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agi or str ouginak? which is better?

By Greyywolf23 - FORMER SUBSCRIBER - February 14, 2017, 20:19:13
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Score : 6096

People were discussing bielemental builds, so I'm discussing bielemental builds as well. My thoughts for mono:

Earth: cool tank, crappy at endgame due to lack of range. Has the same issues as old sacrier, basically, hence it won't be good endgame. Be hybrid ASAP.

Air: good damage, but that's about it. Not much utility otherwise.

Water: Great range and nice damage, but has few chances to set up rage, which means it generally boils down to spamming marrow bone. Pretty bland. Also doesn't really combo well with the other builds, so it feels kind of out of place, even though covering range is nice.

Fire: probably the best mono build, due to it's great damage and utility. Also the build that uses feral form the best.

Tibia actually is great for getting multiple people off of you, since it's an AoE pushback spell, btw, and you can use it to get to rage 3. So if you can't take the heat, you can steal some MP, then use it to get out of there. The problem with water, as I've mentioned, is that it doesn't really help with ougi's main functions. It covers for the range weakness and that's it, it can't even use the support spells effectively.

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....what?

Wait, what level is your Ouginak? It's not on your profile.

I have to seriously disagree with you about, like, 80% of that. Many people have pointed out that Ouginak is just fine as pure Earth.

You also seem to seriously underestimate the support spells. Ouginak's support spells are AMAZING and work fine with every element. Yapper especially works well with spells like Marrow, and it works amazingly well with Air spells if it's placed right. Fire, on the other hand, is my least used branch - sure, it has some nice spells on its own, but the beauty of Ouginak is using all spells available for a wide variety of crazy movements, and Fire doesn't fit that as well as Water and Air, nor do its spells work well in crazy combos with other elements.

You are really, really overestimating Fire, especially if your whole concept relies on the existence of Feral which is an incredibly temporary form only meant for burst damage and unlocking oneself. Fire is all about locking the opponent - it's not about damage or utility; in fact, it only has ONE utility - locking.

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I don't have an ouginak on the live servers. I did, however, rise one from 1 to 100 on beta, as well as class swap my eca to ougi to test it in high levels.Since I tend to plan my builds for endgame, rather than do things as I go...

I don't underestimate the support spells. However, a lot of them require rage, and for air and water builds, they don't generally cast the rage inducing spells a lot, and that is what I mean. Fire and earth have a MUCH easier time building rage up, due to them already being in close combat and the rage spells having incredibly powerful spells anyway, though earth will generally enjoy rage 2 a lot more than rage 3.

When I tested yapper, it was pretty meh endgame. It deals 90 damage per hit not counting resistances, and while that is nice, it will generally die pretty fast, and I found myself prioritizing other things (power buffs, resistance buffs, inflicting gravity, etc). It works on lower levels, sure, but it falls off a lot in PvM.

Fire is my preferred branch due to it's utility, and the damage is very high as well. -3 MP and gravity at the same time is pretty amazing, especially when gravity is a somewhat rare and generally not spammable status, and it hits like a truck. MP steal is also very, very good for hit and run tactics, slowing your enemies down and increasing your own mobility, and if you need to come back in again, you can lunge at them and start over.

As for not working in combos...cerberus+tetanization: -50 dodge, -3MP and gravity. Mix that with the rooted state spell and your target is NOT leaving the cell it's in. Lunging forward to use the earth spells is great too. Air/fire has great dodge, so it can come in, hit, steal MP and run away pretty easily. Great for hit and run tactics...same with water/fire. Fire can come in, build rage, then use tibia and/or steal some MP and run away to safety. In fact, it's probably the best water hybrid. Fire supports or is supported by every other build.

