamming a weapon.
Is the sacrifice of damage for healing still something that players are willing to do?Somewhat. If erosion wasn't so predominant, yes. Also if weapons that healed benifit from critical hits, it would also be better.......... -.- I hate when you are PENALIZED for critical hitting! (Also the case for Heads of Tails...)
How can we make healing more balanced overall? --Overhaul enis, give them more attacks, make all elements balanced with different purposes, give them different kinds of heals, and base heals on level. Also have %heals as a stat kind of like %trap (%trap is ONLY sram... but LOTS of classes heals. WTF?!)-Buff up the Intel spells on foggersMake Bribe heal based on a %hp (like 10-20% on opponents and 40-50% on allys?)- and the complicated part: Ecas. Heals being based on level would MAJORLY mess with ecas, as intel and str ecas are almost completly different classes. It could be possible to keep their heals based on intelligence. I see nothing wrong with that, just keep the classes unique.
By this I don't mean across the board alone, but within each specific class.--Oops. I already answered.
Is it fair for a class to cripple their damage in order to offer above average support?--Na, All classes should do the same damage, and support classes should have the added benifit of being able to support at no cost... *end sarcasm*
Are there other methods with which this can be handled? --With the way the game has been looking. Not in particular.
That is to say, for example, using AP expenditure alone instead of defining ones build through Stats. --What? Basically the more you spend the more you get?
Intelligence, for example, is overall the 'support build'.--I believe strength should be raw damage, and no support. The elemental builds should offer different means of support (in my opinion)
Little sleep, long day, Hope what I said makes sense. and it un bolded it -.-
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What are the pro's and con's of Intelligence based heals?
The cons are that other builds can't heal as much as intell can. ( I don't really see any pros yet ).

What are the pro's and con's of Vitality based, percentile, healing?
The pros of this are that any build can heal as much without needing to have + heals trophies or a lot of intell. The cons are that this can heal a hell lot on a sacrier that has 6k hp so it can be called OP at that stage.

What is your opinion on level based healing?
I really wouldn't mind this because this would make all builds heal the same giving the eni a chance to go another build such as chance or agility.
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The problem with level based healing is that it does not scale well, at all, at the lower levels. It is fully possibly to reach 500+ intel by level 60 or so, granting +500% to the healing. But if you introduce the level-scaling, that eni suddenly loses over half of their boost. Now their healing is suffering unless they use +heal gear to compensate.

Personally I'd rather see a system similar to what the feca armors previously used: 1/2 of the boosts came from the modifying stat (intel) and the remaining 1/2 of the boosts came from the secondary stat, which in this case is the eni's (or other class's) level. So using the same eni as an example, they gain +250% healing from their intel stat, and a further 150% from their level for a total of 400%. Yes this can be seen as a nerf of sorts at the lower levels, but it does nothing to affect heals by much at high levels.

Using a typical endgame eni to illustrate this, they can reach well over 900 intel at 199 (and even earlier). This means they gain 450+% from their intel, and another 500% (rounding up for simplicity) from their level, giving a total healing boost of over 950%.

The major benefit of this is that intelligence builds remain the primary build, as I have zero doubt that if it was fully level-based healing, you would not find an intel eni within the month. I know mine would be going to agi/cha within the day. Enis are probably the only class within the whole game that would suffer from an ambiguous primary build with this change.

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Digitized|2012-09-26 12:42:31
Enis are probably the only class within the whole game that would suffer from an ambiguous primary build with this change.
What about the Eca?

Vit or level based healing would seriously impact Heads or Tails as well as All or Nothing.

I feel that not every heal spell would have to undergo a change in how heals worked.
Some being Int based, some Vit based, maybe even some level based.

Also...why can't healing be affected by say, Chance?

This would go back to dual functionality.
A Water attack which would heal allies and hurt enemies could simply use Chance for the damage as well as the Healing component.

