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Foggernaut Balancing

By Relious - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - February 14, 2013, 02:00:37
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Score : 13424
FoodLord|2013-05-19 17:54:08
rreinierr|2013-05-19 15:10:34
I think ambush needs a bit of a change.

The range is very limited (can be boostable with class belt, but you will be sacrificing important stats)
I think this range should be modifiable without the use of this belt.

The range of every intel spell is low or has a difficult casting range. I think surge could get a boost or pilfer should not be only diagonaly.
Ambush is very powerful once the Harpooner is maxed. There's no need to change it, it already has pretty nice range (compared to most fogger spells). Moreover, it could get 6 range from equipment, 3 range from Periscope, and 6 range from Distant Shooting, giving Ambush 23 range...

Pilfer's and Surge's ranges don't really need a boost, because the int fogger has increased heal capabilities at the cost of harder to use/weaker attacks.
There is a reason the intel build is more restricted than the others. It suffers short to mid range combat, in exchange for superior healing ability. while sometimes I feel a bit useless for damage (like on gigantic maps) I can quickly change that by using grapnel to close in on an enemy.
Intel builds can arguably make the best use of the harpooner, as they can already heal well without the lifesaver evolved.
Strength builds have long range attacks, with larger damage when closer and near walls.
Chance builds have the largest damage output, and arguably can make the best use of the lifesaver, as they are not as dependent on the harpooner for damage.

The foggernaut is one of the better balanced classes for the time being. They have an obvious weakness that almost every class has a way to make use of, but not so much that it renders them uselsss. Each individual build has something different to offer, and hybridizing is fully possible.
The only thing I am disliking so far, is that because of how useful each of our support spells is, I am still short 45 spell point scrolls from being finished. (well, 59 at lv 200)
Many classes deal with this though, as has been mentioned in the spell point thread.
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The should, you know, fix the Foggers Dopple. It is fucking retarded. If you cast scaphander or evolution it will literally run up to the oppenent and do absolutely nothing. The AI is completely broken and it has Zero idea of what to do half the time.

Im a str/cha pushback fogger, I love using Trident+froth+Backwash and things like that and when i saw the dopple also had backwash and froth I though it would actually be pretty decent. But nah, It doesn't even know how to properly use Pushback Dmg half the time.

It's AI needs a serious overhauls. It puts a complete shame to the fogger class.

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Score : 3877
bakerbaker|2013-08-22 07:35:42
The should, you know, fix the Foggers Dopple. It is fucking retarded. If you cast scaphander or evolution it will literally run up to the oppenent and do absolutely nothing. The AI is completely broken and it has Zero idea of what to do half the time.

Im a str/cha pushback fogger, I love using Trident+froth+Backwash and things like that and when i saw the dopple also had backwash and froth I though it would actually be pretty decent. But nah, It doesn't even know how to properly use Pushback Dmg half the time.

It's AI needs a serious overhauls. It puts a complete shame to the fogger class.
Ankama is aware of this bug, and I am sure they are trying to fix it tongue
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Hi, I haven't read the full topic so I don't know if these have been mentioned, but a few issues I have with the class:

1) The coop/turret lock strategy needs to go. Either make the turrets movable i.e. so that they can be pushed or prohibit buffing the turret. Sure, this strategy is more of a team play PvP issue, but it's still a big issue. A fogger + an osa, or + a feca = an unkillable turret.

I also think that periscope should be reduced to almost close combat range, because foggers can employ the aforementioned ghastly strategy at range, and this just seems ridiculous to me.

2) Lifesaver healing needs a tone down. It's normal spell healing is okay, but Rescue is simply too strong. The simple fix for this would be to make the healing based on a percentage of the fogger's max hp at the beginning of the fight i.e. without erosion or vitality increasing spells taken into account. That, or limit the turret to one rescue per turn.

3) I would like to see a tone down on fogger maneuverability. I think it's a little strong, and I think an easy fix for this would be simply to reduce the range of tide and grapnel by 1-2. That being said this isn't probably a game-breaking issue like the ones above.

Just my 2 cents.

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Noureldin|2013-08-25 23:42:16
Hi, I haven't read the full topic so I don't know if these have been mentioned, but a few issues I have with the class:

1) The coop/turret lock strategy needs to go. Either make the turrets movable i.e. so that they can be pushed or prohibit buffing the turret. Sure, this strategy is more of a team play PvP issue, but it's still a big issue. A fogger + an osa, or + a feca = an unkillable turret.

I also think that periscope should be reduced to almost close combat range, because foggers can employ the aforementioned ghastly strategy at range, and this just seems ridiculous to me.

