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Iop Balancing Thread

By Relious - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - February 14, 2013, 02:48:20

Since 2.10 is out on the beta server, the Zenith is gathering feedback from our community with respect to the changes. We would like to encourage you to visit the feedback thread here: Click here

If you are dissatisfied with a change, please provide your reasoning behind it. If you approve of a change, please tell us why you approve.

Thanks in advance! We'll do our best to gather your feedback and provide a solid response to the Devs.

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The 2.10 didn't really balance the 3 different elemental builds, since most of the new spells are more like a hindrance for Agility based Iops mainly.

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Score : 6477

Would you mind elaborating in your statement please?

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Right, the update actually made Iops rely only in close combat which helped them to find their role in the game. But the recent updates actually changed Strength and Intelligence based Iops for the better, while leaving the Agility ones behind. First of all Agility Iops have less offensive spells than the 2 other builds and have lost many buffs. Duel,Friction and Poutch are kind of useless for them since they don't need to lock their opponent, as Strength and Intelligence Iops do in order to cast Iop's Wrath or Sword of Fate. Don't you think they need at least one more offensive spell and buffs instead?

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Score : 6161
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 00:49:45
Right, the update actually made Iops rely only in close combat which helped them to find their role in the game. But the recent updates actually changed Strength and Intelligence based Iops for the better, while leaving the Agility ones behind. First of all Agility Iops have less offensive spells than the 2 other builds and have lost many buffs. Duel,Friction and Poutch are kind of useless for them since they don't need to lock their opponent, as Strength and Intelligence Iops do in order to cast Iop's Wrath or Sword of Fate. Don't you think they need at least one more offensive spell and buffs instead?
Sword of judgement and divine sword were buffed. They did not lose any buffs, as divine+power are better than the old +damage buffs (except when counting mutilation, and you got to be kidding me if you think mutilation is better than the OP precipitation). Poutch is great when dealing AoE damage, because it improves your damage in an AoE arround the target. Also, I wouldn't use poutch when close to targets...

But yeah, agi could use some changes. It is weaker in comparison to the other two iop builds, but it is still a very good build (better than manhy other classes "main" builds...), so it should be done carefully.
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Score : 6477

I feel that having less attacks opens them up for leveling more of their other spells, such as Friction and Poutch.

Duel gives them access to Gravity, which makes them better at Locking.

Duel also gives equal access to Air damage to all Iops however, good for damage versatility, but making any Iop able to inflict Air damage (though much lower than a dedicated Agi build/hybrid).

Divine, Celestial, and Judgement are all rather good attacks, but the lower number of spells and the caps make Agility a good hybrid build.

Divine/Judgement synergy alone is a great asset for the Iop though.

I feel the Agility Iop really shines with the Leader role.
Divine to increase ally damage, Jumping in to Lock the main target, Brokle to really support focused fire.

That is how I see the Agi Iop.

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Score : 4519

I also feel agi Iops are behind str and int ones after recent updates. Str and int have options for long/medium range (sword of iop, cut), AoE (sword of iop, destructive sword, cut), concentrated damage (pressure, concentration, iop's wrath, strengthstorm, sword of fate), and "finisher" moves (iop's wrath, sword of fate). Agi basically has AoE which is not much of a specialty any more. It could be said that they are less hindered by obstacles with non-line-of-sight (sword of judgment) and AoE (celestial sword, divine sword) attacks, but with jump, blow and intimidation, obstacles tend not to be a problem for other iop builds either.

In Kolossium, agi Iops have much lower ability to counter healing and shielded opponents. In PvM this may be a smaller disadvantage, but I feel str and int builds' versatility in the areas mentioned above will still outshine agi Iops.

Agi iops being more able to invest points in support spells (and Moon Hammer) is a good point, but I don't think this is enough, or a good way to balance them.

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Score : 1798

i dont think agi iops are weaker than str or int.

They have 3 spells (int and str iops have 4 damage damage spells)

celestial sword
devine sword
sword of judgement

And they share the same buffs.

Agi iops are fine as they are now. If something should chance it would be that celestial sword cant suicide anymore.

