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Equipment and Sets - Topic of the Month (December)

By vagabaka - SUBSCRIBER - December 05, 2012, 03:08:26

In November's voting thread, DarkReaperSaika suggested talking about sets and received the most votes (12):

DarkReaperSaika|2012-11-10 06:18:50
We need a discussion on sets badly. We are lacking terribly on a str/agi set around 170's. I'm sure there are other builds that needs good choices at every level. Preferably would like some more sets with AP.

The question of what equipment to use is ever on our mind. This does not change even for many end-game players. Frigost and the 2.6 update has introduced many new pieces of equipment, and the upcoming 2.9 update will bring more, but as DarkReaperSaika said, the choice of equipment in many areas are still lacking.

Considering the ongoing interest of our community on this sort of topic, we have decided to expand it to include the whole array of sets, and not simply focusing on a specific level bracket. With that in mind, we have prepared some questions to serve as a guide. For the purpose of facilitation, we would like to agree on the following level brackets to be used during the discussion:

0 - 50 - 70 - 90 - 120 - 140 - 170 - 190 - 200

Background
Class, level brackets, build.
(feel free to include alts, if you multi account)

Questions
• What level bracket(s) do you feel is lacking in equipment choice?

• As far as equipment choice goes, do you think that the level bracket 190 - 200 is getting too much attention compared to other level brackets? Is this a good or bad thing? Why?

• What do you think should be available in highest quantities: big sets (5+ items) with set bonus, small sets (3 items), or standalone equipment?

• There are sets that provide significant bonuses in only one element (such as Otomai and Black Rat Set), two (Royal Mastogob, Fuji Snowfoux), three (Celestial Bearbarian), or four (Dreggon). Some sets focus on supportive stats (Minotoror, Lethaline). In which of these categories would you like to see more new sets?

• Updates since Frigost have introduced several sets and standalone equipment which provide AP/MP bonus, allowing players to get these bonuses with fewer sacrifices than before. Do you think this is a good change?

• Do you think equipment from old content are becoming obsolete due to the introduction of new equipment? Is this a problem that developer should avoid when designing new equipment, or do you think newly released equipment should be more powerful than old ones to attract player interest?

• Based on feedback we have gathered so far, most players who have tested or read about 2.9 equipment are unsatisfied, because they do not provide adequate bonus to compensate for their malus. What is your opinion on this? Do you think the direction of designing new equipment with bonus and malus is a good one?

• Set design is a complicated manner. Without going into too much detail, what suggestions do you have in terms of equipment design, if any?
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Reactions 56
Score : 15681

My #1 suggestion and only major complaint is that there should be higher wisdom on low level stat sets. Right now many people resort to leeching in pure wisdom sets because otherwise it takes forever to level. If there were only more low level sets that had both wisdom and stats it would be possible to level and fight at the same time. It isn't till mid game that you finally start to get decent wisdom on sets, and this doesn't make any sense to me.

The prespic set and other wisdom only sets should be killed off and more wisdom be added to existing stat sets, or new sets added with more wisdom and stats. This will reward people who actually play rather than just leech, and it will encourage the people who just leech to actually fight as well because they can have stats as well as wisdom.

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Score : 1431
answer deleted because of stupid forum software destroyed my post and I am not willingly to type everything again sad 
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Score : 960

I'll add a more comprehensive post when I have both hands available (donating blood atm), but for now, regarding set structures. Each build should have 2 types of sets: offensive and defensive. If its offensive, it should lack good resists to compensate for increased damage (-1 res per +1 damage, -1% per 5% power/+20 stat for example). Defensive should be just the opposite, with decreased damage to compensate the increased resists and support stats.

Essentially items should have a free 100 stat "power" before malus become present. For example, you could have an amulet that gives 1 ap, 60 in a stat, and -10% res of that stat element. Throw in 20 fixed earth res and it'll come with -40 intel. Or just 1 ap with no malus. Easiest way to go is with maging power levels of stats.

@mishna, not really. All it will do is start introducing items on the market with overmaged wisdom, moreso than what is found now. Nor is it a matter of more wisdom when some low level sets have a near total lack of wisdom.

