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Determining Dodgelock

By #[Izmar] - ADMIN - March 17, 2011, 17:54:21
DevTracker
Observation :

The lock system currently has two main problems:
  • It is random
  • It favors static gameplay
The random aspect of the lock system leaves too much to chance during combat, and prevents players from accurately predicting the result of their actions, something that we deem inappropriate for a tactical game.

What’s more, this system often creates static gameplay when an opponent has no chance of escaping, or when he doesn’t want to risk trying to escape (because the chance of failure is too high). This results in battles where only a small part of the battle area is used, which forces players to resort to close combat. Once more, this does not encourage tactical gameplay since it limits the tactical choices available to players.

Less random and more strategic:

We have, therefore, decided to improve the lock system by making it static (in other words, not random, but predictable), as of the March 29th update.
To replace successful lock or dodge probability, we decided to apply an MP and AP penalty in direct relation to the lock and dodge skill of all parties concerned.
Before making a decision, the player will be able to know:
  • How many AP he will lose.
  • How many MP he will lose.
  • How many squares he can move if he is in a tackle zone.
  • How many squares he can move if he gets rid of a lock (by pushing back his opponents, for example).
From now on, an escape attempt will cause the player to lose a percentage of AP and MP which will depend on the Dodge stat (of the escaping player) and the Lock stat (of the Locking player).

The percentage of AP and MP remaining during an dodge attempt is based on the following formulae:
Percentage = (Dodge + 2) / ((2 x (Lock + 2))
These two consistents allow the system to function even when players have very low Dodge and Lock stats.


The Osa has 70 Lock and 10 Dodge; the Rogue has 10 Lock and 70 Dodge, the Masqueraider has 40 in both Lock and Dodge. All 3 characters have 10 AP and 5 MP.


With equal Dodge and Lock values, the escaping player will systematically lose half his AP and half his MP.
A player with half the Dodge of his opponent’s Lock skill will lose about 75% of his AP and MP while trying to escape.

If several players are Locking, the percentage of AP / MP lost is the product of the percentages calculated for each Locking player. For example, if a player attempts to escape when he is in contact with two opponents with equal Lock and Escape skill values, he will lose 75% of his AP and MP (50% x 50% = 25%). This system rewards the use of several Locking players to block a single target.


Same players, same stats, different situations.


To completely immobilise a target (by removing all his AP and MP during an escape), the player needs a Lock skill higher than:
Target_MP x (Target_dodge + 2) – 2
For example, to completely immobilise a player with 6 MP and an escape skill of 10, you would need a Lock skill of at least 70.

To escape a Lock area without losing any AP or MP, the player’s Dodge needs to be greater than or equal to twice the Lock of the Locking player +2.
For example, to escape without losing any AP or MP when in contact with a player with 10 to Lock, you need a Dodge stat of at least 22.

In case of equal Dodge and Lock values, the escaping player will lose half his AP and MP. In the old system, the escaping player had a 50% chance of losing all his MP and a quarter of his AP (on average, 50% MP and 12,5% AP loss).

This new system doesn’t make Lock any less effective, it just transforms a probability into a predictable set of rules.

A Locking player will no longer be affected by chance when a player attempts to escape. The escapee will no longer be able to move a significant distance away from his opponent.
This system makes a complete Lock (where the enemy is unable to escape) very hard (we don’t want static battles), but gives the locking player a better control over his opponent’s AP since the escaping player will have to use his AP by making contact with the Locking player or face losing a large part of his AP.

Adding importance to all Dodge and Lock stat values

The way the old Lock system worked only favoured extremely high levels of Lock and Dodge, since only extremely high stats allowed the player consistent success when Dodging or Locking.

This new system gives more importance to Lock and Dodge, no matter the amount, in that it reduces the amount of AP and MP lost when attempting to escape, and increases the amount of AP and MP removed during Lock attempts. These attempts now have set values: players who do not wish to take too many chances deciding the outcome of a fight can now attempt to Lock or Dodge knowing exactly what they will lose or what their enemy will lose without suffering the downsides of a luck-based system.