2) Lifesaver healing needs a tone down. It's normal spell healing is okay, but Rescue is simply too strong. The simple fix for this would be to make the healing based on a percentage of the fogger's max hp at the beginning of the fight i.e. without erosion or vitality increasing spells taken into account. That, or limit the turret to one rescue per turn.

3) I would like to see a tone down on fogger maneuverability. I think it's a little strong, and I think an easy fix for this would be simply to reduce the range of tide and grapnel by 1-2. That being said this isn't probably a game-breaking issue like the ones above.

Just my 2 cents.
1. The coop/turret strategy has many ways of being countered, and your osa fogger feca team has little damage to be dealt if they are using all of their ap to keep a tacturret alive.

2. Lifesaver has a 20% heal that requires 3 turns to set up. There are ways to prevent it, and the healing is significantly lower than what the majority of enis can heal. any erosion on the target will reduce the amount this ends up healing as their max vit has dropped.

3. maneuverability really isnt an issue. Grapnel requires casting a turret to grapnel to, which makes it cost 3-5 AP. Tide is 3 range diagonal and requires a target to swap with. It cant be buffed on range, and therefore is not even a high mobility spell. It would cost 10 AP to escape with tide if nothing was already there to swap with (chaferfu + backwash + tide)

With the exception of the Fogger/osa/feca team (that has very little damage compared to other teams (at least if they use this awful strategy)) A foggernaut's turrets can be killed quite easily. I mean, with a 4k vit foggernaut you are talking about having to deal about 1600 damage on the highest hp turret, the harpooner, less on the others. Wait for the first time they evolve it, then blitz it.

It isn't a real hard thing to do, and is a quite obvious weakness of the class.
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Noureldin|2013-08-25 23:42:16
Hi, I haven't read the full topic so I don't know if these have been mentioned, but a few issues I have with the class:

1) The coop/turret lock strategy needs to go. Either make the turrets movable i.e. so that they can be pushed or prohibit buffing the turret. Sure, this strategy is more of a team play PvP issue, but it's still a big issue. A fogger + an osa, or + a feca = an unkillable turret. Many classes have ways to jump away, unbuff or kill the foggernaut before the turret is even level III. Next to that, they can only lock 1 char, so there are 2 others to kill the foggernaut. This shouldn't be to hard since that team has next to no damage.

I also think that periscope should be reduced to almost close combat range, because foggers can employ the aforementioned ghastly strategy at range, and this just seems ridiculous to me. It has a 1-8 range at lvl 6 if I am correct (don't use it that often) so it's that long. If you reduce it to close combat range, it will become useless.

2) Lifesaver healing needs a tone down. It's normal spell healing is okay, but Rescue is simply too strong. The simple fix for this would be to make the healing based on a percentage of the fogger's max hp at the beginning of the fight i.e. without erosion or vitality increasing spells taken into account. That, or limit the turret to one rescue per turn. If they upgrade lifesaver, their damage is reduced by a lot. Next to that, the foggernaut can't cast it on himself so try to take him out first.

3) I would like to see a tone down on fogger maneuverability. I think it's a little strong, and I think an easy fix for this would be simply to reduce the range of tide and grapnel by 1-2. That being said this isn't probably a game-breaking issue like the ones above. I disagree. All their mapcontrol is diagonal (exept for grapnel, but that only be cast on turrets) so they can't do anything when you lock them.

Just my 2 cents.
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Nerd-Tease|2013-08-26 10:02:12
1. The coop/turret strategy has many ways of being countered, and your osa fogger feca team has little damage to be dealt if they are using all of their ap to keep a tacturret alive.

2. Lifesaver has a 20% heal that requires 3 turns to set up. There are ways to prevent it, and the healing is significantly lower than what the majority of enis can heal. any erosion on the target will reduce the amount this ends up healing as their max vit has dropped.

3. maneuverability really isnt an issue. Grapnel requires casting a turret to grapnel to, which makes it cost 3-5 AP. Tide is 3 range diagonal and requires a target to swap with. It cant be buffed on range, and therefore is not even a high mobility spell. It would cost 10 AP to escape with tide if nothing was already there to swap with (chaferfu + backwash + tide)

With the exception of the Fogger/osa/feca team (that has very little damage compared to other teams (at least if they use this awful strategy)) A foggernaut's turrets can be killed quite easily. I mean, with a 4k vit foggernaut you are talking about having to deal about 1600 damage on the highest hp turret, the harpooner, less on the others. Wait for the first time they evolve it, then blitz it.

It isn't a real hard thing to do, and is a quite obvious weakness of the class.