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Score : 625
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 01:10:53
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 00:49:45
Right, the update actually made Iops rely only in close combat which helped them to find their role in the game. But the recent updates actually changed Strength and Intelligence based Iops for the better, while leaving the Agility ones behind. First of all Agility Iops have less offensive spells than the 2 other builds and have lost many buffs. Duel,Friction and Poutch are kind of useless for them since they don't need to lock their opponent, as Strength and Intelligence Iops do in order to cast Iop's Wrath or Sword of Fate. Don't you think they need at least one more offensive spell and buffs instead?
Sword of judgement and divine sword were buffed. They did not lose any buffs, as divine+power are better than the old +damage buffs (except when counting mutilation, and you got to be kidding me if you think mutilation is better than the OP precipitation). Poutch is great when dealing AoE damage, because it improves your damage in an AoE arround the target. Also, I wouldn't use poutch when close to targets...

But yeah, agi could use some changes. It is weaker in comparison to the other two iop builds, but it is still a very good build (better than manhy other classes "main" builds...), so it should be done carefully.
Precipitation isn't overpowered at all. While it benefits Iops with bonus AP, it decreases them the turn after. Agi Iops are only weak under some certain circumstances (in Kolossium for example vs a team with healing (eni/osa) and defense providing abilities (feca/masq) aren't that useful, while strength/intelligence Iops are able to deal massive damage with wrath/fate, agi Iops can only use their offensive spells to gradually reduce their opponent's HP). The buffs are fine but I think that some spells(like the ones I mentioned before) don't really benefit them as much as they do benefit str/int Iops.
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Score : 6161
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 13:28:16
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 01:10:53
Precipitation isn't overpowered at all. While it benefits Iops with bonus AP, it decreases them the turn after. Agi Iops are only weak under some certain circumstances (in Kolossium for example vs a team with healing (eni/osa) and defense providing abilities (feca/masq) aren't that useful, while strength/intelligence Iops are able to deal massive damage with wrath/fate, agi Iops can only use their offensive spells to gradually reduce their opponent's HP). The buffs are fine but I think that some spells(like the ones I mentioned before) don't really benefit them as much as they do benefit str/int Iops.
So what if it decreases your AP after? In a lot of cases, there is no after. Also, if you know how to use it, you will dish out a LOT more damage (due to new power duration) and the cooldown is very, VERY short. I'm not saying the AP buff should be nerfed, but that cooldown is too short for a spell that should be used as a last resort of sorts or as a finalization.

Agi is able to do massive damage in AoE and buff allies WHILE hitting enemies. Also, they can lock. They don't have single target nuke damage, sure, but they have strong AoE damage. Agi iops are the worst comparatively with other iop builds, and that should be fixed, but in comparison with other classes, looking at all builds, they are good. Especially being an off-build. Also, don't forget hybrids. They have to be taken in consideration before any changes are made. And making agi iops better can make the class unbalanced. As I said, they could use some changes, but this has to be made carefully.
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Score : 625
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 14:36:25
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 13:28:16
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 01:10:53
Precipitation isn't overpowered at all. While it benefits Iops with bonus AP, it decreases them the turn after. Agi Iops are only weak under some certain circumstances (in Kolossium for example vs a team with healing (eni/osa) and defense providing abilities (feca/masq) aren't that useful, while strength/intelligence Iops are able to deal massive damage with wrath/fate, agi Iops can only use their offensive spells to gradually reduce their opponent's HP). The buffs are fine but I think that some spells(like the ones I mentioned before) don't really benefit them as much as they do benefit str/int Iops.
So what if it decreases your AP after? In a lot of cases, there is no after. Also, if you know how to use it, you will dish out a LOT more damage (due to new power duration) and the cooldown is very, VERY short. I'm not saying the AP buff should be nerfed, but that cooldown is too short for a spell that should be used as a last resort of sorts or as a finalization.

