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The Magical Orb: a new start!

By #[Nerodos] - ADMIN - May 23, 2014, 17:15:00
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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:22:55
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:16:56
If your idea of p2w is paying giving you any kind of advantage. Every game in the world is p2w.
No there are free games and single payment games that are not pay to win. Any subscription games that only offer subscription as payment but does not allow multi accounting will qualify as a non P2W game.

If I understand you correctly you're saying the sole "fact" of being allowed to multi account turns Dofus "Pay 2 Win"?
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Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:26:45
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:22:55
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:16:56
If your idea of p2w is paying giving you any kind of advantage. Every game in the world is p2w.
No there are free games and single payment games that are not pay to win. Any subscription games that only offer subscription as payment but does not allow multi accounting will qualify as a non P2W game.

If I understand you correctly you're saying the sole "fact" of being allowed to multi account turns Dofus "Pay 2 Win"?
Technically, yes. A P2P P2W.
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So your saying there is nobody playing dofus on multiple accounts that doesn't pay?
let me rephrase

Are you saying someone can't multi account on dofus and "WIN" without paying?
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Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:33:22
So your saying there is nobody playing dofus on multiple accounts that doesn't pay?
Subscriptions are paid. Ogrines are paid by sellers, so yes, multiple accounts are paid by those who have big wallets in order to win.

While those who bought ogrines do not pay to win, those who sold those ogrines did pay to win. Either way you cut it, someone paid to win, be it the direct buyer or the indirect seller.
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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:37:57
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:33:22
So your saying there is nobody playing dofus on multiple accounts that doesn't pay?
Subscriptions are paid. Ogrines are paid by sellers, so yes, multiple accounts are paid by those who have big wallets in order to win.

While those who bought ogrines do not pay to win, those who sold those ogrines did pay to win. Either way you cut it, someone paid to win, be it the direct buyer or the indirect seller.
"SOMEONE" as in "ANYONE"
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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:22:55
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:16:56
If your idea of p2w is paying giving you any kind of advantage. Every game in the world is p2w.
No there are free games and single payment games that are not pay to win. Any subscription games that only offer subscription as payment but does not allow multi accounting will qualify as a non P2W game.


Gunner, we've discussed this in previous threads about Pay to Win as a definition.

You have two players, X and Y.

X has been playing for a long time, they have everything that an epic-level, end game character should have. They've never depending on other people, everything that X wears, X crafted or dropped and everything mageable, X has maged to perfection, including some insane exomages (because X has been around for ages), so all of X's stats are exactly as optimal as they possibly can be.

X has never purchased a single kama using Ogrines, only subscription.

Now, player Y joined a few months ago, and they've got money to burn. Y has been purchasing Ogrines by the truckload and trading them for kamas, which Y uses to pay other higher-level characters to leech him up to 200, and buy all sorts of equipment, including some of those fancy exomages until lo and behold! Now Y is exactly as optimal as X.

Now, say X and Y decide to have a challenge. They are both optimal, and although Y isn't too bad for someone who just started a few months ago, X ekes out a win on tactics.

In a pay-to-win game, Y would be able to then go on the store and buy himself an Uber Supercharger Weapon of Smashing - which would give Y +50 more in every stat above what X can achieve - and then go beat the stuffing out of X, and X would not be able to do anything about it without coughing up cash, because Y has paid to win.

In Dofus, you simply can't do that. No amount of Ogrines is going to add another extra +50 (or even an extra +1) to everything to Y's already perfectly maged gear.

Speed of progression is not a good indicator of whether or not a game is Pay to Win. There are many factors that determine how quickly a specific player can level up, gain kamas, or beat dungeons.

Let's look at another example - A new player (let's call them Player Noob) who is friends with someone (let's call them Player Leet) who is incredibly rich in-game.