1. It takes 2 ap for an osa to nat defense a turret, and 1 ap for a feca to reinforce it. 3 if he's feca's shielding it but that then lasts for 4 turns. Unless they have 6 ap max I don't think is going to cripple their output. Also, a team setup doesn't have to have all three of those classes. Osa/fogger/iop is a setup I would imagine would work pretty damn nicely considering the strategy doesn't cripple the Iop's output at all.

2. How exactly do you prevent its heal?? there's no inbetween period before First Aid and Rescue so you can't really prevent it going off, unless you mean by killing the turret which is nice in theory but in practice if you're able to kill a fogger's lifesaver they've probably put it in a bad place. Also I really disagree that it's significantly lower than the average eni since it takes enis 6-8 ap to dish out what foggers can do with 3.

3. I didn't say fogger mobility is a massive issue and I'm okay with it in general so okay I accept your point. But just about tide, surely if nothing is there, escaping with tide takes 7 ap since if tide itself has such a poor range why would backwash whatever it is you're swapping with??

Lastly, as I said it doesn't have to be a fogger/osa/feca team to use this strategy, I didn't mean it was exclusive to that setup but it was my own bad wording so I see how you have understood it that way. Also I strongly disagree that it is an 'awful' strategy, and the idea about killing the turrets easily is not even a valid point (imo) because only a bad fogger would summon a tacturret in full range of the enemy team (infact doing so would make the whole strategy pointless as it would literally have to be stuck out in the middle of the map somewhere).

You simply can't just ''wait for the first time they evolve it and then blitz it'', it's a nice idea in theory but again in practice it just doesn't work because you would have to severely compromise yourself to kill it (thus giving the enemy fogger team what they wanted in the first place) or it would just be placed out of range/LoS. I believe the strategy really is a problem, because it allows certain team compositions to have unfairly high synergy.

Cute-Fire|2013-08-26 14:04:59
Noureldin|2013-08-25 23:42:16
1. Many classes have ways to jump away, unbuff or kill the foggernaut before the turret is even level III. Next to that, they can only lock 1 char, so there are 2 others to kill the foggernaut. This shouldn't be to hard since that team has next to no damage.
2. It has a 1-8 range at lvl 6 if I am correct (don't use it that often) so it's that long. If you reduce it to close combat range, it will become useless.

3. If they upgrade lifesaver, their damage is reduced by a lot. Next to that, the foggernaut can't cast it on himself so try to take him out first.
4. I disagree. All their mapcontrol is diagonal (exept for grapnel, but that only be cast on turrets) so they can't do anything when you lock them.


1. The classes that can defend themselves against this strategy are: Iop, Feca, Masq, Fogger, Rogue, Sac, and Xelor. That means that more than half of the classes are susceptible to this strategy including almost all of the 'support' classes. But regardless this strategy simply wouldn't be used on a class that could counter it, and in teamplay there is more likely to be at least one class that can't counter it so the strategy would still work.

Also the odds of you killing a fogger before he uses his turret are probably pretty low since he wouldn't be running straight at the enemy or leaving himself open until he's finished upgrading his turret, and you are forgetting that the fogger has 2 other teammates which means 3 in total. So they are basically 3v2'ing the enemy team for up to the entire fight. Sorry but that is just game-changing on the biggest of scales.

2. Periscope is apparently 0-6 range but it is also boostable, and since +4 range is easily obtainable at least, that means that foggers have 1-10 range with Periscope, and they could easily be half a map away from their turret. This easily outshines sacrier's coop which not only has a lower effective range but also compromises the sac. The fact that foggers can do this with little to no personal risk is silly imo.

3. Umm, no it isn't?? I think that most foggers would probably prefer to upgrade a lifesaver instead of a harpooner, and even if the opposite were true most of a foggers damage comes from the spells they use not the turret.

4. Just because their map control is diagonal doesn't mean they can't be locked?? They can just use tide to get away or they can summon a turret and grapnel. It is practically impossible to lock a fogger.
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Noureldin|2013-08-26 20:03:30
Nerd-Tease|2013-08-26 10:02:12
1. The coop/turret strategy has many ways of being countered, and your osa fogger feca team has little damage to be dealt if they are using all of their ap to keep a tacturret alive.

2. Lifesaver has a 20% heal that requires 3 turns to set up. There are ways to prevent it, and the healing is significantly lower than what the majority of enis can heal. any erosion on the target will reduce the amount this ends up healing as their max vit has dropped.

