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Rebalancing Summoned Dopples in 2.8

By September 07, 2012, 16:40:55
Reactions 80
Score : 580

In regards to the replies I've gotten (and some posts in general), I'll say this:

Are you interested in Dofus being a "rock, paper, scissors" game in PvP?

In PvM: What do you think about needing specific classes in your team to beat a particular dungeon?

The truth is this: if you further strengthen the already-strong abilities in classes, the characters specialize way too much in those abilities.

The "good" dopples give buffs which enforce the strengths of the class too much.

That's why you can't just buff, buff, buff.

I'm glad Dofus allows (or demands) more versatility in its characters, these days. The versatility is fun to me.

Where is the fun in spamming the same 2 or 3 spells over and over again for 200 levels?

Do you enjoy playing shallow, one-dimensional characters?

How do you feel, as a single accounter, about not being able to contribute in a group because your limited specialties don't apply to the battle situation?

How do you feel, as a multi-clienter, that you need to make another alt because you can't get past a certain dungeons without its specialties?

Would you deeply enjoy only running the same 3-5 dungeons over and over because they are the only ones in which your specialties are useful?

Why should even having a dopple be essential to play a particular class well?

By keeping the current "OP" dopples at their current status and "upgrading" the others, you only enforce a particular class' specialties.

It's very fair that all dopples will be similar: they'll do low-to-moderate damage, and inflict only minor effects (if any at all). That's balancing. The dopple balancing is a nerf to some class' dopples, and a buff to other dopples. That's balancing. No individual class will be able to summon multiple dopples for multiple buffs and obtain godlike buffs. That's balancing. Classes with more buff spells (especially AoE buffs) will have less advantages from summoning a dopple than the classes with very few buff spells will, as weaker dopples benefit less from any buffs. That is also balancing.

People cry for "balancing" all of the time. Here it is. You got it. Grats.

As I said, making certain classes overspecialize in particular abilities is not "balancing". Having particular classes overpowered in any class-specific aspects creates imbalance, not balance.

As for the arguments calling the "dopple nerf" an abomination because it makes getting Lvl.200 less enticing: ...So? Whoever said that getting Lvl.200 is the point of playing the game? It's a personal choice, and if it's your choice, then it's your problem. The philosophy of "life begins at 200" is false -- the life begins when you decide to enjoy the game. If you need 7.3 billion exp before you can enjoy the game, you're likely playing the wrong class or playing the wrong game.

Whether or not any particular nerfs have caused more complaints than they deserve is a matter of personal opinion, and I've stated mine. But read what I wrote, again:

"In 6+ years of playing this game, I have yet to encounter a single nerf that was actually worse than the level of complaints it generated."

Note that I didn't write "amount" of complaints. It's perfectly fine for people to complain, but some people take it to the next level. I'll throw in some lovely quotes pertaining to this topic:

"this is a stupid change, whoever thought of this should just go bang his head in the wall as hard as he can."

"If you dumbasses want to rebalance something, rebalance that overpowered piece of crap."

"Ankama this is the most stupid thing you have done thus far... that seems to be all you morons care about."

"Well Ankama.. Well fucking done."

"~stop adding bullshit and stop nerfing"

There's never a need to be rude, and there's nothing productive about being downright insulting. If you've voiced your complaints in a civil manner, then my quote doesn't apply to you. There's nothing wrong with complaining, but there's no reason to make it sound like you're being accosted by a large cellmate.

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Cunning,

After reading your post, i'm thinking now the only way to balance the game of dofus is to give everyone the same spells (joke).biggrin Bingo, problem solved. Give everyone the same damage. Give everyone access to any set of a specific lvl for completing a certain dung.

I don't think it's possible to ever balance a game like this. Too many factors. In the end, your right. just play the game and enjoy it.tongue 

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quickben|2012-09-12 22:59:43
yet for some unfathomable reason are being told to go suck eggs and like it

There's a reason your brain found it unfathomable:

Because it ain't there.

You have somehow equated a discussion on the pros & cons, as no different from saying "suck it & like it."

surgray already understands that sharing your side of an argument does not mean forcing other people to like it.

It's called projection: you see him as telling you to "suck it & like it."

When the reality is: he understands that you don't have to agree with it.

quickben|2012-09-12 22:59:43
stop referring to a nerf as "rebalancing". That's akin to taking away half a Marines munitions and calling it a "backpack lessening load redeployment

Bull.

That's like surgray telling you this:

"Stop referring to rebalancing as a "nerf". That's akin to taking away half a Marines munitions and calling it a "backpack lessening load redeployment"

If he'd sound nuts to you; you'd be blaming your own words.

