FR EN DE ES IT PT
Browse forums 
Ankama Trackers

Iop Balancing Thread

By Relious - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - February 14, 2013, 02:48:20
Reactions 292
Score : 6161

The solution to deviating iop would be to give effects that help with offense. Like divine buffs damage. So, say, if judgement gave a debuff that deals extra lifesteal damage every time someone hits that target, or celestial buffed resistances on allies in the AoE. Stuff like that would keep iops at a damaging role, but would trade the spike damage of wrath/fate for a more supportive and defensive role.

0 0
Reply
Score : 108

ImO if a class were to be nerfed next, it should be the Iop.

Indeed, the Iop's almost only purpose is to deal high damage and he is supposed to be the best damage dealing class in the game. Unfortunately, the damage is just way too high. Precipitation taken into account and eventually some buffs, a glass cannon version can easily deal 3-5k from turn 1 on, so this isn't even with wrath. In PvM in a standard team of 3-5 players, it becomes a piece of cake to kill certain monsters on turn one just by casting further damage spells on it and/or buffing/positioning the Iop.

You could come up with more, but you can as well easily see their superiority. On my small server, I know some successful multi-accounters whose main character is - what a surprise - an Iop. On some occasions, I saw other teams on YouTube or other platforms, and I'd guess that about 90% of PvM teams include an Iop. At this point, you don't really need to explain that the class is far ahead compared to some other classes, if it's not simply the central class of the game in PvM.

This might be more relative in PvP, though I wouldn't fully accept the argument that the Iop is countered easily. It's obvious that MP reduction, pushing, gravity and other methods can easily tame an Iop. However, while there are the opponents that weaken the Iop, there are also the allies that can easily neutralize that (pulling opponents to the Iop, buffing MP or positioning the Iop, etc).

____

Now I won't really come up with precise change suggestions since I never used an Iop, but at least name the spells that need a change the most ImO.

Sword of Iop: A mid-ranged spell that hits incredibly solid for a class that's supposed to focus on close range. In 11/6 gear and an AP buff (alternatively Precipitation) you can use it twice and retreat with Jump, thus using it at 10+ range (!) without getting close. Compared with other close hitters' ranged spells, let's take Deviousness or Heads or Tails, Sword of Iop hits about twice as high. I'd reduce the range or change the damage to 30-35 base.

Precipitation: The final AP gain is 0, so essentially this spell simply borrows 4 AP from next turn for the current turn. As there are certain deciding turns to burst, both in PvM and PvP, the effect is extremely powerful and thus shouldn't be attained for nothing. The AP loss from next turn should indeed penalize the Iop, so let's say -6AP, or give the Iop a negative side effect alternatively.

Overall spells: slightly reducing their base damage to increase the focus on charged damage from Wrath and Precipitation. It would also weaken the insane damage that is possible right from turn 1.

0 0
Reply
Score : 6161

IMO, if a class doesn't need a nerf, it's iop. The only spells that turn it into the best damage dealer are very predictable and risky, and outside of wrath, it isn't actually the best damage dealer (that title would actually go to ecaflip, with fate being barely stronger than feline spirit, and FS is spammable). Not to mention the low range, predictability, and costly damage buffs stopping iop. Iops are powerful, but easy to counter/put themselves at risk in PvM. They need team support to be effective...and then it isn't iops being OP, it's other classes making iop strong. Iops are only used as the main damage dealers because they are simple, not due to efficiency; when you're dealing with endgame monsters, the last thing you need is complex class mechanics on top of other mechanics. Because, outside of wrath, iop is NOT the best damage dealer on the game. If you want me to, I'll post the numbers...I tested all classes damages with the exact same set (except elio and osa), and comparing damage/cast limitations/range, iop isn't the most powerful without wrath, which is the easiest spell to counter in the game (you're forgetting immunity spells, evasion, counter, and other anti iop tactics).

Damage is a good thing to have, but what makes a class hard to deal with and unbalanced are their mechanics. The closest classes to being nerfed at this point in time are sadida and eliotrope, due to very powerful mechanics.

Sword of iop: yes, you will spend 13 AP to deal weak damage at 10 range (because the further from the center of the spell, the weaker the spell is), get penalized from running away with precipitation (will be further from enemies, allowing them to keep you at bay, will have -APfrom precip.). Not cost-effective. You should know that, for every cell away from the center, SoI will hit 10% less damage. Which will turn it weaker than other long ranged spells. Not to mention linearity.