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Score : 15681
Digitized|2012-12-05 15:28:07
I'll add a more comprehensive post when I have both hands available (donating blood atm), but for now, regarding set structures. Each build should have 2 types of sets: offensive and defensive. If its offensive, it should lack good resists to compensate for increased damage (-1 res per +1 damage, -1% per 5% power/+20 stat for example). Defensive should be just the opposite, with decreased damage to compensate the increased resists and support stats.

Essentially items should have a free 100 stat "power" before malus become present. For example, you could have an amulet that gives 1 ap, 60 in a stat, and -10% res of that stat element. Throw in 20 fixed earth res and it'll come with -40 intel. Or just 1 ap with no malus. Easiest way to go is with maging power levels of stats.

I don't think many players would be happy with having huge negative resists in PvM or in PvP. You'd probably have to end up mixing an offense and a defensive set to get zero percent resists and mediocre stats, which would not be very fun at all.

@mishna, not really. All it will do is start introducing items on the market with overmaged wisdom, moreso than what is found now. Nor is it a matter of more wisdom when some low level sets have a near total lack of wisdom.

There is already a system in place which prevents too much overmaging. So for example on Tont'ata staff you can only overmage it by +3 wisdom. Any attempts above that are an automatic 100% guaranteed failure which will drop the stats of the item. So adding new low level sets that have wisdom and stats doesn't necessarily mean that they will just turn into even more overmaged wisdom leeching sets. All that is needed is a restriction that the wisdom can not be overmaged on those sets, but perhaps the stats can.

If low level players have a choice between an old set which has only wisdom, or one of the newer sets that has stats and wisdom they will probably pick the newer sets, and end up having more fun fighting and leveling at the same time.
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Score : 1815

Rather than redoing a lot of low level gear you could also just add a (larger) wisdom gain to the set bonus. Either way I agree with you Mishna.

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Score : 317

Maybe we should look into the idea of adding a AP ring between a gelano and awmigawd band? Im thinking maybe a 130-150 level ring? Just stats to go off of: 150 vitality, 1-2 crits, 20 wisdom and +1 ap?

F*** this damn thing, wont let me finish it, well thats the point i guess O.e

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Score : 15681
SiberianCreeper|2012-12-06 02:32:55
Rather than redoing a lot of low level gear you could also just add a (larger) wisdom gain to the set bonus. Either way I agree with you Mishna.

That actually makes more sense and does sound easier to do. Also it would apply to all the existing sets that people out there have on.
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Score : 960
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-06 03:44:07
Maybe we should look into the idea of adding a AP ring between a gelano and awmigawd band? Im thinking maybe a 130-150 level ring? Just stats to go off of: 150 vitality, 1-2 crits, 20 wisdom and +1 ap?

F*** this damn thing, wont let me finish it, well thats the point i guess O.e
Not likely unless the ring has the same conditions the awm band has. 12 ap builds are impossible with awm bands if you arent an eni, xelor, or eca. They're also just as hard to do with gelanos because it's a set piece, giving an automatic restriction of "not wearing a gelano" to itself. There's supposed to be a tradeoff of "more ap, less other stats," or "more other stats, less ap." That's why gelanos have only ap on them (aside from being low level), and awm bands have the ap restriction.
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Score : 175

I like the idea of adding a larger wisdom bonus to the current lower level sets.

I am curious if adding a new pod set would be viable. Most of my characters with professions run around in either the gobball or royal gobball set. It would be nice to have a higher level set (anywhere over level 100) for non-strength characters to use. As it is, my 196 sac looks rather funny in royal gob while farming.

Putting conditions on the pod set would make things more interesting. Like the backpacks which require gatherer levels. Though, I would like to see the gatherer requirement expanded to include smiths, crafters and carvers, as not all of my profession characters can make use of the rucksack.

I don't mind carrying around a "pod set" for my characters. They don't use such a set for fighting at all but need it for gathering or mass craftings. It would just be nice to have some updated (higher level) choices and/or something specific to the profession characters.

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Score : 15681

I agree with the pod outfit suggestion. It would be awesome to make Staca Novistes backpack part of a set in which all the elements have a profession level requirement. It could work kind of like the class sets, except based off of profession level rather than character level: you get to wear the belt at profession > 10, the ring at profession > 20, the boots at profession > 30, the hat at profession > 40, etc, until the backpack at profession > 90.

