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Spell Point Scrolls - Topic of the Month (November)

By vagabaka - SUBSCRIBER - November 07, 2012, 23:40:50

In October's voting thread, discarder / Leyline proposed to talk about an alternative method to obtain spell point scrolls beside kolossium, and received the most votes (16):

discarder|2012-10-22 19:59:55
An alternative than Koloing for spell points. Be it dopples (ugh), resource grinding (lil better), or questing (ugh). Anything is better (for me) than hoping that I can win a fight everyday to get the tokens I need... I don't like PvP, I am hating it for what I must endure in it... please, an alternative. It's been 4 months.

For those who don't know what the fuss is about:


Players used to be able to obtain a spell point scroll through NPC exchange for 5 polished diamonds, and for a while, 100 strokens. By version 2.6, both methods were removed and now they are only obtained by exchanging 1000 kolossikens. The main complaints on this change have been:
  • Players who do not like PvP can no longer obtain spell point scrolls directly
  • Wait times, lost fights, and the high kolossiken price make spell scrolling a much slower and more expensive process now
  • On small servers spell scrolls have scarce supply due to low number of kolossium participants

Here is the latest we have heard from Ankama on the topic:

Incidentally, near the end of the same month, Ankama released an episode(French page) of "AFK" where the French community manager Sylfaen touched on this concern:
Question: Ever since spell point scrolls became a Kolossium reward, it has become very difficult (not to say impossible) for a player to level all his/her spells to 6. Are you considering changing it, by reducing the kolossoken price for example?

Sylfaen: This is going to be a lengthy answer since this topic is very popular on the forums and we have a very clear opinion on it.

First of all, we really don’t like the concept of being able to level all spells to 6 and we do not want to allow for it to be an easy task. Hence why the kolossoken price of spell scrolls is so high. As such, we have no intention to reduce it.

However, we have prepared two measures that will be implemented into the game with the 2.9 release, which should facilitate things for everybody:

1) Only one dopple fight will be needed to unlearn a spell. Which means players will be able to unlearn up to 15 spells per day.

2) Excess spell points can be exchanged. For example a character that is level 150 and has 160 spell points (11 more than he should have as a standard), he will be able to exchange those 11 spell points into kolossokens (1 spell points = 1000 kolossokens), which will allow him to recuperate invested spell point scrolls to transfer them onto another character, for example.

These two measures will allow for spell points to be transferred from one character to another, so instead of having to invest in spell scrolls for each and every character a player owns, players will only need to do it once and transfer them across according to one’s needs.

This will also allow for more spell point scrolls to be available, resulting in less demand and need, and those who need them will be able to acquire them at a much lower price. This also allows for when , as an example, a character has too many spell points invested – such as those that have all their spells leveled to 6 and, let’s remember that we have recently changed the Soul Capture spell (which now only has one level), who recuperated their invested spell points but have no use for them now – to be able to exchange or resell them, which will reinvigorate the spell scroll market.

These are changes that will make everyone’s life easier, but it is important to know that the long term objective is to reduce the importance of spell scrolls as well as the importance given to character’s being fully scrolled to lvl 6, which is something that doesn’t interest us as we want to present the players with solutions that allow them to create different gaming modes: they don’t have all spells leveled but, between fights, they can easily change the spells they want to use. This is something that will continue to evolve, but we think this is a good starting point.
(Translation by Chay)

While the Zenith will try our best to present our community's opinion on this issue to developers, we feel it is more effective to submit comments based on their recent statement. Therefore, please excuse us for somewhat deviating from the suggested topic.

And finally, your turn:

While Ankama seems unwilling to lower the cost of spell point scrolls, they plan to make it much easier to reset spells so players can frequently change their spell set to adapt for different fights. Is this compromise good enough for you?

The new spell point scroll acquisition method may have given older players who already scrolled spell points a large advantage. Will the ability to change excess spell points back to scrolls help offset this?

Will these changes help the spell point situation in small servers with low kolossium participation? What additional suggestions do you have to specifically solve that problem?

As always, we look forward to hearing your opinions!
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Reactions 225
Score : 1431

I appreciate the idea to be able to fast-switch spells.

But I think this is totally useless without the possiblitity to fast-switch your characteristic point distribution as well. But as I understand, it is not easily possible to have this except if you scrolled all stats to 101 before investing any points (which is out of reach for many players).