Precipitation: as I said before, gravity state on iop for 2 turns after using precipitation would cover all spell abuses here.

Overall spells: yeah, screw the agility build, which already doesn't have a charged spell. Screw the fact that iop damage WAS recently nerfed, except for earth iops, which aren't considered exceptional anyway. Screw the fact that iop buffs are expensive AP-wise, and that iops have "cicles of power", meaning most of their gameplay revolves around buffs and charge spells cooldown/duration already, and is getting nerfed for little reason.

Iops can't do anything powerful without support. They will deal nice damage and that's it. You should probably start paying attention to the other classes surrounding the iop to allow him to deal that damage, because I guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that no iop under the sun is able to deal that amount of damage alone, let alone in turn 1. Iops spend 9 AP to buff their damages, which is already very costly comparing to other classes (heck, enis have acces to almost the same amount of +dama/power while spending only 2 AP, and ecas can get almost the same with 4, while cras do better with 4, or 6, if they decide to get a critical hit boost to add to it), the base damage isn't much higher, the range is lower, and the mobility is costly. Iops alone are not powerful. Look at what is making them powerful, and I guarantee, it's another source.

1 -1
Reply
Score : 108

You exaggerate with the limitations. The only condition is to be in close combat with an appropriate enemy. In PvM that's zero of an issue, hands down, not to mention predictable AI.

Overall spells: I expected it to be clear that I mean the Str spells. Obviously, Str is now clearly ahead of Int and Agi, so I don't really care about those builds.

Damage: Other classes might surpass the Iop in damage/AP ratio slightly, but then there is Precipitation which gives +4AP and puts them clearly ahead. I don't know which set you used but with a dedicated set, 11/6 and 1700+ Str+Power can be reached. With 15 AP on turn 1 thanks to Precip, 3000-4000k on turn 1 is possible, and this is without a single buff. Thus, you'd be wrong to say that it's not possible by the Iop alone. Of course he'll lose AP next turn which is barely relevant because killing an appropriate monster or player puts you this far ahead. Killing, after all, is equivalent to skipping an enemy's turn infinitely. Other classes can immobilize, push away, tank or heal damages, but all of this is just laughed it by an Iop who enables such fast kills.

Allies: I always considered the Iop in a team context, see my first and third paragraph. So I don't know how you interpreted that I regard the Iop by himself.

I fully agree, the Iop is much stronger if supported by allies, but the problem is that he's way too powerful if that's the case. As I said, along with this damage from the Iop, the rest of the team doesn't need much more to finish off 4-6k vitality. There's also plenty of AP left for other allies to buff, position and protect the Iop.

That's exactly why an Iop is in almost any team, not necessarily PvP, but PvM. If you still disagree, explain why the Iop is by far the dominating and most used class in PvM. If he is balanced, the playerbase will apparantly be too braindead to use any other teams that can keep up with a team centered around an Iop. Of course I doubt that, so players will do that for a reason.

0 0
Reply
Score : 6161

In PvM, yes. In PvP, not happening, since anyone with a brain will push/steal MP. Plus, in PvM, being in close combat means you're taking hits. With how hard things hit in endgame, that's the *last* thing you want to do.

Overall spells: honestly, in damage per turn, int is ahead of str, AND has overall better range and side effects. The only things keeping str afloat are wrath and SoI., and SoI is weaker than both celestial and destructive, while wrath gets outdone by fate over time. SoI literally has only one advantage...range. And it's only mid range at that.

Other classes: precipitation gives burst damage for one turn, and drastically reduces damage in the other. So, in terms of damage per turn, it really doesn't do much, as you're trading damage in the next turn for damage in the current turn. And, while that allows for higher damage due to iop cicles, it's still riskier than other classes, leaving you wide open for damage. And if you use precip. to escape, then your damage will be lower, since jump is very AP expensive. Also, 11/6 1700 str, eh? You do realize you're sacrificing a TON of stats for that, don't you? Your vitality will be considerably lower; your resistances won't be that good; your wisdom will be low; you will literally only be able to have damage. And that is REALLY easy to counter, especially with how low iop range is, and you WILL die very, VERY fast. Such a set is not practical and unrealistic, and even then, give the same set to an ecaflip, and it WILL outdamage iop. And let's not forget: you CAN'T deal full damage on turn 1, because you will spend NINE AP to fully buff yourself. In that preparation turn, the other team will set up it's defenses and start imobilizing you, and you *might* kill one, and get revenge killed in return right after (due to poor hp/resists). And in PvM, it's even worse, since monsters have higher damage and will gang up on you.