This wouldn't work as well for Agility, which already offers a lot in terms of the stat, or Strength which has the highest damage potential, but Int and Chance seems fine to me.
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Electricotter|2012-09-26 15:00:42
Digitized|2012-09-26 12:42:31
Enis are probably the only class within the whole game that would suffer from an ambiguous primary build with this change.
What about the Eca?

Vit or level based healing would seriously impact Heads or Tails as well as All or Nothing.

I feel that not every heal spell would have to undergo a change in how heals worked.
Some being Int based, some Vit based, maybe even some level based.

Also...why can't healing be affected by say, Chance?

This would go back to dual functionality.
A Water attack which would heal allies and hurt enemies could simply use Chance for the damage as well as the Healing component.

This wouldn't work as well for Agility, which already offers a lot in terms of the stat, or Strength which has the highest damage potential, but Int and Chance seems fine to me.
If it were affected by chance then people would scroll chance/int and only get chance/int sets for their eni, which aren't all that rare. And the last thing Eniripsas need is a buff to their healing, they just need to be more interesting, as currently, most of their spells do exactly the same thing in a slightly different way.

Though I see no reason why it can't be affected by the dominant stat, other than making the game detect which is the dominant stat.
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Heals based off of level of the healer:

This seems nice, and could be well balanced, however, it gives no incentive for an eni to have a nice set, and no way for one eni to be better than other. This will strongly impact those enis which have put millions of kamas into building high int and +heals sets, because now those factors wouldn't have any effect, and they would be just a strong as any other eni their level with the same set. This problem applies to some of the other proposed changes to how healing works.

Heals based off of percentage of HP of the recipient:

The main problem I see with this is that characters with really high HP will benefit more. Additionally with the way erosion works a strongly eroded character will receive worse and worse heals. This would be a terrible solution.

Heals based off of whatever the highest stat is:

The seems slightly cool and would certainly make other builds more possible. I would probably still keep my eni int though, because int can be buffed using enu greed, which on a crit gives 200 more int.

And the last thing Eniripsas need is a buff to their healing, they just need to be more interesting, as currently, most of their spells do exactly the same thing in a slightly different way.

I agree. I feel the healing spells should be more unified. The problem is that there are so many different approaches. Some enis really like to use +heals with revitalizing word and word of regeneration, while other enis focus on lots of int with Word of Sacrifice, etc.

Any change to heals will have to take into account these two different approaches to increasing healing.

The one spell that I think all enis will agree can be eliminated is Curative Word, and instead Word of Sacrifice and/or healing word should be able to heal self.
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So far there is a lot of talk about Eni's, but what about the Chance Osa for example?

They have access to 1 attack spell. Intel is already more favorable for the Osa in terms of offense, so what is wrong with their heals being Chance based?

Also look at the typical Enu with Pandora's Box.
Couldn't this give a long duration Vitality buff or be healing based off of Chance?
Could it be a % heal?

Furthermore, wouldn't HoT be more interesting if it healed enemies based off of current Vit (making their damage with HoT increase as they are Eroded)
and it could heal allies based off of their starting Vit?

Now this example is a little tricky, as it would make the Strength Eca a better healer, which isn't needed, but it is simply to depict the different methods with which things can be done.

Usually consistency of mechanics is what the Devs strive for however, the Fogger and Sacrier are exceptions to the Eniripsa model of healing.

This is why I mention balancing healing on a class by class basis.

Rather than a blanket change, what would work best for each individual class?

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Convoluted approaches should be looked upon with extreme caution simply because they're going to be such a problem to easily explain to players. IE the HoT suggestion. Granted, the primary build for ecas could be argued to be strength, not intel, on top of the multiple attack spells offered in each element. An eni has ONE attack spell in each element, which makes the problem much more profound.

