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Emerald Dofus Buff - Topic of the Month (October)

By vagabaka - SUBSCRIBER - October 11, 2012, 04:43:48

This month's topic comes from Giga-Biga-Bowser:

Giga-Biga-Bowser|2012-09-11 06:59:44
Emerald Dofus improvement. Again. A related topic. Third time's the charm, right?

The Emerald Dofus' worth in the eyes of the some members of the community has been decreasing for a long time: first came the overall increase in base HP for all characters (1.27, April 2009), but there were still enough empty Dofus slots to make it appealing enough... until the day trophies were introduced into the game (2.4.0, September 2011) and allowed for extra +vit to be within the grasp of all, without relying on luck.

How strange for an original Dofus to be less appealing than a fake one, such as the Cawwot Dofus.. isn't that right, Giga-Biga-Bowser? wink

There are many varying opinions and suggestions surrounding the discussion of this egg. In fact, it seems Ankama is very well aware of the current state of affairs, to the point that Sylfaen has made the following comment in the past:
(...)I recall mentioning it before here and/or on the OF around the time that the trophies were released, but it is likely that certain Dofus, such as the Emerald one, will be reviewed. But this won't be happening before its obtention method is changed, or even at the same time. Considering the fact that we do not find its obtention method appealing (as oppose to that of trophies, which is meritorious), we see no point in rebalancing it for now.

While we are unaware of the possible obtaining methods the developers might be pondering on (other than the fact that it will be quest-based) nor when this could possibly be implemented, we still look forward to your contributions on how the Emerald Dofus could be improved. As always, we would like to bring up a few points to help kick start the conversation:
  • What improvement could be implemented to ensure that this Dofus is interesting across all levels?
  • How do you feel about the link between the difficulty level of obtaining this Dofus and its bonus?

p.s. This post was drafted by Zenith member Chay, but she was unable to post it due to a computer failure. We apologize about the lateness of the thread.
 
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  • What improvement could be implemented to ensure that this Dofus is interesting across all levels?
Multiply the minimum and maximum rolls by 2 (or +101 to 200 hp), and double the bonuses boosted by currently existing Emeralds (a current +70 Emerald would grant +140 after update).

  • How do you feel about the link between the difficulty level of obtaining this Dofus and its bonus?
It's not a Vulbis, the drop rate is relatively fair. Perhaps it should eventually be a quest reward (like Ochre or Dolmanax), but I agree with the developers: low priority for this to be implemented.
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Will this even make the slightest bit of difference? Come on, we all know this is not on the agenda anytime soon. It won't get changed in the next few years.

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What improvement could be implemented to ensure that this Dofus is interesting across all levels?
Possibly make it give 151-250 hp since it isn't a 1% drop and Dark Vlad has a respawn time if I'm right.
How do you feel about the link between the difficulty level of obtaining this Dofus and its bonus?
The drop is Ok because all dofuses aren't made to be easy to get only problem is the current Hp which makes it useless. I've seen people on my server sell emerald dofuses for 600kk for a +50 hp one due to the trophies being better.
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With the fact you gain 5hp per level now instead of the 10 past lvl 100... I just think you need to add a 1 in front of it. Fair enough, still sucky for higher levels but very nice for lower.

In all honestly though, vitality was a terrible idea for a dofus stat from the start.

2bytwo|2012-10-11 08:29:33
What improvement could be implemented to ensure that this Dofus is interesting across all levels?
Possibly make it give 151-250 hp since it isn't a 1% drop and Dark Vlad has a respawn time if I'm right
don't know the exact fact but i used to farm dark vlad and spam it a lot till i finally dropped an emerald and its respawn was always between 8-12 hours.
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Ah yes, this...