The update can validly be seen as both a nerf & rebalancing, and because of this: it becomes valid to substitute one word for the other.

quickben|2012-09-12 22:59:43
Intelligent people despise wishy-washy weasel words. A spade, is a spade

Answer this:

Do you claim that this does not rebalance the dopples?

If you say yes: then anyone who doesn't play a panda/sadi will know you're lying.

If you say no: then you admit that this is a rebalancing.

You'll be forced to call a spade, a spade. And a rebalancing, a rebalancing.

That's the problem with flawed logic: it traps you into the hypocrisy of being the very thing you claim to despise.

.
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xxsem|2012-09-13 06:05:45
Cunning,

After reading your post, i'm thinking now the only way to balance the game of dofus is to give everyone the same spells (joke).biggrin Bingo, problem solved. Give everyone the same damage. Give everyone access to any set of a specific lvl for completing a certain dung.

I don't think it's possible to ever balance a game like this. Too many factors. In the end, your right. just play the game and enjoy it.tongue

Heh heh. There's always a kinda-foggy area between making all classes 'too similar' and 'too individual'. It's been an area of debate for quite a while, but I personally think things are mostly fine right now. Some classes do need a bit of tweaking, but those will come around... some day. biggrin

Balancing really isn't fully possible, I agree. A lack of change can make things stagnant, and people who dislike their classes can either adjust to it or make new characters. Change, on the other hand, is always bound to irritate some portion of the player population; buff one class, another class starts screaming "Nerf that class, and/or buff my class!". The devs just can't win, there.

People have always told me that I'm easily amused. Tell them that I think it's an asset, as I don't have to rely too greatly on other people for entertainment. When you put your entertainment needs in someone else's hands (including Ankama's), it's always bound to be a roller-coaster ride. Some of Ankama's changes make me cringe (+6 range limit from equips? really?!), but it's just a part of the "entertainment outsourcing" package, if you will.

It's kind of like... food. If you rely on other people for your food, you may not always like the taste. Free food is nice, but can be worse because you have no right to complain when you contributed nothing; you can only choose to eat it or not. When you do pay for food, you still get a difference in quality among your sources -- and each of those sources can individually decide whether or not your complaints are valid enough for any sort of compensation. Dofus is a bit more like a buffet line, where there's lots of different things for the masses to eat; you pick the meals you want, and you eat them and enjoy them and ignore the rest (except for their faint odor, perhaps). You can make suggestions to the restaurant to add or alter certain foods, but they decide whether or not they will implement these changes.

Making comments like, "You chefs are morons, all of your food tastes like shit! I hope you failures all scald yourselves with hot cooking oil!" is just an invitation to add unpleasant surprises to your next meal. People with wild imaginations can (and should) forget I wrote that.

Incidentally, I'm not a terribly picky eater, either. And I'm hungry now. *poof*
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And the usual suspects arrive like flocks of geese to honk away but say absolutely nothing constructive but to parrot their masters while deriding the opinions of the majority of players.

Oh and by the way; I WAS a Marine who listened to the same bullswaddle every time someone wanted us to take some ground with not much more than sinister leers and bad intention. You might be some big cheese at this game but stay away from the grownups lest they take the time to squish your infantile attempt at intellectual discourse. Most, if not all things have real-life reflections from which one might drawn reasonable presumptions based upon genuine experiences.

Okay, back to being angry again:

If you have to ask then you just don't get it. You sure you don't work at the Pentagon? NOTHING, absolutely nothing can justify angering the money makers (us) like this has. Imagine Ford demanding that everyone purchase cars with 4 cylinder engines because the roads need "balancing". All one need do is have a look at all of the abandoned houses and paddocks to see how well your masters have done lately in pleasing their clientele.

Crickets.

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quickben|2012-09-13 12:26:48
If you have to ask then you just don't get it

On the contrary: your reply sounds like a load of bull.

It's a simple question.

Answer it. Yes or no?
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Is it re-balancing dopples? Yes
Is that what it should be called? No

"Re-balancing" would only say it will be somehow changed, not at all in what manner, so "nerf" is a much
better description for when the "re-balancing" is mainly a diminishing of usefulness/power.
The same is obviously true the other way around if something is altered to empower it, "buffed" might be
the preferred word instead of "re-balancing".

His argument stands, as what he argued was that "re-balancing" is an imprecise description of the actions
taken, "wishy-washy" if you will and that it is preferred to call things what they are for clarity.

Your argument falls in this case Leduruk, missing the point made you repeat the wording as proof it was
not a bad way to word things, while it still is.