As for kakisuki's point, I only agree with it as far as healing allies. An eni's self-healing ability is pretty pathetic at the best of times, and beyond pitiful at the worse. However, that is for a different topic.
Beyond that, a level based change is a nerf to a class that has only healing as a strong tactic. A vit-based approach is just as likely to be a nerf for the same reasons as a level-based one. So far as I can tell, the 50% stat, 50% level approach is the one that is the easiest to go with simply because it's easy to balance, and does not provide an overall nerf on the scale many people would hate. Yes it'd mean a slightly reduce effectiveness for a primary build, but that's a small price to pay.

Plus the 50/50 approach makes alternate builds more widely available, as I could easily take an eni agi/cha for the damage component, and still be able to have the ability to heal, despite at half of the effectiveness.

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Electricotter|2012-09-26 16:57:23
So far there is a lot of talk about Eni's, but what about the Chance Osa for example?

They have access to 1 attack spell. Intel is already more favorable for the Osa in terms of offense, so what is wrong with their heals being Chance based?

Also look at the typical Enu with Pandora's Box.
Couldn't this give a long duration Vitality buff or be healing based off of Chance?
Could it be a % heal?

Furthermore, wouldn't HoT be more interesting if it healed enemies based off of current Vit (making their damage with HoT increase as they are Eroded)
and it could heal allies based off of their starting Vit?

Now this example is a little tricky, as it would make the Strength Eca a better healer, which isn't needed, but it is simply to depict the different methods with which things can be done.

Usually consistency of mechanics is what the Devs strive for however, the Fogger and Sacrier are exceptions to the Eniripsa model of healing.

This is why I mention balancing healing on a class by class basis.

Rather than a blanket change, what would work best for each individual class?
I personally think that there's nothing wrong with chance becoming an option for healing as currently, chance is the only stat which has no actual application in combat other than prospecting.. which gives no actual bonus during the fight itself.

Strength doubles with neutral damage and gives pods

Intelligence increases heals

Agility increases lock and dodge.

The only issue with making it so that chance can heal is stopping people from being able to get extra bonuses to their healing spells with their points in chance AND intelligence. It is a lot easier for people to get 700 chance/700 intelligence than it is for them to get 1400 intelligence, and that bonus really really shouldn't be possible to classes who already heal efficiently.
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Also look at the typical Enu with Pandora's Box. Couldn't this give a long duration Vitality buff or be healing based off of Chance? Could it be a % heal?

Personally I would rather my enu's pandora box be a straight crit buff. I don't like the healing aspect because it makes my enu unreliable as far as self buffing crits, and since I haven't been able to drop a turquoise dofus for him he needs crits more than the weak pandora box heal.

Of course if the heal was based off of chance it would certainly be a stronger heal, but in my opinion enus don't need healing abilities, they need stronger attacks and buffs.
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As someone who has not played an eni, I'm not qualified to fully answer this question, but it does seem that if heals were chance related, you would see many vampiric word builds.

As Someone with a 151 cha/int foggernaut, I'm fine with the healing as it is. It really isn't Overpowered for my lv, because I dont get matched up with 6k vit sacriers, though I see how this might cause some complaints from enemies if I did PvP.

"Don't fix what isn't broken"
I'm not sure healing is a broken system

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Nerd-Tease|2012-09-28 18:23:23
As someone who has not played an eni, I'm not qualified to fully answer this question, but it does seem that if heals were chance related, you would see many vampiric word builds.

As Someone with a 151 cha/int foggernaut, I'm fine with the healing as it is. It really isn't Overpowered for my lv, because I dont get matched up with 6k vit sacriers, though I see how this might cause some complaints from enemies if I did PvP.

"Don't fix what isn't broken"
I'm not sure healing is a broken system
I would just like to note that this thread isn't indicative of a change to healing.

More so this thread is to discuss a mechanic of the game which impacts many, if not all, classes.

I would also like to note that I feel each heal spell, not healing in entirety, should have its own source.

As a Fogger, you know that your Lifesaver has a different healing mechanic from Healing Word...from First Aid even.

So the consistency of the mechanic isn't really necessary, we have 2 specific precedents for this.

There is nothing wrong with seeing more Vampiric Eniripsas. In fact this is kind of the point.