Two basic ideas have already come up, each with their own specific pros and cons:

Increasing the Vitality base of the Emerald Dofus (The number has always been variable):
[blockquote]Pro: Vitality Boost balanced across level.
Con: Sacriers benefit more,[/blockquote]
And changing the stat given to a %vitality boost. (Also variable):
[blockquote]Pro: Balanced across all classes. Easier to remodel existing Emerald Dofus.
Con: Low level players with Emerald Dofus.[/blockquote] 

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In my opinion the already existing emeralds should not be changed. It's not really fair when you get an emerald for 600 kk or drop it easily from cheap dv souls since it's not so hot anymore after trophies came out and then getting a nice egg just because someone thought it should be changed. If you boost it, make a different way to get it and dont change the already existing ones (unless its a change to 101-200 vit, then its fine too double the stats, but if you give it some nicer stats that wouldnt be fair)
As we all know the economy in dofus is not really good, but lets leave the reasons for now (there could be whole another topic for that).
How about making a quest somewhere in the labirinth to bring a lot of some useless resources like 5000 of sesame seeds, piwi feathers etc. for someone that doesnt want to be lost and got to put something on the ground to be able to follow the path later on on the way back. It could be enormous amounts of some resources that we all throw away (but not one, like 5000 of this 5000 of that etc.). It could be brought in steps as we may not have so many pods.

When it comes to stats I would give it more vit and maybe some pods at the end so even if that dofus is not as appealing as vulbis, ochre or almanax it could still be valuable to obtain just to wear as you lvl up your professions.

That could also make the game more interesting again as we would see more percs on the fields again and people willing to attack it - and here we go - we have fun in dofus again.

Let me know what you think about the ideas.

Blinkeh

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Score : 960
CunningFiend|2012-10-11 05:42:40
  • What improvement could be implemented to ensure that this Dofus is interesting across all levels?
Multiply the minimum and maximum rolls by 2 (or +101 to 200 hp), and double the bonuses boosted by currently existing Emeralds (a current +70 Emerald would grant +140 after update).
I'd have it give a level-based vitality bonus to be truthful. Granted, something as strong as a 5-10/level bonus is extremely powerful (8k vit sacriers? no), but along the lines of 2-3 vitality per character level. This would supplement the character's already present +5 hp/level gain, and made the dofus worth using at endgame where 300-450 (for a 150 char) is actually extremely valuable as it allows a wider range of gear choices. For example, with this bonus, a str/cha character might choose to actually use the guten tak's ring for it's pretty good stats even though it lacks vitality (its only drawback).

And you have it backwards giga. A straight vitality boost is balanced across the majority of levels with the downside of being imbalanced at low levels (see the "nerf jump pl0x" thread in suggestions for what I mean) and sacriers not benefiting as much. A 200 vit increase is up to a 10% increase for some classes nearing endgame, while it's potentially a 5% or less boost for sacriers in the same tier. A %vitality boost is extremely imbalanced for sacriers for the same reason +vit is less effective for them. If You're considering base vitality before gear boosts, sacriers get a bigger boost point for point out of is because they have the near entirety of their character points in vitality. That's nearly 2k health before you consider the extra 1k health they'd get for the level boost. Three thousand health vs the lowly one thousand most other characters would have.

Hence a level-based version looking to me like it's the most balanced way to go as it's independent class and build (just like reflects and reduction now).
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@Digitized

Mhh... I don't see how an level based Vitality boost is more fair for all classes compared to a % vit boost. Actually, I think a %-Vit bonus is indeed more balanced (as giga said).

But I am not sure..

Your argument was, that with a %-boost, Sacrier would get their base Vitality boosted (where all their character points are) as well as stats from gear, thus giving them much more bang for the buck.

But.. My reasoning: Thats the point! Sacrier have their class concept on "many HP and few other stuff", so they need this bonus to stay as effective. Giving them "only" a constant +Vit (which is 2* +HP) is actually lowering their gain out of the Dofus.

Isn't it the case that two HP doesn't matter as much to a Sacriers as one HP does to other classes (or else they would not need to pump *everything* into Vit).

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There is a lot of talk about simple things like just increasing the vitality on the dofus, so I figured I'd throw some totally different ideas out there for consideration:

  • What if the dofus bonus was a health regen, modified by level. So a level 200 character with a +100 emerald dofus will regen 100 HP per turn. A level 100 with a perfect +100 emerald dofus will regen 50 per turn. A level 100 with a +50 emerald dofus will regen 25 per turn, etc. This accomplishes much the same purpose as the other suggestions in that it gives players more HP, but I think it would be more tactical and interesting than a boring straight HP bonus, which can already be obtained from the survivor trophies.
  • Another potential modification to the emerald dofus would be to multiply its stats by three and have it give a shield bonus, like a masquerader does. So if you have a +300 emerald dofus then you start the fight with +300 shield points on top of your HP points. The difference here is that shields can not be rehealed like a plain HP bonus can, so that might be interesting.
 