This system will encourage players to attempt actions that they would otherwise not have tried (because the result was too unpredictable) with the old Lock system, and to add importance to their Lock and Dodge stat investments, even if they don’t intend to specialise in Locking or Dodging.

Accelerated combat:

This new Lock management system prevent is from completely stopping a player’s movement every time he enters a Lock zone. Indeed, since AP and MP loss is now set in stone, they can be calculated in advance and applied automatically without having to process each escape attempt separately. Therefore, combat movement will be faster.

In-game display:

In order to make the new system as intuitive as possible, Lock values can be displayed by highlighting entities in combat.
AP and MP loss values for each Dodge attempt will be displayed on the player’s movement path.

In addition, players will be able to easily visualize inaccessible squares (displayed in red), which also corresponds to squares potentially accessible if the player can completely avoid Lock attempts (by pushing back the Locking player, for example).

Management of Invisibility:

From now on, invisible players will be immune to Lock, meaning they won’t be able to Lock their opponents, and will always be able to escape. This change was necessary to guarantee that the predetermined system would work correctly. It also seems more coherent with the current role given to invisibility: moving freely without being seen or blocked.

AI:

Monsters will, of course, take this new Lock system into consideration, which will allow them to behave more efficiently since it will be predetermined. For example, a monster will be able to take initiative and decide to lose a large amount of AP and MP if it allows him to kill an opponent anyway.

This new system will therefore improve the gameplay experience during combat against monsters, by making them less random, and more predictable and tactical.

Slowing down a monster’s movement by locking it will now be a much more viable option, as players will be able to know exactly how many AP and MP they will cause it to lose each turn without fear of the old random system with could completely ruin some tactics based on lock.

In the old system, a monster could randomly succeed in escaping a Locking player whilst losing no AP or MP, and could therefore keep its entire offensive potential. This type of situation will no longer happen.

Conclusion:

The role of dodgelocker will evolve to a more tactically interesting position in a team. The Locking player will increase his capacity to reduce enemy movement (keeping him at arm's reach) while increasing his potential to control the opponent via AP loss inflicted on players attempting to escape a lock with a low Dodge score.

Originally posted by Lichen
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Reactions 41
Score : 4340

So now there is a chance of -9AP and -5MP if we have comparable stats to those used in the example? Stupid.

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Score : 1462

Sounds decent.
Still trying to crunch all those numbers and get my head round it all, but I think I got the basics of it and don't think this a bad idea.
I think I will have to see how it works in gameplay to have a solid opinion on it, but all in all, a fairly good idea.

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Score : 164

Great, I guess Agi Iops are a dead pvm build now, good job.

Also this change will not affect the characters who remain static in combat at all, they won't sacrifice ap/mp for the sake of moving a few squars and then doing nothing on their turn.

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Score : 9394
Stonemaster|2011-03-17 22:56:23
Great, I guess Agi Iops are a dead pvm build now, good job.

No, only dodging is changed. Their overpowered celestial sword and their ridiculous mad tofu cloak / toady set will stay the same.
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Score : 1362

I wonder if this has a dastardly effect on those of us with negative dodge and lock... namely a certain sadida with -40 both.

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Score : 6477

All this is going to do is promote MORE static combat. You WILL lose AP and MP...if you are losing a large amount...even a moderate amount, of MP you can't escape very far without them just being able to lock you again. Rogues and Masks benefit greatly from this change due to all the movement spells they have, but my Osa for example, which Agi serves no use other than to increase Dodge/Lock ( I do have my Agi scrolled though) will suffer greatly from this system. Ones only option is to get Release, farm diamonds, and level it to 6. That is the only real change we will be seeing here. Before I would try to dodge once, if successful I would always try to dodge, if not I would then use Release lvl1. In this new set up you basically have to ALWAYS use release otherwise your MP will be removed so you can't run far enough away and your AP will be removed so you can't summon a block or for some classes use your higher minimum range spells.

My guess is you guys saw how the new Frigost dodge/lock bonuses on gear weren't as popular as expected and are basically now forcing us to take this type of gear. Which I might add is lame, because there are a limited amount of choices of gear with these bonuses.