3. maneuverability really isnt an issue. Grapnel requires casting a turret to grapnel to, which makes it cost 3-5 AP. Tide is 3 range diagonal and requires a target to swap with. It cant be buffed on range, and therefore is not even a high mobility spell. It would cost 10 AP to escape with tide if nothing was already there to swap with (chaferfu + backwash + tide)

With the exception of the Fogger/osa/feca team (that has very little damage compared to other teams (at least if they use this awful strategy)) A foggernaut's turrets can be killed quite easily. I mean, with a 4k vit foggernaut you are talking about having to deal about 1600 damage on the highest hp turret, the harpooner, less on the others. Wait for the first time they evolve it, then blitz it.

It isn't a real hard thing to do, and is a quite obvious weakness of the class.

1. It takes 2 ap for an osa to nat defense a turret, and 1 ap for a feca to reinforce it. 3 if he's feca's shielding it but that then lasts for 4 turns. Unless they have 6 ap max I don't think is going to cripple their output. Also, a team setup doesn't have to have all three of those classes. Osa/fogger/iop is a setup I would imagine would work pretty damn nicely considering the strategy doesn't cripple the Iop's output at all.

2. How exactly do you prevent its heal?? there's no inbetween period before First Aid and Rescue so you can't really prevent it going off, unless you mean by killing the turret which is nice in theory but in practice if you're able to kill a fogger's lifesaver they've probably put it in a bad place. Also I really disagree that it's significantly lower than the average eni since it takes enis 6-8 ap to dish out what foggers can do with 3.

3. I didn't say fogger mobility is a massive issue and I'm okay with it in general so okay I accept your point. But just about tide, surely if nothing is there, escaping with tide takes 7 ap since if tide itself has such a poor range why would backwash whatever it is you're swapping with??

Lastly, as I said it doesn't have to be a fogger/osa/feca team to use this strategy, I didn't mean it was exclusive to that setup but it was my own bad wording so I see how you have understood it that way. Also I strongly disagree that it is an 'awful' strategy, and the idea about killing the turrets easily is not even a valid point (imo) because only a bad fogger would summon a tacturret in full range of the enemy team (infact doing so would make the whole strategy pointless as it would literally have to be stuck out in the middle of the map somewhere).

You simply can't just ''wait for the first time they evolve it and then blitz it'', it's a nice idea in theory but again in practice it just doesn't work because you would have to severely compromise yourself to kill it (thus giving the enemy fogger team what they wanted in the first place) or it would just be placed out of range/LoS. I believe the strategy really is a problem, because it allows certain team compositions to have unfairly high synergy.

Cute-Fire|2013-08-26 14:04:59
Noureldin|2013-08-25 23:42:16
1. Many classes have ways to jump away, unbuff or kill the foggernaut before the turret is even level III. Next to that, they can only lock 1 char, so there are 2 others to kill the foggernaut. This shouldn't be to hard since that team has next to no damage.
2. It has a 1-8 range at lvl 6 if I am correct (don't use it that often) so it's that long. If you reduce it to close combat range, it will become useless.

3. If they upgrade lifesaver, their damage is reduced by a lot. Next to that, the foggernaut can't cast it on himself so try to take him out first.
4. I disagree. All their mapcontrol is diagonal (exept for grapnel, but that only be cast on turrets) so they can't do anything when you lock them.


1. The classes that can defend themselves against this strategy are: Iop, Feca, Masq, Fogger, Rogue, Sac, and Xelor. That means that more than half of the classes are susceptible to this strategy including almost all of the 'support' classes. But regardless this strategy simply wouldn't be used on a class that could counter it, and in teamplay there is more likely to be at least one class that can't counter it so the strategy would still work.

Also the odds of you killing a fogger before he uses his turret are probably pretty low since he wouldn't be running straight at the enemy or leaving himself open until he's finished upgrading his turret, and you are forgetting that the fogger has 2 other teammates which means 3 in total. So they are basically 3v2'ing the enemy team for up to the entire fight. Sorry but that is just game-changing on the biggest of scales.

2. Periscope is apparently 0-6 range but it is also boostable, and since +4 range is easily obtainable at least, that means that foggers have 1-10 range with Periscope, and they could easily be half a map away from their turret. This easily outshines sacrier's coop which not only has a lower effective range but also compromises the sac. The fact that foggers can do this with little to no personal risk is silly imo.

3. Umm, no it isn't?? I think that most foggers would probably prefer to upgrade a lifesaver instead of a harpooner, and even if the opposite were true most of a foggers damage comes from the spells they use not the turret.