It could even get really sophisticated if the full set had some sort of small bonus to profession experience rate, maybe 10% more profession exp while wearing the set, or perhaps 10% bonus to harvesting amounts, 10% bonus to stats when crafting items.

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Score : 487
vagabaka|2012-12-05 03:08:26
Questions
• What level bracket(s) do you feel is lacking in equipment choice?In my opinion I find a bit of lacking equipment from level 100-120 ish.

• As far as equipment choice goes, do you think that the level bracket 190 - 200 is getting too much attention compared to other level brackets? Is this a good or bad thing? Why? It is getting too much attention, but this comes with its reasons. It not necessarily a bad thing, but not good towards other levels who also need a wider variety of equipment choice. I mean level 200 deserves equipment, but when every equipment update is basically 180 and up. Then other level brackets do get neglected.

• What do you think should be available in highest quantities: big sets (5+ items) with set bonus, small sets (3 items), or standalone equipment?A few more big sets would be nice, but I really like the small sets containing 3-4 items. Because they usually have decent bonuses without taking up all item space.

• There are sets that provide significant bonuses in only one element (such as Otomai and Black Rat Set), two (Royal Mastogob, Fuji Snowfoux), three (Celestial Bearbarian), or four (Dreggon). Some sets focus on supportive stats (Minotoror, Lethaline). In which of these categories would you like to see more new sets? It would be nice to see a few more supportive sets that are a bit easier to obtain, but not too easy. As it stands now its hard to get certain mats for these sets for solo players.

• Updates since Frigost have introduced several sets and standalone equipment which provide AP/MP bonus, allowing players to get these bonuses with fewer sacrifices than before. Do you think this is a good change?I do not have much experience with the items, but from what I have seen and heard. The sets are great and more are welcome.

• Do you think equipment from old content are becoming obsolete due to the introduction of new equipment? Is this a problem that developer should avoid when designing new equipment, or do you think newly released equipment should be more powerful than old ones to attract player interest? I do believe equipment from old content is becoming obsolete due to the introduction of new equipment. Developers should not avoid it and continue on designing newer gear. Now should the gear be more powerful? I think yes, but not to the point where it become OP, but sparks a players interest to use it because it is better.

• Based on feedback we have gathered so far, most players who have tested or read about 2.9 equipment are unsatisfied, because they do not provide adequate bonus to compensate for their malus. What is your opinion on this? Do you think the direction of designing new equipment with bonus and malus is a good one? I think its good in the sense that it makes you really think about what to equip. If anything I'm unsatisfied that there is little to no new level 100+ gear and just 180+ gear coming out continuously.

• Set design is a complicated manner. Without going into too much detail, what suggestions do you have in terms of equipment design, if any?The gear should compliment the classes. By which I mean not give stats that may go unused by a character. What I will see is that certain sets benefit a specific classes rather than everyone in general. For example a set may give push back damage now while useful to some classes it will be useless to another class. And therefore a wasted stat.
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Score : 4089

I just want to jump in and make a note on something. I may or may not type up a full response later.

The CB set, crafted from materials gained from the hardest monster in the game is also one of the least sought after at end-game levels. This wasn't always the case, it was once the most powerful set in the game, used by just about everyone. The stats were nice and it gave a hefty sum of resists to boost, pleasing anyone who used it, PvM or PvP (mostly PvP).

However, people cried foul at the "op" set and it was nerfed. The amulet was given a condition to make the set weaker; the set was no longer it's former, glorious self. Players were now either forced to go into a hybrid build or pushed onto another set. Many moved on to newer, fuller sets, but the CB set was still largely used.

Ankama did not like this and, for whatever reason they wanted to toss another nerf on the set, they decided to change the sets one redeeming quality, the resists. Outrage followed and the markets were flooded with the discarded CB set; prices dropped like a stone. The set, once used by all for the stats and resists expected of from high-end items, is now only used as a stepping stone for those who can't afford better gear.

Now, I realize that the CB sets resists were extremely overdone and they may have deserved the nerf but, now that the set isn't being used by everyone, I'd like to see the now obsolete restriction of (Int; Agi; Cha less than 560) on the Celestial Bearbarian Amulet lifted. The set, built out of the toughest fur and fabrics in the World of Twelve, should not be the cheapest end-game set out there.