I think you are underestimating the mobility and utility fire gives. MP steal is incredible in PvM, since you can both stop enemies from moving and increasing your own movement, you can rush in, do whatever you want, then run away. They can't chase you, since they can't teleport or walk, and they also can't run for cover, which means an easy target for you and your team. Fire is amazing because of that: it hinders enemies, it makes yourself safer, and it supports your team at the same time. The damage is nice too. The other builds have interesting points as well, but I feel fire is the best build for a party, since it offers a lot more than just damage or tanking.

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Okay...

I'm kind of confused about what you mean when you say Rage 2 and Rage 3. Can you elaborate?

All of the Fire examples you had were about locking the opponent and running away...which I acknowledged as Fire's only benefit. The Lunge thing could be used generally for, as you said, making Earth possible, but beyond that only lockers will want Fire. Sure, Fire can support every other element - but I was asking about mono, and you said Fire would be the best mono build, which honestly just isn't true - if anything, Earth is.

You're putting way, way too much of a focus on mobility. Having played Wakfu, Dofus is less mobility-heavy, and honestly if you're in a group then someone else can handle mobility. A DPS-Tank, which is what Earth is, would fit better in a party than Fire. Again, Fire is the best lock-and-run element, but honestly it's best used supporting other elements and helping your allies with crowd control. I'm just saying there's no basis to it being the best mono build.

Like you said - it's great for a party; I'm totally agreeing with that, but only for one role in the party. If the party has a better locker, then Fire is useless; while every party would be fine with multiple DPS-Tanks. And it just isn't that great on its own outside of a party...as it can only lock-and-run.

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It's pretty simple. Rage stacks 3 times; On the third stack, you turn into your feral form. However, the first and second stacks ALSO have their effects, namely, -10% final damage received by the ouginak for each. So, since earth ougi wants to be tankier, keeping itself at rage 2 (about to transform, but not transformed yet) is ideal, since it can get up to -35% final daamge reduction on itself. It's what allows it to tank so damn well. Fire, however, likes the mobility and doesn't lose much range after being transformed, and it applies rage better than air and water. Thus, best build to go all out on the rage.

Fire is still the best mono build, in my opinion, because it also supports YOUR PARTY nicely. MP stealing is very important and extremely useful in PvM; monsters can't hit what they can't reach. Fire has better mobility than earth, so it can keep itself safe and potentially not take damage; earth will take damage a lot of the time, but fire doesn't have to, since it can come at 3 range, steal MP, and run away.

Different styles ask for different things. I play primarily as an ecaflip, so my playstyle usually revolves around not getting hit in the first place. Your playstyle seems to be a tankier one, so you like earth more. Nothing wrong with that, would you agree? However, there are a hell of a lot more monsters that punish you for staying close than the opposite, so I feel like the MP steal and mobility keep yourself safer. You can use the fire spells both to keep an enemy close and to keep an enemy from chasing you or an ally down, and that is valuable in more situations than earth's ability to soak up damage (especially when fire has access to 20% final damage reduction anyway).

There aren't better lockers in the game, though...sacrier is the closest thing, and honestly, ouginaks will deal with the issues better and faster (at least until sacrier gets part 2 of it's revamp). Huppers are better for tanking crowds due to AoE lifesteal, but not for locking, since they can't inflict as much -MP, or as easily. Fecas are designed intentionally so they won't be able to lock unless they are agility based, and then they have much weaker damage overall.

Also, you're talking about fire as if it didn't hit hard. It does. It hits incredibly hard while inflicting it's effects. Earth hits hard too, but even with my gear being slightly better for earth, it dealt overall slightly less damage in a turn. So...yeah.

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i'd argue that if you're close enough to take mp then you're most likely close enough to get hit. To make the mp theft effective, you'd need to get high mp reduction, which may weaken damage output

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Lynn-Reiginleif|2017-02-19 20:45:51
Fire is still the best mono build, in my opinion, because it also supports YOUR PARTY nicely. MP stealing is very important and extremely useful in PvM; monsters can't hit what they can't reach. Fire has better mobility than earth, so it can keep itself safe and potentially not take damage; earth will take damage a lot of the time, but fire doesn't have to, since it can come at 3 range, steal MP, and run away.