4. Just because their map control is diagonal doesn't mean they can't be locked?? They can just use tide to get away or they can summon a turret and grapnel. It is practically impossible to lock a fogger.
For the first half:
1. Ok, what about making Osas buffs effect the turrets to the same degree as it would a player, rather than as a summon? (As a fogger who plays with osas somewhat frequently, I wouldn't object to this)
2. Other ways of preventing the heal include blocking the fogger from casting first aid on who they need to heal.
3. Well if I'm surrounded in a way in which I cannot use release, I'm probably still locked if i just tide with a chaferfu. So I would backwash it to put it farther out to swap with (hence, 10AP)

For the second half:

1. This has been covered a lot in this thread if you want to know why this isn't a great strategy, feel free to read it.
2. The foggernaut must forgo their main source of heals/damage (depending on build) to do this, the sacrier can just swap back with a summon the next turn and is usually not in much risk if you take into consideration their larger health pool
3. I won't speak for other foggernauts, but my preference tends towards the harpooner, though i will use whichever will be best to the situation.
4. many classes are hard to lock. Rogues, Iops, cras, pandas, and xelors to name a few (there are more but these are the ones that do it best) and most of them can escape better than foggernauts. The tide scenario costs a fogger 7-10 AP unless they are swapping with an ally (putting them at risk) or swapping with an enemy that didnt know better than to stand where that could work.
The grapnel scenario involves using a turret that has a significant cooldown to work.

Honestly, the only concern here you have mentioned that I would agree with is that osa buffs are too strong on the turrets.
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@ Nerd-Tease, I won't quote else our posts will become too long smile

1. Making Osa buffs affect turrets the same way they affect players would likely not resolve the problem. You would still have 2k+ turrets and the difference between summon and ally Toad is not all that great. You also haven't addressed the fact that Fecas can give turrets unreasonably high amounts of resist which is arguably even worse. It would honestly just be a better idea to prevent the application of buffs to turrets completely (except those granted by the foggernaut themself, and even if this meant reducing the cooldown on the summoning of the turrets), as this would have neither a detrimental effect on both PvM and PvP

2. You said ''other ways'' but you only stated one; that one being line of sight. This is an 'issue' that can affect all healing classes and in actuality considering how strong the heal is itself, it wouldn't be unusual to just see a fogger Tide with whatever is blocking the LoS and first aid their target. Not only that, but this doesn't address the fact that Rescue is still too strong.

I would like to know of some of the ''other ways'' this can be prevented however.

3. I think your first choice would be to use a cawwot in which case it would be 7 ap. And regardless, if a team is focusing so much on locking a fogger they're probably paying for it in some other way (although honestly I am not concerned about this point at all).

4. I had a look at that thread and I am still wondering where the part which tells me that this is not a great strategy is. As far as I can tell, the main points are either to kill the turret, or to kill the fogger, or to cripple the fogger so that he can't cast Periscope. I've already explained however that killing the turret across a map with no LoS is in reality usually not worth it/viable, and killing the fogger before he has fully evolved his turret is not viable for the same reason: he isn't just going to sit out in the open and let you hit him. Crippling him again, will most likely only be partially effective due to line of sight or plain range issues.

5. How exactly are they foregoing their heals or damage to cast a spell on a target? At most they have no output for 1 turn while they get into line of sight, and usually due to Periscope's good range they are not required to venture right into the midst of the opposing team. Yes, sacriers can swap with a summon the turn after, but there are many ways to counter/cripple this: range steal, gravity state, or erosion. It depends on the opposing team composition, but a lot of the time a sac either takes a high amount of damage, or suffers a high amount of erosion to pull the swapping strategy off i.e. personal risk.

They are trading 1 turn of no output for locking out an enemy player for the entire duration of the fight.

6. I would say that if you're depending on your harpooner to do the majority of your damage you're really not maximising your output (but again, this doesn't bother me).

7. You're misunderstanding my point. It was not that Fogger's are the only class able to escape locking, or that they are the best at it - it was simply that they are extremely difficult to lock. No other information or theory was required (this was just a reply to someone telling me that Foggers are useless if you lock them which I disagree with).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you confuse theory with reality a little. Sure, it would be nice if a turret could be killed before it is fully evolved, but a lot of the time that simple isn't going to happen. It isn't just your team vs the enemy team's turret. You have other factors to consider such as the map, your range, the number of enemy players, and the enemy team composition itself.

Ultimately though, I think we are getting somewhere. My point is that the strategy is too strong, not because it is too difficult to prevent, but because it is simply too difficult to free yourself once it has been employed. I would imagine that you at least partially agree with this if you believe that Osa buffs on the turrets make them too strong, in which case I would just ask you to consider whether removing the ability to buff turrets altogether would really be such a detriment? It wouldn't prevent a Fogger from cooping an enemy player (which I have no problem with) but if they tried to use the turret lock strategy, this would allow the player to escape it as opposed to being locked out for the entire duration of the fight.