Allies: any class with proper support is dangerous. In fact, rogue is MUCH more dangerous with support than any iop could ever hope to be. Which is why you see duos being done with rogue, more often than not.

Again, iop is used because it is SIMPLE. It doesn't have any complex mechanics, it doesn't have gambles, it doesn't have conditions; it is straightforward. It's not the best damage potential; that goes to rogues, and elios can surpass iops as well. It's not the best DPT, that goes to ecaflip. But it is simple to use and consistant. Thus, it is reliable, and more used. PvM teams are usually not composed of the strongest possible, but rather, the most reliable. Enis don't have the biggest potential heals, but they have the more consistant and reliable heals; pandawas are the best at map manipulation not because they can cover the biggest amount of distance, but because they can do it in a more precise and simple way.

1 -1
Reply
Score : 739

Sigh.. you just want them to nerf Iops because they are useful and do what they are supposed to do ? I don't really get this analogy.

I also don't understand why people come crying Nerf this or that,instead of asking for a Buff for the class that don't work so well, I'd rather see all class being good/useful than keeping this old system of having a few very strong and the others lame.

0 -1
Reply
Score : 108

I can't deny that Iops are weaker in PvP and I'm ok with the current Iop if it's only about PvP, but my main point was PvM (although the usage in PvP is big as well).

Precipitation doesn't add further damage in the long run, but more often than not it just won't be relevant. If the pinpointed monster is dead (which is easier done than said in a team) the momentum is way too big. There's a difference needing 1 turn to kill something and needing 2 turns. I lose 4 AP the following turn but maximize my chance to simply skip 1 more turn of a crucial monster. More than a fair trade.

Stats: Each class should be geared according to the purpose. Wisdom/MP-reduction for Enus/Sadis, Vitality for Masqs, Resis for tanks, and so on. If an Iop's only purpose is to deal damage, I won't focus on anything else. Particularly vitality is a minor stat if the team includes a Masq or healer because you simply heal back up in emergencies, no matter if your base vitality is 3k or 5k. Especially if the Iop isn't supposed to be hit in the first place, because you don't jump into a crowd of monsters, instead approach or attract a particular one which won't hit you because it will be dead before its turn. My build had 4k vitality, 1740 Str/Power and average wisdom, even in PvP it isn't as horribly dangerous as you describe it. Still, I'd pick a more balanced build in PvP, but not for PvM.

Buffs: It's not like you have to apply all buffs before casting any spells. The 3-4k was on turn 1, without ANY buffs except Precip. If it's enough to kill something right off the bat, it's of course better than letting it live for a turn. Including Iop's buffs, 5-6k by the Iop alone is reached. Additional charged damage by Wrath would add about 2500.

@plastini:

If some classes have a value of 3/10 on a scale from 1 to 10 and others have 10/10, what's the difference between buffing bad classes and nerfing the best ones? If they all reach nearly equal viability, your "lame" ones will be automatically useful...

0 0
Reply
Score : 6161

Precipitation does add damage in the long run, due to better usage of the buffs. However, no endgame monster will die with 4k damage, if I recall correctly; most of them have closer to 6k. Not to mention resists, buffs, debuffs and so on. Plus, again, it leaves you in close combat (so other monsters will mop the floor with you), and you can only do that if you spent a turn buffing (and assuming nothing unbewitched you). It's not that simple.

Stats: yes, and iop needs both damage, resistances AND vitality. What good a iop is, if it dies in a few hits? Being a close combat class, it will be at risk a lot more often than other classes, otherwise it won't be doing it's job. Plus, for a iop to reach 4k damage on 0% res, it needs to be at point blank range, and have good critical hits. There are monsters that unbewitch. There are monsters that erode. There are monsters that make you unhealable. Monsters counter all of that stuff. Plus, monsters usually walk in a coordinated way, and have similar MP. Unless the monster is ranged, they will walk together and try to lock you by pushing you into a corner. Yes, you can pull them, but now you're using another class to make this tactic viable. So, you need the iop, something to keep it alive, AND something to pull monsters from a greater distance JUST to make one build viable. Again, rogue is much more dangerous in these cicunstances, since the party would attract things into bomb walls and keep bombs alive. The damage would be higher than iop's, it would act as a barrier, so monsters would take a longer path to reach you, and it wouldn't waste nearly as much AP.