Agi is able to do massive damage in AoE and buff allies WHILE hitting enemies. Also, they can lock. They don't have single target nuke damage, sure, but they have strong AoE damage. Agi iops are the worst comparatively with other iop builds, and that should be fixed, but in comparison with other classes, looking at all builds, they are good. Especially being an off-build. Also, don't forget hybrids. They have to be taken in consideration before any changes are made. And making agi iops better can make the class unbalanced. As I said, they could use some changes, but this has to be made carefully.
Like you said there is no after, which means you use it before finishing an opponent or slightly before finishing him of. When you manage to get close and deal close combat damage it's pretty much over, the use of Precipitation just allows you to finish it faster. It's practically the same thing... 2 turns cooldown.... 2 turns are enough for a Iop to finish his target once he's managed to get closer without using the spell again. Don't tell me some would use it beforehand, because that's just silly. I agree with you about Hybrid builds, but considering the pure Agility Iops I think they're a bit behind.
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Score : 6161
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 14:51:13
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 14:36:25
Like you said there is no after, which means you use it before finishing an opponent or slightly before finishing him of. When you manage to get close and deal close combat damage it's pretty much over, the use of Precipitation just allows you to finish it faster. It's practically the same thing... 2 turns cooldown.... 2 turns are enough for a Iop to finish his target once he's managed to get closer without using the spell again. Don't tell me some would use it beforehand, because that's just silly. I agree with you about Hybrid builds, but considering the pure Agility Iops I think they're a bit behind.
You do realize that finishing faster = you take less damage = it is easier for you NOT to die, right? How many battles I would have lost if it wasn't for precipitation? Especially since I built my iop so that the penalty of precipitation doesn't bother me, with the debuff coinciding with wrath (leaving me with the exact amount I need to use wrath)? And I know a lot of iops that use it every time it is available.

And as I said, agility is weaker than the other 2 builds. But if you buff agi iops, you buff hybrid iops too, and iops are already very powerful.

A buff that could be done: celestial sword could affect only enemies. This would help a lot and make agi iops popular choices for parties, as they would be able to do high AoE damage surrounding the party tank (or itself). But that's it...if you look closer, all agility spells are very, VERY good. AoE damage+great damage buff that affects allies for 3 AP? Great AoE damage? Strong single target damage with potential of life steal? There is not much to do here that wouldn't be unbalanced.
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Score : 625
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 16:30:04
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 14:51:13
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 14:36:25
Like you said there is no after, which means you use it before finishing an opponent or slightly before finishing him of. When you manage to get close and deal close combat damage it's pretty much over, the use of Precipitation just allows you to finish it faster. It's practically the same thing... 2 turns cooldown.... 2 turns are enough for a Iop to finish his target once he's managed to get closer without using the spell again. Don't tell me some would use it beforehand, because that's just silly. I agree with you about Hybrid builds, but considering the pure Agility Iops I think they're a bit behind.
You do realize that finishing faster = you take less damage = it is easier for you NOT to die, right? How many battles I would have lost if it wasn't for precipitation? Especially since I built my iop so that the penalty of precipitation doesn't bother me, with the debuff coinciding with wrath (leaving me with the exact amount I need to use wrath)? And I know a lot of iops that use it every time it is available.

And as I said, agility is weaker than the other 2 builds. But if you buff agi iops, you buff hybrid iops too, and iops are already very powerful.

A buff that could be done: celestial sword could affect only enemies. This would help a lot and make agi iops popular choices for parties, as they would be able to do high AoE damage surrounding the party tank (or itself). But that's it...if you look closer, all agility spells are very, VERY good. AoE damage+great damage buff that affects allies for 3 AP? Great AoE damage? Strong single target damage with potential of life steal? There is not much to do here that wouldn't be unbalanced.
That's only your personal experience though. I never used Precipitation more than 2 times in PvP for example, it's not like Iops are bound to use it...
Iops use Precipitation every time it is available? What for ? And if so the enemy got the advantage since those Iops most likely jump closer in order to land a hit with SoI or Cut. How does it benefit you if you use it when you're not close to your target? And don't tell me they use it when they're near their target, because once you get close you're supposed to end it in 2-3 turns. So where's the abuse of Precipitation there? What you mention is just spamming of the spell which actually weakens the Iop if he's far away from his target...
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Score : 6161
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 18:58:07
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 16:30:04
That's only your personal experience though. I never used Precipitation more than 2 times in PvP for example, it's not like Iops are bound to use it...
Iops use Precipitation every time it is available? What for ? And if so the enemy got the advantage since those Iops most likely jump closer in order to land a hit with SoI or Cut. How does it benefit you if you use it when you're not close to your target? And don't tell me they use it when they're near their target, because once you get close you're supposed to end it in 2-3 turns. So where's the abuse of Precipitation there? What you mention is just spamming of the spell which actually weakens the Iop if he's far away from his target...
Actually, I only use precipitation more than once/fight against xellor dopple because I have to kill him from a distance (as PoX+counter+my multiple damages in each turn = I'm dead long before I can kill him...), and use it mostly for 2xSoI+jump. What I said is that other people use it a lot. I don't know why they do that, but I can see how it can be used strategically and frequently (mainly to use friction, power and poutch to their full extent). And I almost always get close to my targets by the second turn (keep in mind that I don't PvP, so I'm talking mostly about PvM here, though I know how to use the map to limit my enemies movements). Also, if you don't get close enough to hit with SoI (6 range + 3 AoE)+jump (6 range)+ you 5~6 MP, something is wrong there =p