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Score : 6477

I appreciate the comments being made here, but please keep this conversation to the thread that Nerd pointed out.

These forums are for giving your overall thoughts to the Zenith for summary, with some discussion with us where it is required.

This one aspect of the class has been noted.

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I recently made a foggernaut but before doing so I had seen them in action in kolossium (which I play a lot) and had read through the spells on the Foggernaut Wiki. It was extremely easy for me to pick up. I knew the exact range of the turrets and my spells at all levels and with simple counting I knew the maximum distance I could place my harpooner from my enemies so that it hits them all and the closest distance I can stay so it doesn't hit me. Foggernaut is now one of my favourite classes (among ecaflip and rogue) and I find it extremely efficient and effective.

This however, was not the case for one of my (real life) friends who was new to dofus and started with Foggernaut. He didn't know the Artificial Intelligence priorities and mechanics and often did more harm than good. He's not a bad player and usually helps in fights but for beginners (to the game, not the class), I do think dreadnaut should be a spell acquired earlier.

Apart from that, I'd like to see tacturret more predictable and orderly, as mentioned several times in this thread already.

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I'd like to mention, that in frig 3, all of the maps are designed in such a way, that the harpooner is worse than useless.

The maps are already pretty small to begin with. The harpooner makes a circle of 7 cells unsafe to be near, and a 1700 hp harpooner dies before it can be fully evolved if put near the enemies.

Leaving with very few options.

1. don't use the harpooner
2. get hit by the harpooner
3. waste a second turret to block it off from hitting allies.

with how long it takes to set up a harpooner, and how inconvenient it is to set it up in a "safe" location, most fights in frig 3 I either end up losing out on a potential 1500 damage a turn past turn 3, hitting allies, or wasting otherwise functional turrets.

2 possible fixes (I'm sure someone can think of others):

1. Give dreadnaut an AoE. This shouldn't be too hard to do considering rogues get an AoE for kaboom, and that even buffs their allies.
2. Reduce the range of non targeted attacks from the harpooner. (to like 5?)

The second of these fixes would also help lower level foggernauts who will not have as much mp to maintain their distance from the harpooner.

Also, after reaching 200, and taking a bit of time to reflect on the journey here, I retract my statement about lower levels being able to avoid the harpooner's attacks. If I'm having trouble still now (albeit only on some maps) , a lower level character on a map just as crowded would have it worse. Dreadnaut would make sense to be a lower level spell, possibly swapping it as the class spell and making the level 100 spell breakwater.

As for balance between the different elemental branches,

Strength
They have a ranged attack that can be used more than once per target (chance gets 1 per target here, and every intel spell has less range or more limitations with the same range as leek pie)
In addition, strength has a pretty strong attack combo up close Trident + backwash is an extremely potent combo. It also synergizes well with any other class that has access to pushback.

Chance
boasts the highest raw damage output the class has.
high damage ranged spell

Intelligence
Lowest damage of all 3 of the builds.
Highly restricted healing. (1 per target/turn; 2/per turn)
Oh yeah and -45 damage (after 3 hits with fire) (The devs have even admitted this (-dmg) isn't even attractive)

Looking at all of this, If you consider how strength and chance both still benefit from the lifesaver, and all 3 builds benefit equally from the harpooner, you can see that the intel build isn't as attractive.

The only reason I haven't switched builds at this point is I have invested too much into my gear at this point.

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Score : 4519

Speaking for myself, I started as an int Foggernaut and switched to str at level 199. The only high level cha Foggernauts I saw on my server either switched element, or stopped playing. I still see a couple int Foggernauts. Note that the main way I get to play with/against other Foggernauts is through Kolossium, and the popularity of builds in PvM might be different.

Str Foggernauts have the most flexible attack options: Trident for solid short, range damage, Anchor for long range, low cost damage, Trident + pushback is a very effective counter for damage reduction, and pushback damage bonus allows bypassing elemental resistances through all pushback spells. I would say that this build has the highest damage output without using Harpooner, which is a very strong advantage in both PvP and PvM. At the same time, it can also utilize Harpooner better than the cha build at least, because Anchor can be cast 3 times a turn and has 1 more range than Periscope. Scaphander benefits the str-pushback build the most, because it will boost Backwash's direct damage, the pushback damage, AND Trident's addon damage.