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Score : 6477
MamoChiba|2012-11-08 00:01:15
I appreciate the idea to be able to fast-switch spells.

But I think this is totally useless without the possiblitity to fast-switch your characteristic point distribution as well. But as I understand, it is not easily possible to have this except if you scrolled all stats to 101 before investing any points (which is out of reach for many players).
But at the same time it can allow a Chance Fogger to become an Int/Chance or Str/Chance Fogger more easily.

With spell scrolls being more difficult to obtain, this will make stat scrolling a more primary focus for more hardcore players.

Either way though, I personally feel that there is too much focus on the need to scroll all spells and all stats.

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Score : 13424

If they are going to make it to where it is truly "fast switch" there should be an option in the spell menu to unlearn rather than having to travel to a temple to reset. (would still require the one dopples worth of doploons)

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Score : 2
Nerd-Tease|2012-11-08 01:45:37
If they are going to make it to where it is truly "fast switch" there should be an option in the spell menu to unlearn rather than having to travel to a temple to reset. (would still require the one dopples worth of doploons)
There are potions to go to the temple now , come on we should not be """that""" greedy.
imho the easy spell switch is a great idea and the scroll transfert will greatly help. I'de love to see it applied on stats scrolls as well.
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Score : 960
MamoChiba|2012-11-08 00:01:15
I appreciate the idea to be able to fast-switch spells.

But I think this is totally useless without the possiblitity to fast-switch your characteristic point distribution as well. But as I understand, it is not easily possible to have this except if you scrolled all stats to 101 before investing any points (which is out of reach for many players).
"fast-switching" your characteristics should not, and never be possible.

Now, moving back to the actual topic at hand: despite the changes ankama wants to introduce, neither of them change the inherent problem represented by the extreme difficulty of obtaining spell scrolls. And the two changes ankama wants to introduce are in absolutely no conceivable way, an alternative, and that is what the suggestion voted for was.

Change one ankama wants to introduce: easier spell resets.
The list of problems it doesnt solve:
  1. Builds that inherently require more than 13 spells to be functional. Keep in mind that a lot of these builds are class primary builds to top it off. Most of these builds require more than 13 spells far before endgame is reached, severely impinging on the build's strength.
  2. A split of the above problem- easily reset spells dont help players when it's an extreme inconvenience to run to the dopples between every dungeon room.
  3. Several others I dont have time to expand on.
Change two ankama wants: reconverting used spell point scrolls.
The list of problems:
  1. For starters, this is not a solution to obtain spell points. It is purely a "wall street shuffle" with the existing spell points. It does not solve the problem for which this thread was made.
  2. You cannot convert what you do not have. This is a solution that is looking for a problem that quite frankly does not exist yet.

Now that this thread's been made, I'll merely link my suggestion to solve this problem and request the threads get merged for simplicity. Click here
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Score : 13424
OoOoOoOoOps|2012-11-08 02:01:57
Nerd-Tease|2012-11-08 01:45:37
If they are going to make it to where it is truly "fast switch" there should be an option in the spell menu to unlearn rather than having to travel to a temple to reset. (would still require the one dopples worth of doploons)
There are potions to go to the temple now , come on we should not be """that""" greedy.
imho the easy spell switch is a great idea and the scroll transfert will greatly help. I'de love to see it applied on stats scrolls as well.
Yes, there are potions to go back, but should I really have to run all the way back to that steam crackler mob I just saw, after realizing a current strategy doesn't work?
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Score : 277

As mentioned these "solutions" do not solve the spell scroll issue they really are solutions to different problems.

A fast change of spells just makes it easier to test out different builds and spell combinations it doesn't add more spell points to your pool or make it easier to obtain spell scrolls.

Refund of excess spell points is a great idea considering all the changes to spells people may wish to refund some scrolling they have already done. Assuming this will mean more spell scrolls is still a fallacy as it assumes everyone who does refund will 1. turn the kolosskens into scrolls not pebbles or something else and 2. Sell the scrolls and not re-use for themselves. While there is a chance this will increase available spell scrolls it is only in the short term or at future spell changes where people decide they don't need a certain spell leveled and no use for the points. So again this basically fails to address the issue of methods of obtaining spell scrolls and helping those on smaller servers or small kolossieum communities on their server to be more precise.