The problem with imprecise choice off words in this context is that it hides the intentions, if it is to actually
balance things towards their counterparts, empower them or diminish them in general, to argue these
changes it helps to have the intentions clear.

It also helps to be clear for things like google translate and as Ankama isn't exactly full of native English
speakers so pointing out that they could do better and how to do so is constructive criticism.
If they use vague wordings things will inevitably be miss-understood.

Good communication is key after all and clarity is key for good communication.

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Some classes were nerfed, some arguably were buffed. Collectively, the classes were balanced. I think that Seyroth spelled out their intentions very clearly in the devblog without being wishy-washy.

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Gleffs|2012-09-14 08:50:53
Is it re-balancing dopples? Yes
Is that what it should be called? No

You admit that it is a re-balancing.

That you want to call it something else, does not change the fact that it is still a re-balancing.

And can be called a re-balancing.

Gleffs|2012-09-14 08:50:53
His argument stands, as what he argued was that "re-balancing" is an imprecise description of the actions taken, "wishy-washy" if you will and that it is preferred to call things what they are for clarity

There are two arguments here:

#1 That it is 'wishy-washy.'

#2 That it is an imprecise description.

The 1st was his argument. The 2nd is yours.

Let's start with the 2nd: you already demolished your own argument by admitting that it is in fact a re-balancing and is thus a precise description of what it is.

As for the 1st: I specifically gave him a simple question designed to be a trap. A trap that he knows he could not answer without making himself look like a hypocrite.

Gleffs|2012-09-14 08:50:53
"Re-balancing" would only say it will be somehow changed, not at all in what manner

'Re-balancing' is the 'intention.'

And the 'manner' of achieving that intention, is posted in the details.

Gleffs|2012-09-14 08:50:53
The problem with imprecise choice off words in this context is that it hides the intentions, if it is to actually balance things towards their counterparts, empower them or diminish them in general, to argue these changes it helps to have the intentions clear.

You realize you are actually agreeing to call it a 're-balancing' here?

Their intention is to re-balance. And the manner in which they achieve that is thru nerfs & buffs.

If you want the intentions to be clear, then you want to call it a re-balancing.

__________________________

Here's the argument in a nutshell:

I believe it's valid to call it a re-balancing or a nerf.

While you think it should only be called a nerf.


Now since I have no problem with anyone calling it a nerf, this gives me the upper hand.

Since I don't have to deny that it is a nerf.

On the other hand: you have the problem of trying to stop people from calling a spade, a spade.

To make it worse: you can't even deny that it is a re-balancing.

This puts you in a bad position against someone with the upper hand.

.
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Remember the first time you reached level 100? It was a massive feat worthy of the rewards! Access to the level 100 spell, able to level your starter spells and class spell to 6, and the incredibly useful +1 base AP.

I do not understand why, especially in light of the nerfing summoned dopples will get, Ankama does not give level 200s a +1 base MP. Considering all the time, effort, and grindgrindgrind put into reaching that level, why not put it on par with the accomplishment of reaching level 100?

And yes, I said nerf. Reducing the max HP of a summon IS a nerf, let alone swapping strategic spells out.

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Aetnaria|2012-09-14 16:33:05
And yes, I said nerf. Reducing the max HP of a summon IS a nerf

No one said you can't call it a nerf.
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please explain how they ever turn the tide of a battle they are only useful as meat shield

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I have been level 199 for a long time, i can tell you that, reaching level 200 now has absolutely no appeal for me dopples have never hit high in anything and never really swayed fights, you all saw ghoult, the dopples were being 1 hitted by osas, now at level 200 i get a summon with low enough hp to just be 1 hitted by a 4 ap or 5 ap spell or weapon when it costed me 6 ap to summon its not even worth the ap to summon it now. Being a xelor i have been subject to what most players called 'the biggest class nerf of all time' and i always thought well maybe at 200 i can just enjoy the game, iv had to improve my equipment beyond other players to play at the same level because my class is underpowered, but i stick to it because its my character but now to refer to my oriogional point i never have any intention of reaching level 200i was expecting a buff, not for all summoned dopples to get steald. This is my opinion if i see them in action and they some how magically dont suck then well played but from this i see nothing good coming up.
Papz 90%to guild since 199
currently on 25%

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What is the point of level 200 anymore. Im 199 and in Engame set and my motivation for all this god-damned grinding was the all Class Dopple, with that getting nerfed my motivation is beginning to fade away and so is my will to play Dofus.

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silly change imo, you should have an advantage over a 199, simply because you put the hard yards in and made it to 200, soon they wouldve got the advantage, instead dofus ruined dopples.

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Ankama you just nerf evrything.