Player Leet buys Player Noob all their gear, Player Leet leeches Player Noob through dungeons, helps Player Noob complete quests, gives Player Noob access to Player Leet's guild full of other friendly epic-level players who help Player Noob with professions, etc, all for free. Because of this, Player Noob reaches level 200 with great gear, lots of achievements complete, dungeons conquered, etc, all within just a few months, and basically for free.

Does the experience of Player Noob mean that Dofus is a Friend to Win game? In other words, does the fact that Player Noob was able to become high-level easily thanks to his friends mean that all players are required to have rich friends in order to win?

Clearly, no. Nor does it mean that players who don't have rich friends are playing incorrectly or won't be able to progress in their own quests or pursuits. It's all about the way each player spends their time, how much time they have to spend, and how much time they are willing to spend on the game without friends (or, to bring this back to the topic of the thread, without purchasing kamas/emporium items).

TL;DR - Speedy progression by other players does not invalidate the progression of those who choose not to use shortcuts of any kind.
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Score : 25924
Izmar|2014-05-26 12:42:03
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:22:55
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:16:56
If your idea of p2w is paying giving you any kind of advantage. Every game in the world is p2w.
No there are free games and single payment games that are not pay to win. Any subscription games that only offer subscription as payment but does not allow multi accounting will qualify as a non P2W game.


Gunner, we've discussed this in previous threads about Pay to Win as a definition.

You have two players, X and Y.

X has been playing for a long time, they have everything that an epic-level, end game character should have. They've never depending on other people, everything that X wears, X crafted or dropped and everything mageable, X has maged to perfection, including some insane exomages (because X has been around for ages), so all of X's stats are exactly as optimal as they possibly can be.

X has never purchased a single kama using Ogrines, only subscription.

Now, player Y joined a few months ago, and they've got money to burn. Y has been purchasing Ogrines by the truckload and trading them for kamas, which Y uses to pay other higher-level characters to leech him up to 200, and buy all sorts of equipment, including some of those fancy exomages until lo and behold! Now Y is exactly as optimal as X.

Now, say X and Y decide to have a challenge. They are both optimal, and although Y isn't too bad for someone who just started a few months ago, X ekes out a win on tactics.

In a pay-to-win game, Y would be able to then go on the store and buy himself an Uber Supercharger Weapon of Smashing - which would give Y +50 more in every stat above what X can achieve - and the go beat the stuffing out of X, and X would not be able to do anything about it without coughing up cash, because Y has paid to win.

In Dofus, you simply can't do that. No amount of Ogrines is going to add another extra +50 (or even an extra +1) to everything to Y's already perfectly maged gear.

Speed of progression is not a good indicator of whether or not a game is Pay to Win. There are many factors that determine how quickly a specific player can level up, gain kamas, or beat dungeons.

Let's look at another example - A new player (let's call them Player Noob) who is friends with someone (let's call them Player Leet) who is incredibly rich in-game.

Player Leet buys Player Noob all their gear, Player Leet leeches Player Noob through dungeons, helps Player Noob complete quests, gives Player Noob access to Player Leet's guild full of other friendly epic-level players who help Player Noob with professions, etc, all for free. Because of this, Player Noob reaches level 200 with great gear, lots of achievements complete, dungeons conquered, etc, all within just a few months, and basically for free.

Does the experience of Player Noob mean that Dofus is a Friend to Win game? In other words, does the fact that Player Noob was able to become high-level easily thanks to his friends mean that all players are required to have rich friends in order to win?

Clearly, no. Nor does it mean that players who don't have rich friends are playing incorrectly or won't be able to progress in their own quests or pursuits. It's all about the way each player spends their time, how much time they have to spend, and how much time they are willing to spend on the game without friends (or, to bring this back to the topic of the thread, without purchasing kamas/emporium items).

TL;DR - Speedy progression by other players does not invalidate the progression of those who choose not to use shortcuts of any kind.
How about paying for 2 account versus 1 player paying for 1 account. 2 vs 1 account, would someone who paid for 2 account win over someone who only paid for 1?
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Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.