Anyway...I can do almost the same damage with 5 AP in my iop than with 9 AP in my ecaflip that is 60 levels stronger. Iop's damage is very high (duh), the costs of the spells are very low, and with precipitation I can do so much more damage that it is ridiculous. Iops can take 50%+ hp of other character at the same level with 10 AP (without counting resistance whores, that is VERY unbalanced in the game, but it's another story), and with precipitation, they can almost kill them in one turn...and that is counting ONLY pressure and concentration. Precipitation alone is not overpowered, but in conjunction with other iop spells, it is so easy to abuse.

Precipitation should have 6 cooldown, IMO. This way, it would be still very good, still support you when you need it, but not as easy to abuse. And wouldn't make difference for the people that don't abuse it.
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Score : 625
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 19:30:57
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 18:58:07
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 16:30:04
That's only your personal experience though. I never used Precipitation more than 2 times in PvP for example, it's not like Iops are bound to use it...
Iops use Precipitation every time it is available? What for ? And if so the enemy got the advantage since those Iops most likely jump closer in order to land a hit with SoI or Cut. How does it benefit you if you use it when you're not close to your target? And don't tell me they use it when they're near their target, because once you get close you're supposed to end it in 2-3 turns. So where's the abuse of Precipitation there? What you mention is just spamming of the spell which actually weakens the Iop if he's far away from his target...
Actually, I only use precipitation more than once/fight against xellor dopple because I have to kill him from a distance (as PoX+counter+my multiple damages in each turn = I'm dead long before I can kill him...), and use it mostly for 2xSoI+jump. What I said is that other people use it a lot. I don't know why they do that, but I can see how it can be used strategically and frequently (mainly to use friction, power and poutch to their full extent). And I almost always get close to my targets by the second turn (keep in mind that I don't PvP, so I'm talking mostly about PvM here, though I know how to use the map to limit my enemies movements). Also, if you don't get close enough to hit with SoI (6 range + 3 AoE)+jump (6 range)+ you 5~6 MP, something is wrong there =p

Anyway...I can do almost the same damage with 5 AP in my iop than with 9 AP in my ecaflip that is 60 levels stronger. Iop's damage is very high (duh), the costs of the spells are very low, and with precipitation I can do so much more damage that it is ridiculous. Iops can take 50%+ hp of other character at the same level with 10 AP (without counting resistance whores, that is VERY unbalanced in the game, but it's another story), and with precipitation, they can almost kill them in one turn...and that is counting ONLY pressure and concentration. Precipitation alone is not overpowered, but in conjunction with other iop spells, it is so easy to abuse.

Precipitation should have 6 cooldown, IMO. This way, it would be still very good, still support you when you need it, but not as easy to abuse. And wouldn't make difference for the people that don't abuse it.
So you start a fight next to a Cra? Right and probably you wrath him in the first turn as well I guess? Riiight... 1 hit K.O. Do you take disciples by the way?
You also have a problem killing a dopple.. but it's me the one who's got problem dealing with enemies who hit from distance, alright. ( What's the matter of Precipitation being abused in PvM? And you reach a monster in 2 turns using Jump? Seriously, I'm shaken.) Now let's get serious, It's not hard to deal with ranged enemies and it's not Precipitation that allows you to beat them. For God's sake it's just adding to your AP, that doesn't mean you kill your enemy based on Precipitation. Just how many times do I have to say it? I'm talking about PvP and you start mentioning PvM? How can those 2 be related..? The cooldown is fine, the spell is fine don't make me repeat myself it's really tiring.
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Score : 6161
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 19:48:07
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 19:30:57
So you start a fight next to a Cra? Right and probably you wrath him in the first turn as well I guess? Riiight... 1 hit K.O. Do you take disciples by the way?
You also have a problem killing a dopple.. but it's me the one who's got problem dealing with enemies who hit from distance, alright. ( What's the matter of Precipitation being abused in PvM? And you reach a monster in 2 turns using Jump? Seriously, I'm shaken.) Now let's get serious, It's not hard to deal with ranged enemies and it's not Precipitation that allows you to beat them. For God's sake it's just adding to your AP, that doesn't mean you kill your enemy based on Precipitation. Just how many times do I have to say it? I'm talking about PvP and you start mentioning PvM? How can those 2 be related..? The cooldown is fine, the spell is fine don't make me repeat myself it's really tiring.
First, read again: no PvP. Second, I don't remember the kolo maps, but normal maps usually have many ways of starting close to your enemies. Third, if you are in kolo, you have allies to help you getting closer, and it is even easier to get close to someone due to the multiple distractions they have to face. Fourth, who said anything about one hit KO's?

