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Foggernaut Balancing

By Relious - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - February 14, 2013, 02:00:37

Please review the following questions aimed at beginning or prospective Foggernauts:
How accessible do you find the Foggernaut class to be?

Is is too difficult to pick up?

Are there particular mechanics which you find intimidating or don't understand?
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NOTE: Since 2.10 will be released in a few hours, and nothing has been said to the contrary, i will be writing this with the assumption that the evolution changes will remain intact.

Things i would like to see:

  1. Although I would like to see foggernauts be able to cast first aid on themselves biggrin , I fully understand why this is a bad idea and therefore will not advocate that.
  2. To prevent abuse and a later-dated mega nerf so-to-speak, it is my utmost belief that there must be some sort of way to prevent multi foggernaut team abuse. (see next section)


Foggernauts need some kind of mechanism (other than a global cooldown) that prevents having a fully evolved turret before turn 3. (anyone see multi fogger teams on the horizon?)

The best solution i can think of is to have it so that evolution only further evolves your own turrets.
Reasons this would be better than a global cooldown
  • Global cooldown would discourage multi fogger teams
  • If koloing with randoms, foggernauts may sacrifice more than they normally would for initiative for the sole reason of going before an allied foggernaut.
  • Global cooldown would actually cause the utilization of both turrets in a multi foggernaut team to wait until turn 7 rather than the previous 5.


As for how balanced foggernauts are, I'd have to say that although they are powerful, they aren't over-the-top with it. (the devs did a good job by making it only 1 of each turret per team and only 1 fully evolved per foggernaut)
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Nerd-Tease|2013-02-26 03:02:32
Foggernauts need some kind of mechanism (other than a global cooldown) that prevents having a fully evolved turret before turn 3. (anyone see multi fogger teams on the horizon?)
Multi fogger teams are already discouraged. After turn 3 they lose out on power due to only being able to have 1 turret upgraded and 1 of each turret out. They don't even get the benefits of the turret evolutions till turn 2, so they're really not overpowered in that regard.

Just throwing that out there.

OT: I play a Chance Foggernaut in PvP, mostly Kolo though I do play about in 1v1.

The good
I think overall the class is good. the buffs to the chance build increased the Fogger's power by a lot and they are now excellent supports and damage dealers. Intel and earth were already strong builds, they're quite balanced, with not too much damage and a fair amount of healing. They also have a low skill floor (easy to pick up) and a high skill ceiling (hard to master).

The bad
I have four complaints. My first is that the class has almost no possible way to attack in melee range. Turrets have long cooldowns which means Grapnel can't be used consistently. Release can only be used every other turn and all of the Fogger's positioning spells are diagonal. This means that against a smart enemy, the Fogger can be roped into being able to do literally nothing on some turns. My proposed change for this is to remove the minimum range on Froth. It's not a large pushback, it's just enough for Foggers to keep their distance and use their spells, which almost all have a minimum or restricted range.

My second complaint is Tacturret. While it's better since the last update, which makes it so Tacturret prioritizes pushing allies over anything else, it's still awkward to use. I felt kind of cheated when I made my Fogger chance, because I was excited to use Tacturret as a great positioning spell. It'd just be nice if it could have a set order of operations, instead of being pseudo random. But again, this has been half repaired since the last update, and Tacturret is actually usable when it's fully upgraded.

My third complaint is once again about Tacturret, but this complaint is simply about its ability to pull. Rank 1, Tacturret doesn't pull people at all, which hinders it greatly. I think that the turret should be able to pull people at least 2 spaces at level 1, it's quite disheartening to have to use evolution on it just to pull someone 1 space.

My last complaint is Dreadnaut. For the sake of low level players, make Dreadnaut the special spell and Breakwater the lv100 spell or something, it's just ridiculous to have a 3MP Fogger trying to avoid a 7 range Harpooner!

Conclusion
Foggernauts are a really fun class. They just need a bit of polishing up. I love the class as a whole despite not writing much about their pros. However I feel that it's best to capitalize on the issues so that the Zenith know what is bad, because any Foggernaut should be able to tell you that the class is overall really great.
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Great post.