I see no issue at all with making obtaining spell scrolls more difficult then they were but the current method forces people to PvP to obtain them without buying them creating a monopoly for PvP players to control and inflate prices. The current method also forces people to be dependent on other people where previously they could work with other people or solo if needed/desired. Under the previous method you were also rewarded with scrolls in a more timely manner if you were willing to put in a focused effort on a task that most weren't willing to do so quickly.

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Score : 4519
Digitized|2012-11-08 02:18:11
Now, moving back to the actual topic at hand: despite the changes ankama wants to introduce, neither of them change the inherent problem represented by the extreme difficulty of obtaining spell scrolls. And the two changes ankama wants to introduce are in absolutely no conceivable way, an alternative, and that is what the suggestion voted for was.

Change one ankama wants to introduce: easier spell resets.
The list of problems it doesnt solve:
  1. Builds that inherently require more than 13 spells to be functional. Keep in mind that a lot of these builds are class primary builds to top it off. Most of these builds require more than 13 spells far before endgame is reached, severely impinging on the build's strength.
  2. A split of the above problem- easily reset spells dont help players when it's an extreme inconvenience to run to the dopples between every dungeon room.
  3. Several others I dont have time to expand on.
Change two ankama wants: reconverting used spell point scrolls.
The list of problems:
  1. For starters, this is not a solution to obtain spell points. It is purely a "wall street shuffle" with the existing spell points. It does not solve the problem for which this thread was made.
  2. You cannot convert what you do not have. This is a solution that is looking for a problem that quite frankly does not exist yet.

Now that this thread's been made, I'll merely link my suggestion to solve this problem and request the threads get merged for simplicity. Click here
Digitized, I appreciate your input here, as well as everyone else's. However, I do not think a thread asking for the ability to exchange different types of tokens should be merged here. As you may have read already, developers are usually interested in hearing reasons why players are unsatisfied, as opposed to specific suggestions. Especially in this case, they have clearly shown to have a firm opinion on how accessible spell point scrolls should be. That is why we would like for everyone to evaluate the plans Sylfaen outlined, as you did in this post, rather than proposing alternative ways to gain spell point scrolls. Bluntly put, if Ankama wants to make spell points easier to obtain, they can easily come up with alternative ways. Letting them know "why" you think more changes are needed would be more effective than telling them "how" to change things.
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Score : 960

Simply put: spell points need to be more accessible for the simple fact that ankama has yet to modify every class so that every potential build a class can support does not extend beyond the "maximum" number of spells they can level to an effective point. An eniripsa will meet that 13 spell capacity long before they reach level 200, making spell points more or less required at lower levels. A feca reaches 10-12 spells just by leveling their defensive and offensive support spells. For iops, anything that is not a mono-str, mono-int, or mono-agi build, they reach 13 spell points just as quickly.

So while I understand giving out and out solutions in the zenith is "frowned upon," there's only so far a problem can be discussed before it simply the same stuff repeated over and over and over. So short of ankama "compacting" the amount of spells a given build needs, spell scrolls need to be made more readily accessible, even if that method of access is just as difficult.

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Score : 13424

Ok, they want a "why" things should be changed? Here goes:

I'm a lv 171 int/str foggernaut.

As a fogger, it can be almost assumed that the following spells must be maxed:

Harpooner
Lifesaver
Evolution
First Aid
Ambush
3 Primary Elemental attacks (cant really function otherwise)
(as a hybrid i will also need at least 2 of the 3 from another element, but i'll get to that in a moment)

thats 8*15 (120) spell points right there

I also have tide and grapnel maxed (bringing total up to 150)
trident lv 5 (total is now 160)
Anchor lv 4 (total 166)
Salt armor lv 3 (total 169)

I don't have any way to get more points than to level as kolo fights are almost non-existant. I don't even have a single level into tacturret or release because there are too many other spells needed.

The lack of spell point scrolls available, nullifies any hybrid build possibility for most people. And frankly, mono element builds are boring. So the choice is be bored but effective, or be be hybrid and enjoy a little bit more while being sub-par due to a lack of options.