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Mishna|2012-10-11 21:26:13
  • Another potential modification to the emerald dofus would be to multiply its stats by three and have it give a shield bonus, like a masquerader does. So if you have a +300 emerald dofus then you start the fight with +300 shield points on top of your HP points. The difference here is that shields can not be rehealed like a plain HP bonus can, so that might be interesting.
+1 Like this idea.
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Mishna|2012-10-11 21:26:13
There is a lot of talk about simple things like just increasing the vitality on the dofus, so I figured I'd throw some totally different ideas out there for consideration:

  • What if the dofus bonus was a health regen, modified by level. So a level 200 character with a +100 emerald dofus will regen 100 HP per turn. A level 100 with a perfect +100 emerald dofus will regen 50 per turn. A level 100 with a +50 emerald dofus will regen 25 per turn, etc. This accomplishes much the same purpose as the other suggestions in that it gives players more HP, but I think it would be more tactical and interesting than a boring straight HP bonus, which can already be obtained from the survivor trophies.
  • Another potential modification to the emerald dofus would be to multiply its stats by three and have it give a shield bonus, like a masquerader does. So if you have a +300 emerald dofus then you start the fight with +300 shield points on top of your HP points. The difference here is that shields can not be rehealed like a plain HP bonus can, so that might be interesting.

the first idea is rather ridiculously over the top and would make characters like osa,sacs and fecas whom have built their setup around resistances and survivability near immortal, your second suggestion is sound.
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magulsreturn|2012-10-12 14:15:53
Mishna|2012-10-11 21:26:13
There is a lot of talk about simple things like just increasing the vitality on the dofus, so I figured I'd throw some totally different ideas out there for consideration:

  • What if the dofus bonus was a health regen, modified by level. So a level 200 character with a +100 emerald dofus will regen 100 HP per turn. A level 100 with a perfect +100 emerald dofus will regen 50 per turn. A level 100 with a +50 emerald dofus will regen 25 per turn, etc. This accomplishes much the same purpose as the other suggestions in that it gives players more HP, but I think it would be more tactical and interesting than a boring straight HP bonus, which can already be obtained from the survivor trophies.
  • Another potential modification to the emerald dofus would be to multiply its stats by three and have it give a shield bonus, like a masquerader does. So if you have a +300 emerald dofus then you start the fight with +300 shield points on top of your HP points. The difference here is that shields can not be rehealed like a plain HP bonus can, so that might be interesting.

the first idea is rather ridiculously over the top and would make characters like osa,sacs and fecas whom have built their setup around resistances and survivability near immortal, your second suggestion is sound.
I think the first idea would be decent if the heal was reduced down to 25 health per turn. I mean after about 10 turns that's still 250 health.

Either way I like both of his suggestions, they just need balancing a bit.
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I think the first idea would be decent if the heal was reduced down to 25 health per turn. I mean after about 10 turns that's still 250 health. Either way I like both of his suggestions, they just need balancing a bit.

Thanks. smile

I deliberately aimed a bit high with the regen suggestion, and I agree that might be OP if you manage to drop a perfect emerald dofus. The chances are very minuscule to drop a perfect one, but it would still be seen as unfair if someone did manage to get lucky.

I think 25 health regen might be a bit too low at end game levels, though, because at endgame levels it is easy to do 1000 damage to a person just with spells in kolo, or even more than that with weapons. In PvM as well the frigost monsters can easily do 500-1000 damage to you per turn if you aren't well protected or very careful.

Overall I would see the health regen concept as more useful in PvM, in which fights tend to last many more turns. In PvP the fights are generally much faster unless you get a feca in there, and even with that erosion and other techniques are speeding up formerly long, drawn out fights.