I also couldn't agree with Dreadnaut more.

This spell is so essential to the Fogger and having to wait until level 200 for the lvl 6 version is also kind of ridiculous.

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Hmm..... Fun one.....

I consider all the new classes (panda fogger masq and rogue) to be some of the best made classes in the game...

Hard to critique them... but here goes...

1) The already mentioned dreadnaut. except breakwater shouldn't be the level 100 spell, I think that would be just depressing to get to 100/200 for that.

2) Salt Armor. It needs something, as it currently sorta sucks. Either remove the limitation of where they're hit from, or up the shield (I say upping the shield)

3) Turrets need to become definite. Tacturret should ALWAYS swap chars you periscoped in the order that you did, and THEN push, not swap push swap or whatever it's in the mood for... Harpooner should ALWAYS target whatever has the lowest resistance... or whatever is closer (things same range go by the same rules as AoE) and heal turret ALWAYS heal whatever is lowest %hp. or closer. Also, priority should go to things like lifesaver or ambush, before anything else. if you use lifesaver on 2 targets, it heals those 2 before doing anything to anyone else. same for tacturret.

4) the magnetron mode on tacturret needs a little more range. I've never seen it used, nor have i found a time it's worth using. It should be able to pull someone from the same distance as it pushes them.

5) Diagonal pushback should damage the characters it hits, even if theyre off-set diagonal.

6) Evolution give +2ap to turets for 2 turns. This would help a little with how super vulnerable a turret is to AP steal, as well as at level 3, make it able to do more. this could be done just if you use evo on a already level 3 turret, so when it goes from 2 to 3 it doesn't have the ap... doesn't matter too much.

7) Pilfer needs a buff. something. I have a endgame intel fogger in my guild, and he doesn't even have it leveled, much less USE it. +4 base damage, or 1 higher range would really be enough...

8) Tide to be able to swap with the turret. Also significantly up the +pushback damage it gives to allys (like 50 or something)

I think that's the only things I can think of that need buffing...
now the other parts...

1) Grapnel should pull an even number of squares at all levels. and if diagonal, it pulls half as much. I think making it 2 sq at lv 5 (but 2 per turn) would be better, and having it pull 4 at lv 6. Kinda buggs me that pulling diagonal drags you 6 squares away, and then another 6 from another diagonal.

2) After thinking long and hard, I think it would be best if foggers can only activate and use their own turrets, as well as evolve it. if 1 fogger has a lifesaver, another fogger shouldn't be able to evolve it, or use first aid and then the turret heal that target. A global cooldown on evolution would be the alternative, if you really want to punish multi-fogger teams. but I think that's a little TOO much a punishment. (only a little)

3) Kinda funny how I say tide needs a little buff. then turn around and say it needs a nerf. It should have a cooldown. 2 turns at level 6 would be fine (every other turn) but the fact it can be used every turn, combined with being able to swap turrets, would be VASTLY overpowered.

4) amazed this one should be brought up, but I think it was just overlooked.... TACTURRET SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SWAP SOMEONE WHO IS ROOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that should get my point across.... I was absolutely appalled when I was fighting a fogger on my panda, and it totally ignored the fact I was supposedly "rooted".... but i think it's something like how frig monsters ignore "gravity" state. (at least I hope they just overlooked that... for a year.... eh. nvm. that's just ridiculous though)

5) Foggernaut dopple should not have backwash. 1) it makes trident a little more overpowered than it is. and 2) dopples shouldn't have map manipulating spells. just god no. AI is WAY too stupid for that...

6) harpooner's modifiable range. While it's nice. I think it's slightly unnecessary, and a little on the side of overpowered. I don't think of a fogger as a long ranged class, and being able to effectivly hit someone 20 cells away without needing LoS is a LITTLE overboard. And it being only 1ap, it's a little TOO good at locking somone in at such a high range.