About damage, that's assuming max damage, crits in everything (which I doubt would happen) AND that you would be at point blank at turn 1. I did tests as well, and there is a good chance you will deal approximately 3k damage, that would leave you at point blank range, wide open for attack, with low vitality, low resistances (especially because you're likely using count set), about to get a heavy AP debuff. That's IF you reach the enemy. It's not worth it. And that's not even mentioning what happens with enemies with high eart resistance, which is the most common resistance for monsters (along with fire).

Also, you should take a look at what is happening around with other classes. All classes are getting stronger and viable. I have an iop for my team, and honestly, I'm considering leaving my iop as a third choice for damage dealer, because my ecaflip and my sram are capable of so much more.

0 0
Reply
Score : 2952
masik566|2015-10-24 22:00:52
ImO if a class were to be nerfed next, it should be the Iop.

Indeed, the Iop's almost only purpose is to deal high damage and he is supposed to be the best damage dealing class in the game. Unfortunately, the damage is just way too high. Precipitation taken into account and eventually some buffs, a glass cannon version can easily deal 3-5k from turn 1 on, so this isn't even with wrath. In PvM in a standard team of 3-5 players, it becomes a piece of cake to kill certain monsters on turn one just by casting further damage spells on it and/or buffing/positioning the Iop.

First off, monsters don't complain about getting beaten so fast, only players do.
Precipitation gives you -4ap next turn while offering +4 the current turn (And has to be used fully buffed to actually be worth the effort)
I dislike Precipitation too, and I am a Iop.

I saw an Agility Eliotrope hitting 1.2k per Bullying from halfway across the map, and you complain that Iop hits too hard?
Pfft, most classes these days can hit a lot harder than Iop, so easily that it's insulting calling Iop "The Damage Dealer Class"
If anything Iop needs a buff desperately, especially Agility Iop who has gone unloved for so long.

And 'almost only purpose'.... dealing damage IS our only purpose, that's the only reason anyone brings one of us along.
Glass cannon is glass cannon after all, we hit things and then our job is done.
Our buffs are substandard, our damage dealing is restricted to mostly medium range and so many classes can do better while having extra roles to fill.

We have one life stealing ability outside of weapon damage, and even then it's only worth a small amount if you are hybrid agi/int.
We have one (Two if you count Jump) defensive ability, and that's Vitality.
We have two positioning abilities: Blow and Intimidation.
We have 3 damage buffing abilities (Not including Jump) and they are Divine Sword (Which is a nuisance to keep up because of it's high ap cost to maintain a constant buff),Power (Which lasts two turns, including the turn you casted it with a cooldown of 4 turns, which is laughable compared to most other classes with Power buffing abilities) and Poutch (Which is by far the best and most useful considering uptime and team usefulness)

Most of our other spells are hardly worth talking about.
1 -1
Reply
Score : 739
masik566|2015-10-26 23:17:24
If some classes have a value of 3/10 on a scale from 1 to 10 and others have 10/10, what's the difference between buffing bad classes and nerfing the best ones? If they all reach nearly equal viability, your "lame" ones will be automatically useful...
No,maybe in the PvP aspect but not in the PvM due the fact monsters wouldn't change.
0 0
Reply
Score : 4519

If monsters never change, buffing classes would be equally as "bad" as nerfing classes. The fact is monsters do get nerfed and buffed as developers notice imbalances, just like classes do.

0 0
Reply
Score : 27358
plastini|2015-10-31 13:51:57
masik566|2015-10-26 23:17:24
If some classes have a value of 3/10 on a scale from 1 to 10 and others have 10/10, what's the difference between buffing bad classes and nerfing the best ones? If they all reach nearly equal viability, your "lame" ones will be automatically useful...
No,maybe in the PvP aspect but not in the PvM due the fact monsters wouldn't change.
Changing the way to disable a vulnerability state is just the same as changing a monster, because you can no longer kill them as before.

Going by that alone, there are lots of monster changes.
0 0
Reply
Score : 739

Ok that was badly expressed,I'm aware that monsters changes sometimes.I meant in that specific case that he suggested.

0 0
Reply
Respond to this thread