That a lv 171 has so many essential spells to level, that they cannot level them all AND maintain a good build shows an issue (im having serious issues with a lack of release being leveled yet cant give up on the spells I have)

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Score : 830

Personally I am not going to make much use of the ability to cheaply unlearn many spells even on the characters I have so far been unable to make a spell scroll investment on.

The spells I have leveled are things that I cannot justify not having, be it because of how core they seem to the functioning of the class, that is is required for acceptable damage, or that the spell simply cannot function unmaxed due to a ridiculous AP cost or some other aspect.

I think that the change to spellpoint acquisition was probably necessary but I feel like we are punished in the short-term until further updates that improve spell scaling and the ability to actually find a Kolossium fight when you choose rather than 3 hours later.

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Score : 6477

I think that by looking at classes like the Masq, we can see how the Devs are thinking in terms of spells being viable on more than just lvl 5/6.

This is a key, and important aspect of the conversation.

This does hurt hybrid builds the most, along with spell intensive classes such as the Eni.

The number of spells that each build for each class requires and what levels those spells need to be at, is a part of the analysis one must make when building a character.

More static AP costs over each spell level would be an important start.

Thoughts?

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Score : 2702

I am more than willing to work for my goals, and farm the gear, farm the resources, and begrudgingly PvP for the spell points. When the voting thread came about, I asked for an alternative; I even suggested a return of a resource exchange (it can be in the form of a new mount), scrolls themselves being able to be dropped, or a repeatable quest. Any of those I would gladly go do to strengthen my characters than be faced with things like 'time to steal the pussy ass cra" "n00b cra, n00b asshole" "why you no kill that guy over there?!" rage, rage, and more rage. That's what I tend to see in the kolossium; a lot of e-penis stroking and flaming; something that I do not receive from the mobs I fight between kolossium fights.

Seeing a manner to make spell point scrolls with characters that have excess points (which means they had to gain a scroll in the first place) is all well and fine; but it is not an alternative to the mandating of having to participate in a drama war with other players. Again, I am requesting an alternative.

I would love for the Moderation team to be able to watch every last kolossium fight and instantly mute/warn/ban people for the heavy use of derogatory language, but that may be far reaching and will probably discourage kolossium being used.

So, back to the suggestions for an alternative: I would love a new mount. A new mount that exchanges for a spell point scroll. I would love to exchange multiple mounts for an either or choice, either 20 powerful strength scrolls or a spell point scroll. I wouldn't mind having to go farm something like pirates on frigost, or nolifis ghosts to be able to drop a spell point scroll. I wouldn't mind having to run to my class temple to initiate a quest that has me running/fighting something in order to get a spell point scroll. These are alternatives that can be used in conjunction with the kolossium.

I can't fathom a proper method, but I am tired of being berated by my 'peers' because I don't play their way, or that I don't feel the need to have every trophy known to dofus and am not heavily geared for pvp. I don't want to have to send screen shots of every last fight to a mod, mainly because by the time that the fight is over, the screen shots have been uploaded and sent; it's too late. The punishment must be as swift as it is corrective. Mods can't feasibly be on all the time; so the kolossium can't be monitored all the time; if it is monitored at all now.

So, one more time; I would love an alternative to having to face people in the kolossium to be able to get spell point scrolls. I would love an alternative to the masturbation that goes on in that realm of gameplay. Please, an alternative, something else, a second way.

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Score : 960
Electricotter|2012-11-08 19:44:51
I think that by looking at classes like the Masq, we can see how the Devs are thinking in terms of spells being viable on more than just lvl 5/6.

This is a key, and important aspect of the conversation.

This does hurt hybrid builds the most, along with spell intensive classes such as the Eni.

The number of spells that each build for each class requires and what levels those spells need to be at, is a part of the analysis one must make when building a character.

More static AP costs over each spell level would be an important start.

Thoughts?

As I've said earlier, the problem is spell point scrolls being beyond the "not an easy task" and into the domain of nearly impossible. Now, classes like the masq are able to function with some of the necessary spells at lower levels because of their inherent effects being that strong. Most other classes dont have that benefit, leastwise when speaking of hybrid builds too. But when you've got classes like the eniripsa who are literally required by endgame to consume a vast number of spell point scrolls to accomplish their build, or else face the prospect of hobbling around like a legless fairy.