7) more an indirect thing, but summons shouldn't target the turrets if the fogger has good resists. if anything, they should avoid the turrets (not really, that would mess the AI too much) because as it stands, summons are useless against a well built fogger. Also (if they aren't) they should be counted as summons now that whip isn't a instakill.

While yeah, this looks extensive, it's not that much...

Most of the tweaks I say there are just minor things. Many people consider foggers and OP class, but while I'd put them in the top teir, I wouldn't consider them OP. Theyre versatile, and CAN do just about anything, but they can't do it all at once, which balances them out. Also needing access to their turrets makes a big difference. Look forward to how this topic goes biggrin

Also did they update the forum software? It's not freaking out on me so much anymore! :O

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pirotekno|2013-03-24 09:19:12
Hmm..... Fun one.....

I consider all the new classes (panda fogger masq and rogue) to be some of the best made classes in the game...

Hard to critique them... but here goes...

1) The already mentioned dreadnaut. except breakwater shouldn't be the level 100 spell, I think that would be just depressing to get to 100/200 for that.

2) Salt Armor. It needs something, as it currently sorta sucks. Either remove the limitation of where they're hit from, or up the shield (I say upping the shield)

3) Turrets need to become definite. Tacturret should ALWAYS swap chars you periscoped in the order that you did, and THEN push, not swap push swap or whatever it's in the mood for... Harpooner should ALWAYS target whatever has the lowest resistance... or whatever is closer (things same range go by the same rules as AoE) and heal turret ALWAYS heal whatever is lowest %hp. or closer. Also, priority should go to things like lifesaver or ambush, before anything else. if you use lifesaver on 2 targets, it heals those 2 before doing anything to anyone else. same for tacturret.

4) the magnetron mode on tacturret needs a little more range. I've never seen it used, nor have i found a time it's worth using. It should be able to pull someone from the same distance as it pushes them.

5) Diagonal pushback should damage the characters it hits, even if theyre off-set diagonal.

6) Evolution give +2ap to turets for 2 turns. This would help a little with how super vulnerable a turret is to AP steal, as well as at level 3, make it able to do more. this could be done just if you use evo on a already level 3 turret, so when it goes from 2 to 3 it doesn't have the ap... doesn't matter too much.

7) Pilfer needs a buff. something. I have a endgame intel fogger in my guild, and he doesn't even have it leveled, much less USE it. +4 base damage, or 1 higher range would really be enough...

8) Tide to be able to swap with the turret. Also significantly up the +pushback damage it gives to allys (like 50 or something)

I think that's the only things I can think of that need buffing...
now the other parts...

1) Grapnel should pull an even number of squares at all levels. and if diagonal, it pulls half as much. I think making it 2 sq at lv 5 (but 2 per turn) would be better, and having it pull 4 at lv 6. Kinda buggs me that pulling diagonal drags you 6 squares away, and then another 6 from another diagonal.

2) After thinking long and hard, I think it would be best if foggers can only activate and use their own turrets, as well as evolve it. if 1 fogger has a lifesaver, another fogger shouldn't be able to evolve it, or use first aid and then the turret heal that target. A global cooldown on evolution would be the alternative, if you really want to punish multi-fogger teams. but I think that's a little TOO much a punishment. (only a little)

3) Kinda funny how I say tide needs a little buff. then turn around and say it needs a nerf. It should have a cooldown. 2 turns at level 6 would be fine (every other turn) but the fact it can be used every turn, combined with being able to swap turrets, would be VASTLY overpowered.

4) amazed this one should be brought up, but I think it was just overlooked.... TACTURRET SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SWAP SOMEONE WHO IS ROOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that should get my point across.... I was absolutely appalled when I was fighting a fogger on my panda, and it totally ignored the fact I was supposedly "rooted".... but i think it's something like how frig monsters ignore "gravity" state. (at least I hope they just overlooked that... for a year.... eh. nvm. that's just ridiculous though)

5) Foggernaut dopple should not have backwash. 1) it makes trident a little more overpowered than it is. and 2) dopples shouldn't have map manipulating spells. just god no. AI is WAY too stupid for that...