The shield concept probably makes more sense in PvP, and could be useful because shields can't be stolen with health stealing weapons or spells, and the shield wouldn't make the battle long and drawn out because the shield can't be healed.
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Mishna|2012-10-14 18:47:53
I think the first idea would be decent if the heal was reduced down to 25 health per turn. I mean after about 10 turns that's still 250 health. Either way I like both of his suggestions, they just need balancing a bit.

Thanks. smile

I deliberately aimed a bit high with the regen suggestion, and I agree that might be OP if you manage to drop a perfect emerald dofus. The chances are very minuscule to drop a perfect one, but it would still be seen as unfair if someone did manage to get lucky.

I think 25 health regen might be a bit too low at end game levels, though, because at endgame levels it is easy to do 1000 damage to a person just with spells in kolo, or even more than that with weapons. In PvM as well the frigost monsters can easily do 500-1000 damage to you per turn if you aren't well protected or very careful.

Overall I would see the health regen concept as more useful in PvM, in which fights tend to last many more turns. In PvP the fights are generally much faster unless you get a feca in there, and even with that erosion and other techniques are speeding up formerly long, drawn out fights.

The shield concept probably makes more sense in PvP, and could be useful because shields can't be stolen with health stealing weapons or spells, and the shield wouldn't make the battle long and drawn out because the shield can't be healed.
Well the dofus could regen a certain amount per level.

~Aura
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Ugh, wow. Work 30 minutes on a post via iPhone only to have it nommed. (That's Apple for ya')

Anyhow, here's the abridged version of MY opinion on what should be done about the Emerald Dofus (and all Dofus' for that matter.)

First of all, I believe that putting a level minimum of anywhere from 50-100 would bring more balance from utilizing Dofus' in general. But that's just my opinion. Level 6 to equip them seems silly.

As for the Emerald, I say leave the HP bonus alone, and add a +HP Regen/Sec OUTSIDE of battle. It'd be really nice not to have 500 pods worth of bread eating up my inventory. Not to mention I spend probably anywhere from 500-800kk on bread a week. (I'm too lazy to make a baker, or have a profession for that matter. Go ahead, judge me.)

I unno. I just think getting a little more bang for my 7mk on my Emerald would be cool.

Just my two cents.

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binken|2012-10-16 01:13:54
Ugh, wow. Work 30 minutes on a post via iPhone only to have it nommed. (That's Apple for ya')

Anyhow, here's the abridged version of MY opinion on what should be done about the Emerald Dofus (and all Dofus' for that matter.)

First of all, I believe that putting a level minimum of anywhere from 50-100 would bring more balance from utilizing Dofus' in general. But that's just my opinion. Level 6 to equip them seems silly.

As for the Emerald, I say leave the HP bonus alone, and add a +HP Regen/Sec OUTSIDE of battle. It'd be really nice not to have 500 pods worth of bread eating up my inventory. Not to mention I spend probably anywhere from 500-800kk on bread a week. (I'm too lazy to make a baker, or have a profession for that matter. Go ahead, judge me.)

I unno. I just think getting a little more bang for my 7mk on my Emerald would be cool.

Just my two cents.
I think that one problem with this is that emerald dofuses aren't too rare. And bakers, butchers and fishmongers need a market. Currently the ones who make the most money are the ones who spend the most money on food. I could see a lot less people using bread if this were introduced, making it harder for people to make money from selling bread.
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Score : 960
kakisuka|2012-10-13 12:51:15
magulsreturn|2012-10-12 14:15:53
I think the first idea would be decent if the heal was reduced down to 25 health per turn. I mean after about 10 turns that's still 250 health.

Either way I like both of his suggestions, they just need balancing a bit.
+25 hp a turn is worthless in pvp AND pvm when it's a singular effect that is not accumulating. That's why regen word is a piss-pot of a spell unless it's leveled and being stacked several turns in a row.

A percentile function off your maximum health (this is ALWAYS determined by your health when the fight starts) would be more balanced than any flat-rate regeneration.

Emerald Dofus
Effect: Player casts "Invigorating Vitality" in fights.

When fights start, the players cast the "pre-fight" spell giving them an untouchable effect (like frigost bosses) that restores 5% of their maximum vitality each turn. The actual amount the effect would be restoring depends on the amount of health you had when you started the fight, so an iop stacking Vitality wont gain more health from it.