I have a problem killing xellor dopple only due to counter (because I usually hit 3~4 times at one turn, which means 400 damage that I take, +500 from PoX, and I'm wearing a transition set, my vitality is not good ATM). And this thread is a discussion about the GAME balance, not PvP balance. PvM matters as much as PvP. Most +AP spells were nerfed due to PvM, for instance. I am saying what I see and what I fell when playing as a iop. As someone that plays with every class and experienced all classes (this doesn't make me better or worse, just neutral to all classes, and with a little better base for comparison), I feel that precipitation is easy to abuse.

Remember, that is my OPINION, and I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. And if you don't want to "repeat yourself", fine, don't answer me. You don't need to. But you have not convinced me, and my opinion stays the same. I am stubborn, but if you prove me wrong, I'll shut up and stop talking. Until then, my point stands.

@Electricotter, there is no AP gain, but precipitation makes other spells that have short duration, like power, brokle, poutch, friction, and others more potent. And bosses may not complain about things, but unbalanced classes in PvM make these classes more popular in detriment of other classes, which make other classes unpopular, unused and people generally don't accept some classes in their parties. Maybe it is just that I have really bad luck and see a lot of jerks, but it is so constant that I doubt it is just my bad luck.

And I am not saying iops are OP, nerf them so I can win against them. I OWN a iop, that would be detrimental. I just think the class is slightly unbalanced (precipitation and concentration being the main culprits, and I just think they need little tweaks).
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Score : 6477

Precipitation gives NO net gain.
Stim gives AP.
High Energy Shot gives AP.
Devotion gives AP.

Smell does NOT give AP.
Precipitation does NOT give AP.

Precipitation has 2 primary purposes:

  • Counter AP loss
  • Spike damage
If taken down to 2+ AP Precipitation allows for the Iop to return lost AP.
This allows the Iop to counter damage mitigation via AP loss. A spell that is very fitting for the Iop.

If in need of a damage spike, usually used as wrap up damage, the Iop can utilize this spell.

People see +6 AP and immediately think it is overpowered, but this requires a steep sacrifice.
Dungeon bosses don't cry "nerf Iop plz as he kills wit Percip b4 he takes the AP!"

Players do.

In either case, there is NO gain of AP.
It has been noted that people don't really understand how Precipitation works and that many find it to be OP.

Perhaps it needs to give 4 or 5AP instead of 6, but I personally think it is fine as is.

However this discussion is over.

Take it to AM's, the Precipitation thread in the Suggestion forums, or to the Iop subforum.
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Score : 3684

Over already? This was pretty quick if you compare to the others, we only had one person that was telling to be careful since any changes to help the agility build may end buffing the other builds, which kinda lead the conversation to Precipitation, which is a fact of balancing Iops, shouldn't this discussion last a bit longer?

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Score : 625

It's pointless trying to convince people who don't even mind reading you think.

Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 20:31:35
NecroGreg|2013-04-20 19:48:07
Lynn-Reiginleif|2013-04-20 19:30:57
So you start a fight next to a Cra? Right and probably you wrath him in the first turn as well I guess? Riiight... 1 hit K.O. Do you take disciples by the way?
You also have a problem killing a dopple.. but it's me the one who's got problem dealing with enemies who hit from distance, alright. ( What's the matter of Precipitation being abused in PvM? And you reach a monster in 2 turns using Jump? Seriously, I'm shaken.) Now let's get serious, It's not hard to deal with ranged enemies and it's not Precipitation that allows you to beat them. For God's sake it's just adding to your AP, that doesn't mean you kill your enemy based on Precipitation. Just how many times do I have to say it? I'm talking about PvP and you start mentioning PvM? How can those 2 be related..? The cooldown is fine, the spell is fine don't make me repeat myself it's really tiring.
First, read again: no PvP. Second, I don't remember the kolo maps, but normal maps usually have many ways of starting close to your enemies. Third, if you are in kolo, you have allies to help you getting closer, and it is even easier to get close to someone due to the multiple distractions they have to face. Fourth, who said anything about one hit KO's?

I have a problem killing xellor dopple only due to counter (because I usually hit 3~4 times at one turn, which means 400 damage that I take, +500 from PoX, and I'm wearing a transition set, my vitality is not good ATM). And this thread is a discussion about the GAME balance, not PvP balance. PvM matters as much as PvP. Most +AP spells were nerfed due to PvM, for instance. I am saying what I see and what I fell when playing as a iop. As someone that plays with every class and experienced all classes (this doesn't make me better or worse, just neutral to all classes, and with a little better base for comparison), I feel that precipitation is easy to abuse.

Remember, that is my OPINION, and I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me. And if you don't want to "repeat yourself", fine, don't answer me. You don't need to. But you have not convinced me, and my opinion stays the same. I am stubborn, but if you prove me wrong, I'll shut up and stop talking. Until then, my point stands.

@Electricotter, there is no AP gain, but precipitation makes other spells that have short duration, like power, brokle, poutch, friction, and others more potent. And bosses may not complain about things, but unbalanced classes in PvM make these classes more popular in detriment of other classes, which make other classes unpopular, unused and people generally don't accept some classes in their parties. Maybe it is just that I have really bad luck and see a lot of jerks, but it is so constant that I doubt it is just my bad luck.

And I am not saying iops are OP, nerf them so I can win against them. I OWN a iop, that would be detrimental. I just think the class is slightly unbalanced (precipitation and concentration being the main culprits, and I just think they need little tweaks).
Sharing your personal experiences doesn't mean that ANY Iop sees it the same way (I don't get why it's too hard for you to understand that). What I'm trying to say is that you can't just relate PvP with PvM unless you're killing piwis and call that PvP. Once again you don't need Precipitation to kill somebody. Precipitation just allows you to finish the fight faster while it reduces your AP at the next turn making the Iop quite vulnerable when facing tough opponents. The fact that you see some idiots abusing a spell doesn't mean that every Iop on earth relies on that spell alone. You can't combine Precipitation and Concentration when you're far, that can only happen once you've reached your opponent. Precipitation's extra AP don't make the Iop able to open Heaven's doors and gain magic powers or something, it's just a spell with advantages and disadvantages. Also, you don't win a fight just because of it. If you're skilled enough you don't need it to make the other short duration spells like the ones you mention be more potent. Since when people don't accept some certain classes in their groups..? No offense but you probably need a proper set.
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What I am talking about being over is the back and forth between Lynn and Necro.

Precipitation requires very little feedback and is much more straight forward than people seem to grasp.
That is the main point which will be made for this spell as said above.

The conversation between Lynn and Necro needs to go to AM or taken somewhere else as it is getting heated and too personal.

Click here
Click here
These threads should be revisited.
The second is, at heart, related to feedback in general, despite having 2.10 in the title.

Keep in mind that I am not saying anyone was/is directly out of line, I would just prefer to end the situation before it gets to be.

I would also like to point out that while some discussion is good and encouraged, overall these Zenith threads are for final statements.
Player to player discussion is better had on the suggestions, general, and class sections of the forums.

Take the fruits of those discussions here.

We at the Zenith will ask questions, address concerns, and probe further as needed.

If you disagree with what a player posts, you can simply talk about X spell or Y tactic from your own experience and reasoning.
Not to mention clicking a green smile for things you agree with and a Red frown for those you don't.

That is the heart of this section.
It is a quick reference so we can summarize and review without having pages of fruitless dialogue which is rampant in many threads as of now.

As this particular thread is rather new and clean, I would like it to stay that way.

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