6) harpooner's modifiable range. While it's nice. I think it's slightly unnecessary, and a little on the side of overpowered. I don't think of a fogger as a long ranged class, and being able to effectivly hit someone 20 cells away without needing LoS is a LITTLE overboard. And it being only 1ap, it's a little TOO good at locking somone in at such a high range.

7) more an indirect thing, but summons shouldn't target the turrets if the fogger has good resists. if anything, they should avoid the turrets (not really, that would mess the AI too much) because as it stands, summons are useless against a well built fogger. Also (if they aren't) they should be counted as summons now that whip isn't a instakill.

While yeah, this looks extensive, it's not that much...

Most of the tweaks I say there are just minor things. Many people consider foggers and OP class, but while I'd put them in the top teir, I wouldn't consider them OP. Theyre versatile, and CAN do just about anything, but they can't do it all at once, which balances them out. Also needing access to their turrets makes a big difference. Look forward to how this topic goes biggrin

Also did they update the forum software? It's not freaking out on me so much anymore! :O
Part 1:
1. Dreadnaught is fine as the lv 100 spell, though it would be nice if it had an AoE (even a 1 cell cross)
2. Agreed
3. That would be nice on the tacturret, but the other turrets are already predictable enough, that using your map manipulation abilities, you should have no problem getting what you want from them.
4. Magnatron having 1 more range would be nice to keep pace with the tacturret's normal push range.
5. Maybe, but not a top priority change
6. I would rather they just give the turrets better AP loss resist than create an annoyance like giving it AP (This is from my standpoint as a 199 fogger,)
7. Not every spell of every class is really worth leveling. While it would be nice to have more range or an increase in damage, it is my belief that pilfer is not in need of tweaking as of yet.
8. No. Where you place your turrets is a tactical decision that should not be changed so easily. The increase in pushback damage is unnecessary as we already have scaphander for that

Part 2:
1. Grapnel is not an issue as is. honestly, i almost always use it diagonally anyways as that is usually the best option in terms of getting out of lock zones.
2. Definitely Agreed on restricting the activation of other foggernauts turrets, though a global cooldown on evolution is unnecessary.
3. Your logic for it needing a cooldown assumes that it will be able to swap with turrets. I think this to be a moot point .
4. Yeah, the only reason i can see this being why it works, is because it is designed to be able to swap with other turrets. This has the unintended consequence of allowing swapping other rooted things. This needs fixing.
5. I have yet to see the dopple in action, so I cannot comment accurately in this regard.
6. Modifiable range? what is this you speak of? The harpooner (as well as the lifesaver and tacturret) have fixed ranges. This prevents the abuse of distant shooting with the harpooner (a well placed tacturret behind it would make for very easy control that it only shoots things in front of it)
7. Whip was the only anti summon spell that did not work on turrets (for the obvious reason) I still do not wish it to be used on turrets though, as it still is an instakill for allied summons. I can think of more than one occasion where someone refused to listen and got hit and then tried to whip the harpooner out of spite. (besides new whip from an opponent standpoint is doing less damage than leek pie would)

Additional notes:
1. If the foggernaut dopple does indeed use backwash, I can see how trident could become very overpowered very quickly.
2. The use of trident has already seen some abuse along side an eni + Iop in kolossium on Zato. Frightning into wall repeatedly, intimidation spam. totaling over 1000 damage just from the triggered damage from trident.
3. I want to see how the weapon changes go in terms of breakwater. I can see this becoming a very powerful spell against things like swords.