Int Foggernauts can use Vapour to activate Harpooner and damage enemies at the same time which increases their damage efficiency, but this is situational. The also cannot activate Harpooner from long range. Vapour's AoE can be a surprise factor which sometimes allows the Foggernaut to deal damage to unprepared enemies. With the increase in class spell base damages and the high damage of monsters, Surge's -damage effect becomes rather insignificant in high level PvP and PvM. Int Foggernauts have an advantage in their ability to heal alone with First Aid. It's also rare to find the combination of a healer with a fire HP steal spell, even though Pilfer is somewhat weak.

Cha Foggernauts have slightly higher direct base damages, but it falls short on damage output compared to the str build if you consider Trident's effect. Periscope's +3 range bonus at level 6 is very appealing, but unfortunately it is not as useful for the cha build as it is for the str build. This build is most powerful at short range, but if locked, the only damage spell available is the 1-cast-per-target Periscope. While it may be said that Scaphander favors the str build, and First Aid favors the int build, there is no similar support spell in the Foggernaut arsenal which particularly helps the cha build. The cha build also doesn't have triggered effects like Trident or Surge. I think addressing these shortcomings would make the cha build more balanced, but in the mean time it's also a concern to keep the Foggernaut class balanced compared to other classes.

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Score : 6477

I am Int/Str currently building up my Chance for a tri-Fogger.

I was under the impression from the start that the Chance Fogger was more intended for hybrid than as a solo build.
However Periscope later worked for activating the Harp and thus made me think otherwise.

The main deal with Chance would be the linear restrictions save for Periscope which has cast restrictions.

Having the highest base damage makes it the best element to hybrid into as your %s are more meaningful.

Torrent is actually a really cool spell which adds utility to the Water Fogger, however I find it works best for aiding my range restricted Int attacks.
It also seems somewhat out of place due to the linear nature of Froth and Periscope out ranges anyways.

Trident teams well with Froth.

The higher damage for a Water Fogger seems to be in play for AP economy.
One attack hits harder allowing for other AP to be used for map manipulation with say, Tide, or to augment your Tact.

Int and Str have the least synergy of the builds, Int offering healing and limited AoE (Water offering the latter) and Str offering Range.

I have always advocated for Dreadnaut to be the class spell or at least a lower level one.

I don't really agree that Scaph favors the Str build over others.
The Str build is a damage oriented build, so it does benefit that one well, however the Int build is a good support build which Scaph aids superbly.
Chance has pushback and nice damage, so I see an even dispersal here.

I feel that Torrent and the Magnatron State need to be adjusted as I have previously mentioned.
Periscope activating Magnatron, which requires range alteration/stage, and Torrent activating the 'Periscope' State would be ideal.

The Intel build was the best fit for a -Damage Malus as they require closer range and along with Pilfer this offers a moderate degree of survival capacity.
However the diagonal spells are quite tactical in nature.
In some senses they are the hardest to use as MP and positioning is key.
Backwash and Torrent along with Tide, all illustrate this rather well.

It is for this reason that I feel Pilfer is out of place.
Were the range or damage greater than it is I could see this diagonal restriction as fitting, take Aggressive Bramble as a loose guide here.

However the Intel build offers the least in manipulation and direct tactical effects which makes this particular restriction stand out as somewhat quizzical.

The tactical benefit here is the healing of the caster, which your Saver is better at and more suited for.

For most Int Foggers the choice is Pilfer for more damage+healing or Leek Pie to mitigate my range issues somewhat.

The more experienced and adapted Fogger will go for Pilfer in my opinion, where as the newer adjusting player has a clear advantage by just going Leek/Scaph.

In the end however, the Fogger is well off for now, with others more deserving of attention.

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Score : 13424
Electricotter|2013-11-17 21:29:22
I am Int/Str currently building up my Chance for a tri-Fogger.

I was under the impression from the start that the Chance Fogger was more intended for hybrid than as a solo build.
However Periscope later worked for activating the Harp and thus made me think otherwise.

The main deal with Chance would be the linear restrictions save for Periscope which has cast restrictions.

Having the highest base damage makes it the best element to hybrid into as your %s are more meaningful.

Torrent is actually a really cool spell which adds utility to the Water Fogger, however I find it works best for aiding my range restricted Int attacks.
It also seems somewhat out of place due to the linear nature of Froth and Periscope out ranges anyways.

Trident teams well with Froth.

The higher damage for a Water Fogger seems to be in play for AP economy.
One attack hits harder allowing for other AP to be used for map manipulation with say, Tide, or to augment your Tact.

Int and Str have the least synergy of the builds, Int offering healing and limited AoE (Water offering the latter) and Str offering Range.

I have always advocated for Dreadnaut to be the class spell or at least a lower level one.