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Just look at the awesome damage my level 200 spell does:

[11:09] Sacrier Dopple casts Absorption.[11:09] Ecaflip Dopple: -21 HP.

So my reward for getting to level 200 is now an slightly different aura, level 6 BTM (not that I'll ever use it 5 times a turn) and a spell (Summoning of Dopple) that I will never ever use again.

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Unless I have my base stats wrong, Sacrier Dopple does 27-40 fire damage with level 1 Absorption. If you maxed it, it would be doing 92-108 with level 6 Absorption.

Lvl 6 Sacrier Dopple
300 Strength, 300 Intelligence, 300 Chance

Fury: 36-52* Water Damage (+8 damage)
Sacrier Foot: 64-72* Earth Steal (dodge debuff)
Absorption: 92-108 Fire Steal

*possible 10% increase due to aoe

You would expect the Dopple to use 2x Sac Foot and 1x Absorption when using all of its AP efficiently, that gives you about 220-252 steal damage for 6AP at a range greater than a Sacrier can hit. That's 39.33 damage per AP on the first turn alone that comes with a debuff, as well as a BTM/PS target that is going to absorb 1,000+ damage.

That and the fact that Level 6 BTM drops to 1AP cost, Sacriers are one of the classes that benefit the most from reaching 200.

EDIT: This post was made with stat assumptions based on outdated wiki, I am on the test server thoroughly testing the stats and damages.

EDIT 2: Updated numbers in post, updated Dofus Wiki. Base stats discovered with Brokle and Power.

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I am not going to lie to you guys, whoever decides to make their dopple level 6 after the update has an IQ of -40. No jokes.

The dopples just get one turned, why the heck would anyone even place one, especially the sacrier dopple that has to get next to someone (cc range) just so it could deal an amazing damage of.....*drum roll*..... 50-100!

Seriously what's the point of hitting level 200 after the dopple update, just a big waste of time, i'd rather go on and leech my guild instead of wasting my time and spell points on a useless dopple that gets owned easily.

~ Ultimate-Sensation - Proud Shikian Sacrier - Level 200

surgray|2012-09-29 14:53:41
Unless I have my base stats wrong, Sacrier Dopple does 21-31 fire damage with level 1 Absorption. If you maxed it, it would be doing 98-116 with level 6 Absorption.

Lvl 6 Sacrier Dopple
Sacrier Foot: 73-82* Earth Steal (-15 dodge)
Fury: 41-59* Water Damage (+8 Damage)
Absorption: 98-116 Fire Steal

*possible 10% increase due to aoe

You would expect the Dopple to use 2x Sac Foot and 1x Absorption when using all of its AP efficiently, that gives you about 244-280 steal damage for 6AP at a range greater than a Sacrier can hit. That's 44 damage per AP on the first turn alone that comes with a debuff, as well as a BTM/PS target that is going to absorb 1,000+ damage.

That and the fact that Level 6 BTM drops to 1AP cost, Sacriers are one of the classes that benefit the most from reaching 200.

No offense, but I don't really care about an extra 100 damage in a turn, my dopple can still easily get 1 turned. I loved the old one where it used to actually attract and be useful for once. I'd rather go put my spell points on something other than a dopple I never even use in the fights.

~ Ultimate-Sensation - Proud Shikian Sacrier - Level 200
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surgray|2012-09-29 14:53:41
Unless I have my base stats wrong, Sacrier Dopple does 27-40 fire damage with level 1 Absorption. If you maxed it, it would be doing 92-108 with level 6 Absorption.

Lvl 6 Sacrier Dopple
300 Strength, 300 Intelligence, 300 Chance

Fury: 36-52* Water Damage (+8 damage)
Sacrier Foot: 64-72* Earth Steal (dodge debuff)
Absorption: 92-108 Fire Steal

*possible 10% increase due to aoe

You would expect the Dopple to use 2x Sac Foot and 1x Absorption when using all of its AP efficiently, that gives you about 220-252 steal damage for 6AP at a range greater than a Sacrier can hit. That's 39.33 damage per AP on the first turn alone that comes with a debuff, as well as a BTM/PS target that is going to absorb 1,000+ damage.

That and the fact that Level 6 BTM drops to 1AP cost, Sacriers are one of the classes that benefit the most from reaching 200.

EDIT: This post was made with stat assumptions based on outdated wiki, I am on the test server thoroughly testing the stats and damages.

EDIT 2: Updated numbers in post, updated Dofus Wiki. Base stats discovered with Brokle and Power.

No matter how much you try to make it shine, the benefits you gain from being level 200 are not worth anywhere near the 3.7 billion xp it takes to get there from 199.
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