I consider all the new classes (panda fogger masq and rogue) to be some of the best made classes in the game...
Pandas aren't really a new class, they have just been a subscriber only class for a very long time (until recently)
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Nerd-Tease|2013-03-24 11:18:24
6. Modifiable range? what is this you speak of? The harpooner (as well as the lifesaver and tacturret) have fixed ranges. This prevents the abuse of distant shooting with the harpooner (a well placed tacturret behind it would make for very easy control that it only shoots things in front of it)

That's not correct. Harpooner has modifiable range, unlike the other 2 turrets.
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mrsayanami|2013-03-24 11:36:38
Nerd-Tease|2013-03-24 11:18:24
6. Modifiable range? what is this you speak of? The harpooner (as well as the lifesaver and tacturret) have fixed ranges. This prevents the abuse of distant shooting with the harpooner (a well placed tacturret behind it would make for very easy control that it only shoots things in front of it)

That's not correct. Harpooner has modifiable range, unlike the other 2 turrets.
It most certainly does not. I have had cras bats eye it and it still hit at its normal max range.

Please do some research about a class before posting in a balancing thread about said class.

For more information about foggernauts, feel free to read through any of the help threads that have been posted in the foggernaut sub forum. The wiki is also a great source of knowledge.
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I'm sorry, I did check it before posting. I even logged my own 15x fogger to see it with my own eyes. The spell description says "modifiable range" and I testet it with fogger+eca (rough tongue).
Please don't think people don't know anything about a class just because their avatars show different characters.

edit: Ah, I think it's bit of a missunderstanding here. We're not talking about the harpooner's attack spell that has modifiable range but the summoning of the harpooner itself. It sounds like you are talking about it's attack spell, Nerd-Tease.

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Even still that is mostly a moot point.

Only Anchor and Periscope have boostable range, on top of Breakwater for utility, to really benefit.

It isn't really a big deal and it allows the opposition a way to stifle your damage by partially controlling where your Harp can be.

Evolution should definitely get a global cool down.

In terms of swapping with your turrets, I disagree with this completely.

They are meant to control a zone of the battle and take time to increase ones control of that zone.
(Even with Tact swapping with another turret it can only swap with a stage 1 turret. The same as just casting the turret in that spot.)

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Electricotter|2013-03-24 16:53:51
Evolution should definitely get a global cool down.
I still stand by what I said that it would be better to simply make it where a foggernaut can only evolve their own turrets.
There is already many things discouraging foggernauts from working together, this would just be over the top.

I'm sorry, I did check it before posting. I even logged my own 15x fogger to see it with my own eyes. The spell description says "modifiable range" and I testet it with fogger+eca (rough tongue).Please don't think people don't know anything about a class just because their avatars show different characters.edit: Ah, I think it's bit of a missunderstanding here. We're not talking about the harpooner's attack spell that has modifiable range but the summoning of the harpooner itself. It sounds like you are talking about it's attack spell, Nerd-Tease.
I do apologize if I came across as condescending, as that was not in any way what I intended. I see now where the misunderstanding occurred. Thank you for pointing this out as I will make sure to be more clear when I speak of modifiable range and the harpooner.
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I disagree as the cooldown is rather low.

The Fogger has other options available to them aside from just Evolution and turrets.

Furthermore I am uncertain how likely this is.

One Fogger's turret is the same as another's really.
The difference between enemy/ally is easy to establish, but outside of character death and boombot, the difference between my summon and yours is more complex.

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the tide thing is primarily to give just a little bit of control on them. the cool-down should be there either way. It's slightly on the side of overpowered, but it the cool-down would be best with something else, like turret swapping or something.

as for harpooner's range being a moot point. the main thing about it's insane range isn't so much it's ability to HIT someone so far (but that's PART) but it's alot to do with how easy it is to trap someone from across the map (or some THING) from across the map

Whip does nothing to summons. the only thing it does is auto kill ally summons, and by the way, when factoring in spell balance, i don't think team killing and angry people on your team should be accounted for. so someone on your team being mad and killing a turret is hardly a fair argument.. if anything, i'd like to be able to kill an ally's turret because it's in the way or going to hinder us. (whip is just a normal attack on enemies. summon or not, for those that don't know. the 17-20 dmg (summon) is a misprint or something. it hits non summons too)

dreadnaut having an AoE would make it more worthwhile. but as it stands, it seems better as a lower level spell. it's not a big deal honestly, but we're not discussing what should IMMEDIATELY happen, we're discussing the changes that the class "should" see, priority or not. such as pilfer. if it's not worth leveling, there's something wrong. a class shouldn't have useless spells. just because some DO doesn't mean it should be that way. look at cra's poison arrow for an example.