And we all have to accept that p2w is not the end of the world.

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Score : 1284

Honestly! Dofus is NOT pay to win!

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justapie|2014-05-26 12:51:28
Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.

And we all have to accept that p2w is not the end of the world.
I am used to it. It is really hard to accept reality. It is easier to just believe that this game is not P2W but it really is. It is indeed not the end of the world even if dofus is a P2W game.

Everyone wants to think that they are great in a game that is not a P2W, which is why noone wants to accept the fact that dofus is one. Everyone wants to think they are great because of their achievements and awesomeness, and not because they bought billions of kamas in those 3rd party kama selling sites. I'm not saying every great players buys kamas, all I am saying is that there are those who do, clearly evident from the existence of botting companies in this game. After all, if nobody buys billions of kamas, with real money, botters will not prosper.

And while it is not P2W for level 200 with the best gears there is, it is still pay to win for those who do not have the best gears yet. So let's just say it is P2W for the 99% of the playerbase.
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Gunner may have a point especially if multi accounting wasn't always allowed. Not to bring another topic into this one but the VIP server "solo-only server" would be a cure for any long time veteran who feels squeezed by multi accounting noobs.

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How about paying for 2 account versus 1 player paying for 1 account. 2 vs 1 account, would someone who paid for 2 account win over someone who only paid for 1?


As many have pointed out, multiaccounting is another tool that depends on how you use it. Additional gear is costly, managing multiple clients is not for everyone, and it's just more costly in general.

But, how is it that much different from two family members with one account each, playing as a team? If they are playing together constantly, sharing gear, sharing drops, sharing kamas, and they work well and quickly together, they are paying the same as someone with two accounts, and getting the same amount of returns.

Collectively, they are each paying more, but they are receiving rewards in proportion to their investment of time and effort in the game. The act of subscribing a second account is not immediately a "win" in Dofus. One must be able to use that second account well in order to help speed progression. One must gain the knowledge to tactically use the second account to be able to beat dungeons with it.

But again... the speed of one player's progression through the game is not the yardstick by which we must measure "winning" because there are so many factors that may contribute to how quickly a player can advance. For example, if a player subscribes a team of 8, but their computer blows up the next day and they cannot afford a new computer for six months, a solo player will be able to greatly out-pace that multiaccounter's progression.

If the speed/efficiency of a multiaccounter displeases you, I would try the following:

Ask yourself: why am I angry when I see others leveling more quickly than I do? Is there specific content that I want to reach? Will that content still be there for me to play when I reach the appropriate level? Do I want to be closer to the cutting edge of new content for economic advantages? How could I solve this problem without resorting to multiaccounting?

I think you'll tend to find that there are several answers that don't involve multi-accounting, but most of them involve getting involved socially with other players for the purpose of mutual benefit, or using the Sidekick system to give yourself a second character without a second account.
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justapie|2014-05-26 12:51:28
Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.


This is not "my" construction, it is the accepted definition of the gaming industry.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.


But again, you are defining "winning" as "getting epic before other players who have been playing longer." I'm pointing out that while this might be a "win" for some, it is not necessarily the "win" of the game. If you are facing someone with equal gear, no matter how you got that gear, tactics and skill will win the day.

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I actually think Gunner has a point, If you can now all of a sudden pay and get 8 maxed accounts. I could definitely understand a p2w argument there

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Arcade11|2014-05-26 13:14:19
I actually think Gunner has a point, If you can now all of a sudden pay and get 8 maxed accounts. I could definitely understand a p2w argument there

If people are purchasing maxed accounts, that is not permitted by the Terms and Conditions.

You can't call the game Pay to Win if you are using "Pay" to mean "cheating." >_>
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Score : 1284
Now, player Y joined a few months ago, and they've got money to burn. Y has been purchasing Ogrines by the truckload and trading them for kamas, which Y uses to pay other higher-level characters to leech him up to 200, and buy all sorts of equipment, including some of those fancy exomages until lo and behold! Now Y is exactly as optimal as X.