I don't really agree that Scaph favors the Str build over others.
The Str build is a damage oriented build, so it does benefit that one well, however the Int build is a good support build which Scaph aids superbly.
Chance has pushback and nice damage, so I see an even dispersal here.

I feel that Torrent and the Magnatron State need to be adjusted as I have previously mentioned.
Periscope activating Magnatron, which requires range alteration/stage, and Torrent activating the 'Periscope' State would be ideal.

The Intel build was the best fit for a -Damage Malus as they require closer range and along with Pilfer this offers a moderate degree of survival capacity.
However the diagonal spells are quite tactical in nature.
In some senses they are the hardest to use as MP and positioning is key.
Backwash and Torrent along with Tide, all illustrate this rather well.

It is for this reason that I feel Pilfer is out of place.
Were the range or damage greater than it is I could see this diagonal restriction as fitting, take Aggressive Bramble as a loose guide here.

However the Intel build offers the least in manipulation and direct tactical effects which makes this particular restriction stand out as somewhat quizzical.

The tactical benefit here is the healing of the caster, which your Saver is better at and more suited for.

For most Int Foggers the choice is Pilfer for more damage+healing or Leek Pie to mitigate my range issues somewhat.

The more experienced and adapted Fogger will go for Pilfer in my opinion, where as the newer adjusting player has a clear advantage by just going Leek/Scaph.

In the end however, the Fogger is well off for now, with others more deserving of attention.

Ok, to put the pilfer vs leek pie debate to rest. As an intel fog, you need both. you can get by with just one of them, though I wouldn't recommend attempting it.
lets see...anywhere from an 8AP to a 14AP (assumes 12AP with an AP buff) both pilfer and leek pie make the attack rotation, and even fit well into the defensive rotation as well.

(EDIT: somehow this didn't make the first post even though I typed it up, updated within minutes of posting)
While I would love to be able to hit at the same distance with pilfer as I can now without it being diagonal cast only, It is a quite potent spell. In a planned setup that I am coming close to accomplishing, I am currently looking at over 420 damage on 0 % res as the lowest non-crit roll. Granted, this is almost completely frig 3 pieces complete with exos, overmages, and multiple dofuses, but I cannot advocate for just outright letting go of the diagonal cast limit.
(End of edited portion)

As for intel having the least synergy with other builds, yes I would have to agree. Quick question: What is the point of the -15 damage triggered only stacking 3 times? There is no team synergy there, as I will cover that myself with surge + ambush (Implied harpooner hit) So why not just outright -45 damage?

What I'm wondering, is there a place for this to be changed to be a more attractive bonus to using surge?

What about triggered 5% erosion (same trigger, same stack limit as current, no higher amount on crit, 5% is the level 5/6 version, though at level 5 it only stacks twice) That's just an offhanded example, though I'm not even sure it is a good idea to give a class this versatile an erosion role as well. Possibly something actually useful though (or remove the damage malus and give the intel foggers a direct attack on par with the other 2 builds rolleyes )

Then again, like it has already been said, the fogger needs less adjustments than say the feca, xelor, sacrier, or even (according to some people) the Iop.
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Score : 2

--wrong account--

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Score : 13424

Ok, so the foggernauts are in a pretty good place from a balancing standpoint in my opinion, though I do have a handful of complaints

  • Monsters being able to swap the turrets (see CB and Barbacles)
  • They can do this to them even if the unmovable state from salt armor is on the turrets.
  • The turrets are somewhat non-deterministic in their actions
  • If I have a fully evolved harpooner, and I ambush someone, it should attack them without regard for the consequences as it is a machine that is being given an instruction. (see the harpooner wont ambush someone because there is an effect that will damage an ally, yet it has no problem shooting that ally itself)
  • Same with the lifesaver and first aid.
 
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Score : 2275

Hi

Seeing at test server the harpooner gets an unbewitchment ability. I wonder wether this will cause an inbalance between power and usefullness between the choice of turrets to evolve. The harpooner doesnt only do damage but gets a secondary ability. While the other turrets keep owning one. This will make harpooner to be chosen more often than other turrets. Giving fogger less variety of playstyles.
Any seconadry abilities added to the other turrets, would balance them,.ie Tacturret would add gravity state on enemies and lifesaver would add range armor buff to allies.

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Score : 6161

Technically, tacturret has 3 functions: push, pull and swap. It can also deal damage and activate trident's poison. Also, harpooner may have a new function, but it keeps being the riskier turret to use, since it can help enemies killing you, and may lock you out of a big portion of the map. So...I think there's a little more to think about than just that.

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