I disagree on global cooldown, but between than and what we have, it'd be an improvement. just individual turret control would be better.

I don't see how breakwater will be positively affected by weapon change. weapons will be used LESS, so how would something that only protects from weapons be improved by it? unless you meant salt armor.

the other 2 turrets are FAR from predictable. and what would be wrong with them being more so? I can use first aid on lifesaver, and it decided it would heal other things instead. being able to KNOW what your turret is going to do should be a major part of the class.

and finally, another major reason i was wanting the +ap isn't entirely so that it is more resistant to ap loss, but also so that if something is targeted by ambush or first aid, it can still use it's spell 3 times. or if 2 things are hit by first aid it can heal 2 more in it's range. this would give a fogger to continue using evolution on the turret, and open up having to make a choice on using it on turret or ally, or just not using that AP.

@nerd Good point on why theyre able to swap rooted characters. Didn't think about that.

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pirotekno|2013-03-24 23:41:07
the tide thing is primarily to give just a little bit of control on them. the cool-down should be there either way. It's slightly on the side of overpowered, but it the cool-down would be best with something else, like turret swapping or something.

as for harpooner's range being a moot point. the main thing about it's insane range isn't so much it's ability to HIT someone so far (but that's PART) but it's alot to do with how easy it is to trap someone from across the map (or some THING) from across the map

Whip does nothing to summons. the only thing it does is auto kill ally summons, and by the way, when factoring in spell balance, i don't think team killing and angry people on your team should be accounted for. so someone on your team being mad and killing a turret is hardly a fair argument.. if anything, i'd like to be able to kill an ally's turret because it's in the way or going to hinder us. (whip is just a normal attack on enemies. summon or not, for those that don't know. the 17-20 dmg (summon) is a misprint or something. it hits non summons too)

dreadnaut having an AoE would make it more worthwhile. but as it stands, it seems better as a lower level spell. it's not a big deal honestly, but we're not discussing what should IMMEDIATELY happen, we're discussing the changes that the class "should" see, priority or not. such as pilfer. if it's not worth leveling, there's something wrong. a class shouldn't have useless spells. just because some DO doesn't mean it should be that way. look at cra's poison arrow for an example.

I disagree on global cooldown, but between than and what we have, it'd be an improvement. just individual turret control would be better.

I don't see how breakwater will be positively affected by weapon change. weapons will be used LESS, so how would something that only protects from weapons be improved by it? unless you meant salt armor.

the other 2 turrets are FAR from predictable. and what would be wrong with them being more so? I can use first aid on lifesaver, and it decided it would heal other things instead. being able to KNOW what your turret is going to do should be a major part of the class.

and finally, another major reason i was wanting the +ap isn't entirely so that it is more resistant to ap loss, but also so that if something is targeted by ambush or first aid, it can still use it's spell 3 times. or if 2 things are hit by first aid it can heal 2 more in it's range. this would give a fogger to continue using evolution on the turret, and open up having to make a choice on using it on turret or ally, or just not using that AP.

@nerd Good point on why theyre able to swap rooted characters. Didn't think about that.

Breakwater will be more useful because it lasting 2 turns will actually mean something instead of it getting beaten through in 1 turn.
And yes, salt armor will be positively impacted as CC will be less of a threat anyways.

The other 2 turrets are extremely predictable. They act on whatever they will be most effective on. If I have -200% resist from an effect and the harpooner only has 2 AP from AP loss... even if I hit something with ambush, it will do more damage to me so it will attack me.
Similarly with the lifesaver, if I'm in a frig fight where most monsters have a higher top end hp than players, it will target them over us as it is primarily a % based heal.