Regarding the foodstuff professions, which includes alchemist among them, all that needs to be done to restore their market is stop the hp restore of kolossium and allow those professions to craft special breads, meats, fish, and potions that provide battle-boosts, like the various shigekax you can get. If you want me to elaborate more on this, just let me know and I'll bring it to the professions' thread in Zenith.
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Digitized|2012-10-17 00:53:49
kakisuka|2012-10-13 12:51:15
magulsreturn|2012-10-12 14:15:53
I think the first idea would be decent if the heal was reduced down to 25 health per turn. I mean after about 10 turns that's still 250 health.

Either way I like both of his suggestions, they just need balancing a bit.
+25 hp a turn is worthless in pvp AND pvm when it's a singular effect that is not accumulating. That's why regen word is a piss-pot of a spell unless it's leveled and being stacked several turns in a row.

A percentile function off your maximum health (this is ALWAYS determined by your health when the fight starts) would be more balanced than any flat-rate regeneration.

Emerald Dofus
Effect: Player casts "Invigorating Vitality" in fights.

When fights start, the players cast the "pre-fight" spell giving them an untouchable effect (like frigost bosses) that restores 5% of their maximum vitality each turn. The actual amount the effect would be restoring depends on the amount of health you had when you started the fight, so an iop stacking Vitality wont gain more health from it.

Regarding the foodstuff professions, which includes alchemist among them, all that needs to be done to restore their market is stop the hp restore of kolossium and allow those professions to craft special breads, meats, fish, and potions that provide battle-boosts, like the various shigekax you can get. If you want me to elaborate more on this, just let me know and I'll bring it to the professions' thread in Zenith.
That 5% is way too high. With 4000 health, which isn't too hard to get at level 200, people are regaining 200 health per turn. Spend 3 turns not taking damage and that's a whole 600 damage that has been restored. On top of being invulnerable first turn? Would be way too powerful for a dofus.

Really... I've easily had PvP fights which have lasted about 30 or so turns. People with Emerald Dofuses would be way too powerful in both PvM and PvP if they're able to restore at least 100 health per turn. In the PvP fight that I stated it would give the player an additional 3000 health in total.

25 regen might be too low, 100 is definitely too high, 50 might be a healthy medium. Or at most it could be 1% of health per turn. And definitely no untouchable effect. I think that dofus bonuses should remain as bonuses which players can theoretically get without the dofus (for example, people can get extra health which fulfills the same role as the regen, but it sacrifices stats. However in no way can any item grant temporary invulnerability)
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Score : 960

You're intentionally, or unintentionally, misreading what I'm posting. Otherwise you'd realize that "untouchable" is regarding the regeneration effect only. Aka, it's putting the player into an unremoveable state.

Too high in what? Pvm? In pvm it's still not high enough. In pvp? Who cares, it's still too low. The number of times in pvp when regaining a simple 5% health per turn was absolutely useless to me has been pretty much every fight. When you've got 3 people capable of dealing on a individual basis more than 1k damage a turn, regaining 100-300 hp a turn is barely worth pocket change.

"But what about the defensive classes? They'll make it OP."

Bull. Erosion took care of that. Health recovery, let alone damage reduction, takes a backseat to inflicting the most damage you can before you die. Even if all of the damage you're doing gets healed to full every turn, it gets to a point where the person you're attacking simply does not have the health to withstand the attacks. A regeneration effect wont change that. So making it an incredibly poor effect just because it looks OP on paper is incredibly faulty.

Hell, if it was a paltry 1% a turn, I'd sooner turn that thing into trash fodder and wear a resistance trophy and a resist pet. The amount of damage I'd stop that way severely outweighs a meager 1% regen. A Dofus is not supposed to be something that you'll never consider because of how pathetic it is. It's supposed to be something you'll consider using because of how powerful they are. Would you use a turq if it only gave 1-2 crits? A vulbis if it gave mp loss/res? An ochre if it was ap loss/res? A crimson if it only gave 5% power? A cawwot if it only gave 5 wisdom? The answer to that, as well as an emerald dofus only giving 1%, is a resounding no.

Keep in mind that endgame characters are fully capable of dealing 600 damage with cheap spells like leek pie as well.

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