(Y u dramatize?!)

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Score : 1430

I would just like to shoot in another smal tingy which has bothered me when it comes to some of the already existing items.
What I am mainly thinking of would be the lvl 200 weapons. I mean, you just manage to get to the highest lvl in the game and what do you get as a "spechial" reward? A new emote, a in most cases uselss and nerfed dopple, and you can use a lvl 200 sword with 1/2 CF rate, and what bothers me the most: A useless scryte which you cant even use to farm with (!!)...

So in my opinion, maybe there should be a spechial house or something with a lvl 200 restriction to enter, with an NPC on the inside giving you a few quests (which should be rather hard, keep that in mind), and upon completing them you get a weapon/cape/hat/whatever to show off with? Linked to the account, so cant be tradeable, and no where near OP stats, but just to show off with, saying "Hey, I am lvl 200 and I have worked for it".

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Score : 960
Jardar|2012-12-07 08:25:51
I would just like to shoot in another smal tingy which has bothered me when it comes to some of the already existing items.
What I am mainly thinking of would be the lvl 200 weapons. I mean, you just manage to get to the highest lvl in the game and what do you get as a "spechial" reward? A new emote, a in most cases uselss and nerfed dopple, and you can use a lvl 200 sword with 1/2 CF rate, and what bothers me the most: A useless scryte which you cant even use to farm with (!!)...

So in my opinion, maybe there should be a spechial house or something with a lvl 200 restriction to enter, with an NPC on the inside giving you a few quests (which should be rather hard, keep that in mind), and upon completing them you get a weapon/cape/hat/whatever to show off with? Linked to the account, so cant be tradeable, and no where near OP stats, but just to show off with, saying "Hey, I am lvl 200 and I have worked for it".
That's what the dopple does actually. As far as actual level 200 stuff, while ankama is saying they want a power gap between 199 and 200, that gap cant be extremely big as a result of other unsavory things *cough* pvp *cough* that will result in that power gap being shrunk down.
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Score : 2986

0 - 50 - 80 - 100 - 120 - 140 - 170 - 190 - 200

Background
Class, level brackets, build.
(feel free to include alts, if you multi account)
every class divided into 2 8-man teams (an osa on both sides untill we get a 16th class) both are active. played every class in all level brackets in both pvp and pvm with almost all builds (execpt fogger)
Main admin of Solar's FB group and i help almost anyone that asks for set advice.Leader of a somewhat respectable guild, where I both help and learn from the members every day biggrin

Questions•
What level bracket(s) do you feel is lacking in equipment choice?
All. i do say that 50-80 and 80-100 would be more reasonable dividers however.

As far as equipment choice goes, do you think that the level bracket 190 - 200 is getting too much attention compared to other level brackets? Is this a good or bad thing? Why?

"TOO MUCH" only in a certain sense. 200 is the end of the road, and thus I feel you should be able to effectively be whatever build you want on any class. In particular, I think each class should have access to an omni version of their primary weapon (like a int/cha/str staff for sadi, and str/agi/cha staff for masq, int/cha hammer for osa, omni hammer for xelor, etc etc) as well as monoelemental weapons for each weapon. wands and hammers are generally fire based weapons, and normally require intel. yet at endgame there is NO pure fire wand OR hammer (unless you count step... which most people end up using toy instead) so yeah, endgame should have the most attention. however, the way they have been giving NO attention to other levels buggs me...

• What do you think should be available in highest quantities: big sets (5+ items) with set bonus, small sets (3 items), or standalone equipment?

i think there should be more pieces of standalone equipment than big sets. i think 1/3 of equips should be big sets, 1/3 be small sets, and 1/3 be individual items. so 100 pieces of equips would result in like 5 or 6 big sets, 11 small sets, and 33 individual items.

• There are sets that provide significant bonuses in only one element (such as Otomai and Black Rat Set), two (Royal Mastogob, Fuji Snowfoux), three (Celestial Bearbarian), or four (Dreggon). Some sets focus on supportive stats (Minotoror, Lethaline). In which of these categories would you like to see more new sets?