Say Word of Sacrifice was based on Chance and Healing/Curative Word could be combined and based on Intel.
Regenerating and Revitalizing Word could be based on level.
Then Word of Altruism could be a Vit based heal.
(Set aside the Altruistic State for the time being...this is simply to convey a point not directly related to the balance of this spell, or the former ones, at all.)

This would open up variety for Eni builds.

Also see the example I posted above about the Osa having Animal Healing effected by Chance.
(As the Intel Osa already gets the majority of offensive options.)

This could apply to other classes as well.
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Electricotter|2012-09-28 23:29:17
Nerd-Tease|2012-09-28 18:23:23
As someone who has not played an eni, I'm not qualified to fully answer this question, but it does seem that if heals were chance related, you would see many vampiric word builds.

As Someone with a 151 cha/int foggernaut, I'm fine with the healing as it is. It really isn't Overpowered for my lv, because I dont get matched up with 6k vit sacriers, though I see how this might cause some complaints from enemies if I did PvP.

"Don't fix what isn't broken"
I'm not sure healing is a broken system
I would just like to note that this thread isn't indicative of a change to healing.

More so this thread is to discuss a mechanic of the game which impacts many, if not all, classes.

I would also like to note that I feel each heal spell, not healing in entirety, should have its own source.

As a Fogger, you know that your Lifesaver has a different healing mechanic from Healing Word...from First Aid even.

So the consistency of the mechanic isn't really necessary, we have 2 specific precedents for this.

There is nothing wrong with seeing more Vampiric Eniripsas. In fact this is kind of the point.

Say Word of Sacrifice was based on Chance and Healing/Curative Word could be combined and based on Intel.
Regenerating and Revitalizing Word could be based on level.
Then Word of Altruism could be a Vit based heal.
(Set aside the Altruistic State for the time being...this is simply to convey a point not directly related to the balance of this spell, or the former ones, at all.)

This would open up variety for Eni builds.

Also see the example I posted above about the Osa having Animal Healing effected by Chance.
(As the Intel Osa already gets the majority of offensive options.)

This could apply to other classes as well.
Seems I missed part of the original intent of this thread. If this is changed for some spells, it should say (kindof like lifesaver) in the spell description what the heals are based on.
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Lvl Effect Crit AP Ra Critical Casts per Cd Caster
level
Hit Fail Tgt Trn
1 restored HP
: 25~30
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 31~46
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1 1/50 1/100 2 - - 48
2 restored HP
: 26~31
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 32~37
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1-2 1/50 1/100 2 - - 48
3 restored HP
: 27~32
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 33~38
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1-3 1/50 1/100 2 - - 48
4 restored HP
: 28~33
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 34~39
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1-4 1/50 1/100 2 - - 48
5 restored HP
: 29~34
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 35~40
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1-5 1/50 1/100 2 - - 48
6 restored HP
: 38~43
Caster: +10% Erosion (1 turn)
restored HP
: 45~50
Caster: +5% Erosion (1 turn)
4 1-6 1/50 1/100 2 - - 148

Just as an example.

In game it would be just as easy.
Look at your resists, these are represented by:
Earth
Fire
Air
Water

So you coulkd easily write this

HP Restored: 38-43
HP Restored: 38-43
HP Restored: 38-43 (Water)
HP Restored (Chance): 38-43

 
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I'd be ok with a chance healing spell as long as it didn't replace Word of Sacrifice. That is the main int healing spell I use, and I'm afraid a combined Healing Word / Curative Word wouldn't be nearly as strong as intelligence based Word of Sacrifice is.

Changing the strongest healing spell of 100% intelligence healing based enis to a spell based off of chance would be a major blow.

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Electricotter|2012-09-28 23:29:17
(Set aside the Altruistic State for the time being...this is simply to convey a point not directly related to the balance of this spell, or the former ones, at all.)

I'm just using the names of existing spells.
There is no specific spell intended for any suggestion (by me) contained in this thread.
Using preexisting spells simply helps to make my point.