However, there are a hell of a lot more monsters that punish you for staying close than the opposite, so I feel like the MP steal and mobility keep yourself safer.

Also, you're talking about fire as if it didn't hit hard. It does. It hits incredibly hard while inflicting it's effects. Earth hits hard too, but even with my gear being slightly better for earth, it dealt overall slightly less damage in a turn. So...yeah.


You're missing the point. Earth is supposed to take damage - it's not supposed to be safe. You pointed out that I have a more tanky playstyle; that's not true, I'm actually a rogue archetype most of the time, it's just that Ouginak feels like it's supposed to be tanky. If anything, Ouginak feels like a Secondary Tank - not a Main Tank, so it's supposed to block an enemy from even moving in the first place by pushing it into a corner and keeping it there.

As for Fire or Earth being stronger, I can't counter that because I haven't gotten to endgame. But I just feel that you're kind of missing the point of what Ouginak is supposed to be...it's a dog, not a cat, so it's supposed to chase the enemy down, not run away from it. And when it gets to the enemy, it's supposed to hold on tight and not let go. Fire can do that, but I feel that Earth does it better by surviving longer in melee range.
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earth is barely capable of "not letting go" tho. All it has is the -dodge, which isn't even that effective

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syncromasterXXX|2017-02-19 21:12:16
i'd argue that if you're close enough to take mp then you're most likely close enough to get hit. To make the mp theft effective, you'd need to get high mp reduction, which may weaken damage output
I'd argue that with trophies and such, you can without losing to much damage. But sure, it's a tradeoff, but you can change your equipment depending on the situation. You have the option, which is more than what earth has.

@Rezilla: I know. But as I have pointed out quite a few times by now, sometimes you can't afford to take damage. There are a lot of close combat instakill monsters. Fire's flexibility allows you to deal with them, but earth has nothing. Earth is a good element, I just feel fire can deal with more situations better.

I know exactly what ouginak is supposed to be, a close combat bulky damage dealer (and ougis are probably the second or third best tanks in the game, so don't sell them too short there). And I usually play by going on the offensive; lunge in and do my stuff (as omni, usually watchdog/carcass twice/whatever else I want at the moment). However, again, that's not always an option, and sometimes, you have to know when to tuck your tail between your legs and flee. My point isn't that fire plays better or is better at tanking than earth, my point is that fire has better flexibility, which allows it to deal with different situations. As I said, I would end up using all elements in my ouginak, because I like having options. I've been in more situations where versatility wins the game instead of power than I can even think of, and it's why I think fire is overall better.
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Hmmm... Alright, then.

I'll take your advice to heart as I'm playing. I'll still be pure Earth for as long as it suits me, but that doesn't be I won't start building another element later or restat. I won't dare continue this conversation until I hit endgame, tbh. xD

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Honestly, you should do that. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for others, which is why I brought playstyles up earlier. The most important part in the game is to have fun, in the end of the day, and if you have fun with your build, then there is no better build in the world^^

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What are your thoughts on Omni Ougis? Thinking of using my spare dofusteuse on her, but don't know yet.

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Very powerful and useful, though honestly I wouldn't use dofusteuse on it. I find that as omni, you'll be using 2~3 elements per turn, so something more stable is better.

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I whole heartily agree here. Some classes do favour an omni build, but i feel as though you don't get much bang for your buck as an omni Ougi. They have some great pushback damage capabilities though.

Even a full Vit Ougi could be an interesting build.

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I've gone for Str/Cha, but i also use Int and Agi for extra utility. E.g, Agi for extra power%/erosion and Int for pushback and pulling towards a target in prey state.
Str has been a great build for me, but also, so has Chance, especially Tibia, which i also use for pushback damage.

My Ougi is based off utility, pushback damage and suitability. They're not the greatest damage dealers, nor perhaps the best surviving skills, but i would say this is a very balanced class overall.

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