For endgame, I would say more dual-element sets. however.... before adding more sets with 2-element combos we already have.. finish with other combos... we have 3 str-agi sets at endgame (if you include berserker) and FINALLY a cha-agi set is added. (ogivol would be nice if it didnt' require a sacrifice... to reach FOUR mp...) for mid-level i think dual element sets are more in need too, but in particular, we need things that compare wiht moowolf for other elements (i'm honeslty fed up with EVERY class that has a strength being str normally because of the set options being SO much better... execpt enu/sac because their spells are so pitiful)

• Updates since Frigost have introduced several sets and standalone equipment which provide AP/MP bonus, allowing players to get these bonuses with fewer sacrifices than before. Do you think this is a good change?

Yes and no. I think Xa set is one of the best made sets in the game. I liked how with it you could have 12ap OR 6mp, but not both, still giving the sacrifice to reach it, but making it posisble. this however left out agility characters, which bugs me as well as many others.

• Do you think equipment from old content are becoming obsolete due to the introduction of new equipment? Is this a problem that developer should avoid when designing new equipment, or do you think newly released equipment should be more powerful than old ones to attract player interest?

Only slightly. I do NOT think new equipment should be more powerful, unless it is higher level or has certain drawbacks. In particular, I find it agrivating that new equipment often lack in prospecting. I think new equipment should provide more options. I think instead they should be DIFFERENT, and provide more options.

• Set design is a complicated manner. Without going into too much detail, what suggestions do you have in terms of equipment design, if any?
This is super hard for me...

1) avoid putting a weapon in a set. otomai sword and this new hammer, the hail sceptre and bworker dagger. it is OFTEN proven that we don't like weapons being part of a set bonus, as we like to choose our weapon as part of the build and if the set uses that slot, then it means we almost have to base on that build or loose a valuable set bonus. Xa Shovel (though i think should be at least a little stronger) is understandable, because the set itself is a very strong set and some people wanted an ap weapon.
2) stop loving on strength so much. strength should be the highest damaging build, ok cool. but strength characters are by far the easiest to equip now. especially in mid level, where moowolf set is by far the undisputed leader, mainly because it's pretty much the only mid-level set that allows for 10ap without major sacrifice..........
3) add wisdom and ap bonuses to lower level sets. in particular, make an agility/chance counterpart to gobball... I do like the direction they are going, and for the most part I like the equipment, but at the same time agree that with how heavy the malus is and how they did it, it's rather sad how low the stats are. the new cha-str set for example gives -3 range. yet just about every chance build uses range as a primary part of their build, and yet the stats on the set are not that impressive. -3 range is a HUGE killer for almost all classes that would use the set, and i think with a malus that wide, it should be almost as powerful as monoelemental sets but for more than 1 element. however, looking at the new fire/air and water/air sets, i do like more how those penalties are. -init is alot easier to work with, and the lower vitality is a fair trade for high critical hits and damage, as well as decent resist on nomarrow set. I am VERY dissapointed in the fact that yet another int-str weapon was added (as if we don't have enough options for them...........)

4) stop being so extreme on recipes... original frig equips were WAY too easy to make, the pre-frig equipment were WAY too grindy to make (12 peki fabrics? 10 gourlo powders? -.-) the monoelemental equips were a pretty good in-between. and then these new ones are just... more annoying. 42 peki hairs? 3 of each pebble? if my eni was to try to equip himself, he would be in the ugly situation of having to do dopples a LOT of times just for the necessary pebbles. forget everything else.
Anyone that knows me knows I can literally go on for hours and hours on sets, builds, levels, etc. expect alot of non-insulting but very heated replys from me on this particular topic. it's one i consider VERY dear. biggrin good thing i almost always remain open minded and look at all views.

And the best part is noone can accuse me of bias. >biggrin i've beaten and been beaten by it all biggrin

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Score : 984

I fondly remember the first time I peeked in on a battle between one of our servers' legendary 200 Sadi's versus a 199 Sac. The Sadi stayed at arms length, bombing the Sac with various bushfire and bramble and tear, then let his lvl 200 dopple into the action and wow it was actually a dopple that had some steam to it. The Sadi closed, and using Ethical Wand, made short work of the Sac, and it was right then and there I vowed to redouble my efforts to hit 200. Ran the plains in search of diamond stones to turn in for spell scrolls, fought day and night dreaming of leveling that little critter the nanosecond I hit 200.