These are rather simplified examples, but the AI has a set of rules deciding what it does. While ankama has not explicitly stated this is how it works, after much experimentation and experience, I can easily confirm that these are taken into account when prioritizing targets.
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Nerd-Tease|2013-03-25 00:31:28
pirotekno|2013-03-24 23:41:07


Breakwater will be more useful because it lasting 2 turns will actually mean something instead of it getting beaten through in 1 turn.
And yes, salt armor will be positively impacted as CC will be less of a threat anyways.

The other 2 turrets are extremely predictable. They act on whatever they will be most effective on. If I have -200% resist from an effect and the harpooner only has 2 AP from AP loss... even if I hit something with ambush, it will do more damage to me so it will attack me.
Similarly with the lifesaver, if I'm in a frig fight where most monsters have a higher top end hp than players, it will target them over us as it is primarily a % based heal.

These are rather simplified examples, but the AI has a set of rules deciding what it does. While ankama has not explicitly stated this is how it works, after much experimentation and experience, I can easily confirm that these are taken into account when prioritizing targets.
the sheer fact that it would target you over something you used ambush is a huge problem in itself... and should be fixed. that's my point. it should take what you say for it tot do as priority over what it chooses to do.

also thanks for elaborating on breakwater, that really is a good point. Never thought of it that way. biggrin 
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Electricotter|2013-03-24 23:12:43
The difference between enemy/ally is easy to establish, but outside of character death and boombot, the difference between my summon and yours is more complex.
Just because it would be a slight inconvenience to make something work properly, does not mean that it should be patched up with glue and duct tape.

Also, I don't believe this to be the case, as the sadida's inflatable will choose to buff the mp of its summoner if possible before giving it to another player.
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pirotekno|2013-03-24 09:19:12

1) Grapnel should pull an even number of squares at all levels. and if diagonal, it pulls half as much. I think making it 2 sq at lv 5 (but 2 per turn) would be better, and having it pull 4 at lv 6. Kinda buggs me that pulling diagonal drags you 6 squares away, and then another 6 from another diagonal.

2) After thinking long and hard, I think it would be best if foggers can only activate and use their own turrets, as well as evolve it. if 1 fogger has a lifesaver, another fogger shouldn't be able to evolve it, or use first aid and then the turret heal that target. A global cooldown on evolution would be the alternative, if you really want to punish multi-fogger teams. but I think that's a little TOO much a punishment. (only a little)

3) Kinda funny how I say tide needs a little buff. then turn around and say it needs a nerf. It should have a cooldown. 2 turns at level 6 would be fine (every other turn) but the fact it can be used every turn, combined with being able to swap turrets, would be VASTLY overpowered.

4) amazed this one should be brought up, but I think it was just overlooked.... TACTURRET SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SWAP SOMEONE WHO IS ROOTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think that should get my point across.... I was absolutely appalled when I was fighting a fogger on my panda, and it totally ignored the fact I was supposedly "rooted".... but i think it's something like how frig monsters ignore "gravity" state. (at least I hope they just overlooked that... for a year.... eh. nvm. that's just ridiculous though)

5) Foggernaut dopple should not have backwash. 1) it makes trident a little more overpowered than it is. and 2) dopples shouldn't have map manipulating spells. just god no. AI is WAY too stupid for that...

6) harpooner's modifiable range. While it's nice. I think it's slightly unnecessary, and a little on the side of overpowered. I don't think of a fogger as a long ranged class, and being able to effectivly hit someone 20 cells away without needing LoS is a LITTLE overboard. And it being only 1ap, it's a little TOO good at locking somone in at such a high range.

7) more an indirect thing, but summons shouldn't target the turrets if the fogger has good resists. if anything, they should avoid the turrets (not really, that would mess the AI too much) because as it stands, summons are useless against a well built fogger. Also (if they aren't) they should be counted as summons now that whip isn't a instakill.
1. Grapnel's Diagonal pull is blockable by objects. It's only useful in wide open areas, of which there aren't many. It's a way for the Foggernaut to traverse the map. It's not efficient at all when it comes to getting out of dodge locks. That's why it's 6 squares.