Granted I like this idea in theory...but it is going to have the exact opposite of the desired effect. Furthermore, certain classes will become even more indispensable in PvM and PvP groups now.

Your only hope would be to spam in game chat or to post it on a forum. Be specific with your info, give an advanced listing of any rules or whatever (which you have no way of enforcing), and hoping for the best.

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Score : 133

What does static combat mean?

I like the invisibility buff, which seems logical. The rest seems pointless. A player will dodge and lose enough mp they will just be locked again the next turn. This new formula isn't necessary at all. It will just make dungeons more difficult if monsters that need to be locked into place can now walk a short distance away from the locker.

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Score : 1411
Electricotter|2011-03-18 00:21:34
My guess is you guys saw how the new Frigost dodge/lock bonuses on gear weren't as popular as expected and are basically now forcing us to take this type of gear. Which I might add is lame, because there are a limited amount of choices of gear with these bonuses.
My guess is that they made that gear in preparation for these changes. They are releasing more gear with this update, and still haven't released all of frigost yet, so there will be much more gear to come. I'm wondering if there will be have to be some tweaks to old world gear eventually, though....
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Score : 238

I have a question. Is this new system more like a partial dodge/lock system, where you can usually dodge regardless of stats, but lose a portion of your mp?

If monsters can partially dodge a locker in your team and walk a space or two away each turn, this makes doing various dungeons difficult to nearly impossible. Wasta won't be able to lock tynrils, Sram won't be able to lock royal pingwin, teams won't be able to trap bworker in corners, etc. If monsters will be able to move freely away from a locker, this messes up numerous dungeon strategies for various teams and I petition against the change.

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Score : 350

This doesnt look really good imo, but lets wat to all see it in the game.
Anyway, a question
now that you will only be able to have 6mp, what will happen to mp spells?
Like when i cast invisibilty when i have 5 mp, will i have 7mp or 6mp?

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Score : 1150

Thanks for the informative post izmar, I like the way two accounts can be used together to help lock. It will be very interesting to see how this changes perc fights / group pvp etc.

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Score : 4479
kaninekrunchies|2011-03-18 06:52:57
I have a question. Is this new system more like a partial dodge/lock system, where you can usually dodge regardless of stats, but lose a portion of your mp?

If monsters can partially dodge a locker in your team and walk a space or two away each turn, this makes doing various dungeons difficult to nearly impossible. Wasta won't be able to lock tynrils, Sram won't be able to lock royal pingwin, teams won't be able to trap bworker in corners, etc. If monsters will be able to move freely away from a locker, this messes up numerous dungeon strategies for various teams and I petition against the change.
if you'd read the post you'd realize that you CAN completely lock someone/something as long as your lock is a certain amount higher than their dodge. this means that 2-3 sacs can most likely permanently lock something given the ability to exceed 100 lock each.

and [email protected] thinking a petition will do anything. and again for entering the "panic state" over something that you havent even been able to see ingame at all, let alone personally test.
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Score : 79
Stonemaster|2011-03-17 22:56:23
Great, I guess Agi Iops are a dead pvm build now, good job.

Also this change will not affect the characters who remain static in combat at all, they won't sacrifice ap/mp for the sake of moving a few squars and then doing nothing on their turn.
I tried it on test server earlier today. this new system will discourage static combat. For example of an osa fighting sacrier and sacrier successfully lock osa against the wall and cast cawwot beside sac himself/herself. provided sac does not have lock stat higher than twice the osa's dodge plus two, osa has an alternative of losing part of its ap/mp to escape from the situation that would otherwise force him/her to engage into close combat in the previous system.

Another example of eni locked against the wall or cawwot, s/he can choose to lose part of his/her ap/mp to escape. Of course s/he could not escape that far, but the possibility to play more strategically is opened up, rather than being forced to engage in a toe-to-toe combat.
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Score : 7815
kaninekrunchies|2011-03-18 06:52:57
I have a question. Is this new system more like a partial dodge/lock system, where you can usually dodge regardless of stats, but lose a portion of your mp?