I am reusing the same spells simply for consistency and easy reference.

The Enisipsa class/healing spells were simply chosen due to sheer quantity of healing spells.
This allows me to mention each type of healing, and the diversity available, within one class.
(Similar to how the Fogger has 2 different healing mechanics currently.)

The Eniripsa being the master of healing should have the most diverse methods of healing, yes?
Also each build should have access to healing as well.

Say Int was still intended as the main build, assuming such diverse methods were implemented, the off element should offer a higher base heal, as WoS does, due to poor caps
and to allow the Int build situational Chance heals.

For example, Word of Altruism might still impose the Altruistic State, but perhaps it only effects Int based healing.
In this way an Int/Chance hybrid could still heal with WoS. (WoS also having cast restrictions.)

This suggestion is merely to show how different mechanics can be used within already defined and familiar parameters.

However class specific/(healing)spell specific changes are welcome topics of discussion in this thread...in terms of overall mechanics at least.
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Electricotter|2012-09-28 23:29:17

There is nothing wrong with seeing more Vampiric Eniripsas. In fact this is kind of the point.

Hence my suggestion for the 50% intel boost and 50% level boost. By the time many enis would choose to hybridize into chance or agi, they'll be at a level high enough that they can fully devote their gear to that hybridized element and forgo intel entirely beyond base points in exchange for increasing their damage output. Their healing capacity will suffer as is necessary, but it will not suffer unnecessary due to the lack, or near lack, of intelligence boosting the healing.

The introduction of non-intel based heals is one of those things that I feel are so out of place it's foolish to attempt. I understand what you're trying to do, but I just think it's the entirely wrong direction to do so.
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I believe a greater problem than just changing intel to something else for heals exists.
While that would be one solution, I personally prefer the 50% level 50% stats, and THEN considering changing elements.

However, Let us consider for a moment the gear avaliable to characters. At a quick glance, +heals gear is almost exclusive to intel equipment. There are a few that are not, but predominantly, Its intel. If you was to change it to say, Agility, Then the ENi would have an excess of crits (agil gear trademark) but very little in the way of +heals.

That was always one reason why i never made a pure agil Eni. Trohpies make up for some loss, But i'd still be loosing out on ~40 +heals, dropping my healing considerably.

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Hinairusu|2012-09-29 13:01:04
I believe a greater problem than just changing intel to something else for heals exists.
While that would be one solution, I personally prefer the 50% level 50% stats, and THEN considering changing elements.

However, Let us consider for a moment the gear avaliable to characters. At a quick glance, +heals gear is almost exclusive to intel equipment. There are a few that are not, but predominantly, Its intel. If you was to change it to say, Agility, Then the ENi would have an excess of crits (agil gear trademark) but very little in the way of +heals.

That was always one reason why i never made a pure agil Eni. Trohpies make up for some loss, But i'd still be loosing out on ~40 +heals, dropping my healing considerably.
This is exactly why I say a spell by spell/class by class modification would be best.

Also, Agility does more than enough as it is.
Crits, Dodge, Lock, and Air damage.
Nothing further is needed for Agility.

The 50/50 suggestion is a good one for certain, however I feel there are some cases when 100% Level based would be best.
Just as there are some spells which are fine working off of the targets Vitality or the casters Vitality.

There are other spells which should remain 100% based off of your stats alone.
Take Cawwot for example.
Not all classes should have access to the healing this spell can provide.

To tackle the concept of your pure Agility Eniripsa, having say Regenerating Word and Revitalizing word completely level based will give you equivocal heals to an Int Eni (minus the lack of heals for gear).
Whereas Healing Word could utilize the 50/50 concept to at least grant moderate healing.

Gear is also a very important factor in DOFUS.
In fact I would personally like to see at least 1 100+ set, 150+ set, 180+ set, and 190-200 set every update.

Gear is a very large aspect of this game...which might even be worthy of its own thread.
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