2. No... Multiple foggers on a single team are already discouraged by the fact that only 1 of each turret is able to be spawned. Seriously, there's no problems with dual fogger teams, they're not overpowered and teams aren't completely wrecked if they have two foggers. Your suggestion is aiming to make teams which happen to have two foggers be completely useless.

3. No... Tide is fine... Foggernauts have Cawwot and Chafer if they want to switch with a summon. Their mobility would be approaching that of a Sacrier or Cra if they were able to switch with turrets.

4. I believe Tacturret is able to swap with someone who is rooted, but isn't able to push them. I'd imagine this being something in how the Tacturret is programmed. It's probably done similar to rewind (if someone is occupying your starting space space when you rewind yourself, you switch places with them.

5. Not much I can say on this, but dopples generally aren't a problem... Backwash also isn't much of a map manipulation spell rather than it is an annoyance, something that dopples aim at doing.

6. Evolution isn't modifiable. So if a Fogger uses Harpooner half way across the map, it's only going to stay rank 1 until they get there. This feature is fine. Also, Foggernauts ARE a mid to long ranged class.

7. They should. Turrets should be treated the same as other summons in this regard. Summons will target other summons, bombs, turrets and will even be discouraged from attacking if there are traps. Summons are extremely powerful, they need to have ways of being controlled. Also, you can't complain about Osamodas being useless against certain classes in PvP, because that isn't true AT ALL.

Nerd-Tease|2013-03-24 11:18:24
Part 1:
1. Dreadnaught is fine as the lv 100 spell, though it would be nice if it had an AoE (even a 1 cell cross)
2. Agreed
3. That would be nice on the tacturret, but the other turrets are already predictable enough, that using your map manipulation abilities, you should have no problem getting what you want from them.
4. Magnatron having 1 more range would be nice to keep pace with the tacturret's normal push range.
5. Maybe, but not a top priority change
6. I would rather they just give the turrets better AP loss resist than create an annoyance like giving it AP (This is from my standpoint as a 199 fogger,)
7. Not every spell of every class is really worth leveling. While it would be nice to have more range or an increase in damage, it is my belief that pilfer is not in need of tweaking as of yet.
8. No. Where you place your turrets is a tactical decision that should not be changed so easily. The increase in pushback damage is unnecessary as we already have scaphander for that
1. Dreadnaut is only fine as the lv100 spell when you're over level 100. For anyone under level 100, not having any access to dreadnaut at all is a huge problem. The spell being level 100 isn't a problem for you. However it is a problem for other people.
3. No, they should be clear in what they do. They shouldn't sometimes bend their own rules simply because they want to. The AI should be properly programmed to do things in a set order.

Nerd-Tease|2013-03-25 00:46:45
Just because it would be a slight inconvenience to make something work properly, does not mean that it should be patched up with glue and duct tape.

Also, I don't believe this to be the case, as the sadida's inflatable will choose to buff the mp of its summoner if possible before giving it to another player.
Calling it a "Slight Inconvenience" is an insult to the programmer's work. Try programming AI and you'll see that it's hours of hair pulling work.
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Score : 2010

I have one simple suggestion that most people will probably agree to:

Make so that Tucturrent's Evolution III acts predictably. By this I mean that it should ALWAYS first switch places with target and then pull/push. Right now its very hard to use this turret's final evolution effectively because sometimes it pushes first and then switches.

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Score : 13423
kakisuka|2013-03-25 03:01:07


Nerd-Tease|2013-03-25 00:46:45
Just because it would be a slight inconvenience to make something work properly, does not mean that it should be patched up with glue and duct tape.

Also, I don't believe this to be the case, as the sadida's inflatable will choose to buff the mp of its summoner if possible before giving it to another player.
Calling it a "Slight Inconvenience" is an insult to the programmer's work. Try programming AI and you'll see that it's hours of hair pulling work.
That was taken out of context. I was not talking about changing the AI here. (I HAVE programmed an AI before for a chess game... it was a pain in the *** .)

This was in relation to having an identifier of some sort preventing evolution from effecting other foggernaut's turrets
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