Then came the nerf and I've been mightily pissed ever since. Not that old Hot wouldn't have won without the dopple, but man was that a swell fight to watch. I guess far too many 199's felt cheated and moaned all the way to Amakna headquarters.

Now there are NO definitive separations between levels and that's just a shame. I'd vote for a 200 lvl weapon, but Amakna would never, ever allow it to happen.

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Score : 317
Digitized|2012-12-06 15:52:32
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-06 03:44:07
Maybe we should look into the idea of adding a AP ring between a gelano and awmigawd band? Im thinking maybe a 130-150 level ring? Just stats to go off of: 150 vitality, 1-2 crits, 20 wisdom and +1 ap?

F*** this damn thing, wont let me finish it, well thats the point i guess O.e
Not likely unless the ring has the same conditions the awm band has. 12 ap builds are impossible with awm bands if you arent an eni, xelor, or eca. They're also just as hard to do with gelanos because it's a set piece, giving an automatic restriction of "not wearing a gelano" to itself. There's supposed to be a tradeoff of "more ap, less other stats," or "more other stats, less ap." That's why gelanos have only ap on them (aside from being low level), and awm bands have the ap restriction.
Yeah i meant to post that it should be part of a set or something. stupid forums. and those are just theoretical stats. Do we at least agree there should be a bridge between awmigawd and a gelano? Or am i alone in this boat?
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Score : 960
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-08 08:14:26
Digitized|2012-12-06 15:52:32
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-06 03:44:07
Maybe we should look into the idea of adding a AP ring between a gelano and awmigawd band? Im thinking maybe a 130-150 level ring? Just stats to go off of: 150 vitality, 1-2 crits, 20 wisdom and +1 ap?

F*** this damn thing, wont let me finish it, well thats the point i guess O.e
Not likely unless the ring has the same conditions the awm band has. 12 ap builds are impossible with awm bands if you arent an eni, xelor, or eca. They're also just as hard to do with gelanos because it's a set piece, giving an automatic restriction of "not wearing a gelano" to itself. There's supposed to be a tradeoff of "more ap, less other stats," or "more other stats, less ap." That's why gelanos have only ap on them (aside from being low level), and awm bands have the ap restriction.
Yeah i meant to post that it should be part of a set or something. stupid forums. and those are just theoretical stats. Do we at least agree there should be a bridge between awmigawd and a gelano? Or am i alone in this boat?
You're alone. A gelano is sufficient to make a 10-12 ap build until ap sets or awm bands become available. It's a stat tradeoff, remember? With the gelano, you get a free +1 ap that will last you in a 12 ap build. with an awm band, you get a bunch of extra stats, however you're restricted to a 10 ap build, which is limiting for some classes.
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Score : 13423
Digitized|2012-12-08 12:36:19
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-08 08:14:26
Digitized|2012-12-06 15:52:32
Periodic-Archer|2012-12-06 03:44:07
Maybe we should look into the idea of adding a AP ring between a gelano and awmigawd band? Im thinking maybe a 130-150 level ring? Just stats to go off of: 150 vitality, 1-2 crits, 20 wisdom and +1 ap?

F*** this damn thing, wont let me finish it, well thats the point i guess O.e
Not likely unless the ring has the same conditions the awm band has. 12 ap builds are impossible with awm bands if you arent an eni, xelor, or eca. They're also just as hard to do with gelanos because it's a set piece, giving an automatic restriction of "not wearing a gelano" to itself. There's supposed to be a tradeoff of "more ap, less other stats," or "more other stats, less ap." That's why gelanos have only ap on them (aside from being low level), and awm bands have the ap restriction.
Yeah i meant to post that it should be part of a set or something. stupid forums. and those are just theoretical stats. Do we at least agree there should be a bridge between awmigawd and a gelano? Or am i alone in this boat?
You're alone. A gelano is sufficient to make a 10-12 ap build until ap sets or awm bands become available. It's a stat tradeoff, remember? With the gelano, you get a free +1 ap that will last you in a 12 ap build. with an awm band, you get a bunch of extra stats, however you're restricted to a 10 ap build, which is limiting for some classes.
No, not alone. I think there should be a ring in the 170s - 180s (limit it also to AP < 11) but with more than just +1AP yet still less stats then an awmigawd band
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