If monsters can partially dodge a locker in your team and walk a space or two away each turn, this makes doing various dungeons difficult to nearly impossible. Wasta won't be able to lock tynrils, Sram won't be able to lock royal pingwin, teams won't be able to trap bworker in corners, etc. If monsters will be able to move freely away from a locker, this messes up numerous dungeon strategies for various teams and I petition against the change.
So dungeons become more challenging. They never where suppose to be a walk in the park.
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Score : -203
Izmar|2011-03-17 17:54:21

Management of Invisibility:

From now on, invisible players will be immune to Lock, meaning they won’t be able to Lock their opponents, and will always be able to escape. This change was necessary to guarantee that the predetermined system would work correctly. It also seems more coherent with the current role given to invisibility: moving freely without being seen or blocked.

Major Sram upgrade! Finally the Sram's get a realistic power. I totally agree with this!
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Score : 79
kaninekrunchies|2011-03-18 06:52:57
I have a question. Is this new system more like a partial dodge/lock system, where you can usually dodge regardless of stats, but lose a portion of your mp?

If monsters can partially dodge a locker in your team and walk a space or two away each turn, this makes doing various dungeons difficult to nearly impossible. Wasta won't be able to lock tynrils, Sram won't be able to lock royal pingwin, teams won't be able to trap bworker in corners, etc. If monsters will be able to move freely away from a locker, this messes up numerous dungeon strategies for various teams and I petition against the change
The way I see it is very similar to what you described as partial dodge/lock system. I also expect the possibility that some of the dungeon boss strategies might be obsolete to certain extents.

However, the system does gives some controls over the opponents since it takes both ap and mp from the dodge attempt. If your lock stat is high enough, you can remove most of your opponent's ap/mp from their attempt to dodge, which of course will limit their actions to be executed in that particular turn. Plus, if they spend their ap while being in tackle zone to the point that they have less ap than what they are supposed to lose from their dodge attempt, they cannot escape the tackle zone. So it is like what Izmar had mentioned before, the lock will not be made any less effective in this new system, it is transformed into other form of what i would like to call controls over your opponent.

It will be up to your opponents to decide either to sacrifice ap/mp to escape for better positioning next turn, or to stay in the heat of close combat. As to what extent the boss strategy will be effected, it will absolutely be up to the monster's AI. I have yet to try those dungeons out, I will do it first thing when the test server is up and running again.
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Score : 1362

We got along just fine before cras had lashing arrow, and now that it's gone everyone seems to be freaking out about how the only good mp theft class is gone. Whatever happened to sadidas in tynril, and enus in SO? UP is by far the greatest mp theft spell in the game, along with soothing bramble, clumsiness, and wild grass.

I'm in favor of these dodge changes and I don't even have a single dodge/lock point. (They're actually negative.)

We got along just fine before cras had lashing arrow, and now that it's gone everyone seems to be freaking out about how the only good mp theft class is gone. Whatever happened to sadidas in tynril, and enus in SO? UP is by far the greatest mp theft spell in the game, along with soothing bramble, clumsiness, and wild grass.

I'm in favor of these dodge changes and I don't even have a single dodge/lock point. (They're actually negative.)

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Score : -203

I'm guessing that greedoblop will be a lot easier to manage by summon osa. This will definitely change a lot of the gameplay mechanics.

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Score : 4340
frogorell|2011-03-18 17:45:09
We got along just fine before cras had lashing arrow, and now that it's gone everyone seems to be freaking out about how the only good mp theft class is gone. Whatever happened to sadidas in tynril, and enus in SO? UP is by far the greatest mp theft spell in the game, along with soothing bramble, clumsiness, and wild grass.

I'm in favor of these dodge changes and I don't even have a single dodge/lock point. (They're actually negative.)

Nobody is talking about lashing arrow. Why did you bring it up?

The other strategies you mentioned are fine, and sadidas and enus are still used in tynril and numerous other dungeons. The problem is the dungeon strategies will become more narrow as lockers become obsolete. There are countless dungeon strategies that revolve around one or two lockers in a group. Someone already brought up several of those examples (sorry I'm too lazy to quote who it was). In essence, Ankama is saying you must have MP steal capabilities in your dungeon groups now, as their focus continues to shift to this single strategy.
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