If ankama's that unwilling to accept that they were vastly overzealous in their interest of making spell point scrolls less obtainable, then the alternative is to review the spell sets of every class, and rework the classes so that each build that the class has, does not reach over that 13 spell mark.
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Score : 830

I had touched on that in my post originally but it was gobbled up by my internet throwing a hissy-fit.

Ankama have made sure to make spells scale properly when they change them, right back to I think around the time Cras were overhauled and the entire game begun to move in a more unified design direction. There are still quite a few spells that have not been touched for other reasons and so have not received this balancing.

I feel like changes concerning spell points are half done - they've throttled the supply to limit further impact but they have not completed their transition into a luxury item used for optimizing builds. A hybrid Sadida cannot use Lvl 3 Bramble, a Sram can place no value in Lvl 1 Con, these aspects of characters are being entirely shut down based on lack of spell points alone rather than a meaningful choice in how potent they are.

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Score : 578
One thing that I find crucial is that pvp SHOULD NOT be required to get better.
Many people don`t ennjoy pvping and are forced to do so, just to get spell points.
Exchanging Diamonds was a great way to get spell points, not to mention that it`s unfair to any new player, as it`s a lot harder nowadays.
 
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Score : 2702
Gabezim|2012-11-08 21:07:35
One thing that I find crucial is that pvp SHOULD NOT be required to get better.
Many people don`t ennjoy pvping and are forced to do so, just to get spell points.
Exchanging Diamonds was a great way to get spell points, not to mention that it`s unfair to any new player, as it`s a lot harder nowadays.

It was pointed out that PvP has been a mainstay for bettering a character; just look at the history with percs. They removed the diamond exchange because of bots. But we do need an alternative, badly.
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Score : 960
surgray|2012-11-08 20:05:27
I had touched on that in my post originally but it was gobbled up by my internet throwing a hissy-fit.

Ankama have made sure to make spells scale properly when they change them, right back to I think around the time Cras were overhauled and the entire game begun to move in a more unified design direction. There are still quite a few spells that have not been touched for other reasons and so have not received this balancing.

I feel like changes concerning spell points are half done - they've throttled the supply to limit further impact but they have not completed their transition into a luxury item used for optimizing builds. A hybrid Sadida cannot use Lvl 3 Bramble, a Sram can place no value in Lvl 1 Con, these aspects of characters are being entirely shut down based on lack of spell points alone rather than a meaningful choice in how potent they are.
It's not that ankama's not yet touched on other spells, it's that they've completely choked off various builds, quite a few of them metagame staples in dofus, and have not done anything to fix it. For example, a guild member used to be a strictly battle-oriented eni with only ONE ally-healing spell leveled because they had no spell points available as a result of needing other spells leveled. Since then they've unleveled those spells and leveled the healing spells, increasing their healing support, but drastically impacting their overall support role.

It just seems that ankama's really going at it half-a**edly. First they decide they want less focus on weapons, and more on spells. And then they decide to firmly decide to stomp on the player's ability TO focus on spells by all but eliminating the ability to get spell point scrolls.
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Score : 6477

I feel the Kolo was chosen as it is the least abuse-able way for one to get Spell Points.

Were it simply farming mobs then they would be easy to get like in the days of Diamond exchanging.
If it was based on Breeding or Profs then players who dislike profs/breeding would be in the same boat as those that dislike Kolo.

It does serve as a viable form of income for PvPers however. Not to offer this as justification, but some people don't want to fight mobs.

There really isn't any surefire way that can make everyone happy.

I would think that the introduction of Kroz Arena would offer a valid alternate token method.

I can completely agree with the juvenile and disrespectful behavior that goes along with PvP.

Honestly PvP does more to ruin a community than it ever will to bring them together.
It is so rare to meet individuals that are capable of exhibiting sportsmanlike conduct.

However, this is something that we, as individuals, are in complete control of.

I personally just say no to Kolo and don't care if that means I can't have a "HAxor LeEt toon".

What is important to focus on here is that the Devs feel Spell Point Scrolls need to be rare.
There needs to be less characters running around with every spell at lvl 6.

These are the types of things that make balancing a game a nightmare.

Please do make all of the suggestions you want on how they make them available.
But what is MORE important, and what will be taken more to heart, is WHY.

It should also be noted that many classes haven't received a balancing pass/overhaul yet, and I feel that the word yet is important to stress here.

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