This what I mean by pay.

It doesn't help all the content is made for 4-8 players and multi accounters are not very friendly.
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Arcade11|2014-05-26 13:19:45
Now, player Y joined a few months ago, and they've got money to burn. Y has been purchasing Ogrines by the truckload and trading them for kamas, which Y uses to pay other higher-level characters to leech him up to 200, and buy all sorts of equipment, including some of those fancy exomages until lo and behold! Now Y is exactly as optimal as X.

This what I mean by pay.

It doesn't help all the content is made for 4-8 players and multi accounters are not very friendly.

But again, you are talking about speed of progression, not actual "winning."

As for content being made for 4-8 players, if you have 500 achievement points (or you have completed Protect and Scourge once) and you can find one other player with a Sidekick, you have enough characters to make it through most content.
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Izmar|2014-05-26 13:08:20
As many have pointed out, multiaccounting is another tool that depends on how you use it. Additional gear is costly, managing multiple clients is not for everyone, and it's just more costly in general.

But, how is it that much different from two family members with one account each, playing as a team? If they are playing together constantly, sharing gear, sharing drops, sharing kamas, and they work well and quickly together, they are paying the same as someone with two accounts, and getting the same amount of returns.

Collectively, they are each paying more, but they are receiving rewards in proportion to their investment of time and effort in the game. The act of subscribing a second account is not immediately a "win" in Dofus. One must be able to use that second account well in order to help speed progression. One must gain the knowledge to tactically use the second account to be able to beat dungeons with it.
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiply that by 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?

Izmar|2014-05-26 13:08:20
But again... the speed of one player's progression through the game is not the yardstick by which we must measure "winning" because there are so many factors that may contribute to how quickly a player can advance. For example, if a player subscribes a team of 8, but their computer blows up the next day and they cannot afford a new computer for six months, a solo player will be able to greatly out-pace that multiaccounter's progression.
Seriously? You want to compare a solo accounter to someone whose computer blows up and say that solo accounters have an advantage? But what if his computer did not blows up or what if he has so much money that he bought 100 computers? Who do you think will win?

Izmar|2014-05-26 13:08:20
If the speed/efficiency of a multiaccounter displeases you, I would try the following:

Ask yourself: why am I angry when I see others leveling more quickly than I do? Is there specific content that I want to reach? Will that content still be there for me to play when I reach the appropriate level? Do I want to be closer to the cutting edge of new content for economic advantages? How could I solve this problem without resorting to multiaccounting?

I think you'll tend to find that there are several answers that don't involve multi-accounting, but most of them involve getting involved socially with other players for the purpose of mutual benefit, or using the Sidekick system to give yourself a second character without a second account.
You must be mistaking me for someone who is displeases with the fast leveling of multi-accounters, I assure you I am not displeased at all. In fact even if I prefer solo accounting, I like the concept of multi-accounting and I believe it is one of the best things about dofus along with the wisdom/leeching mechanics.

No! I do not find MA-ing to be bad in general. All I am saying is that MA'ing is the P2P version of P2W (which is also not bad at all). I believe in the value of effort = reward so I do not mind if multi-accounters are paying to win.
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Izmar|2014-05-26 13:11:12
justapie|2014-05-26 12:51:28
Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.


This is not "my" construction, it is the accepted definition of the gaming industry.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.


But again, you are defining "winning" as "getting epic before other players who have been playing longer."

Yes, an article from game-wisdom.com (never heard of it) published a few months ago with 0 comments is the definitive definition of p2w in gaming. Thank god we've cleared that up. All scholastic debate can be ended. Whew.

At any rate, I win in PvP it's because I got epic faster than another player, or I lose. That is true on a grand scale of things. It is not fun to lose to someone who worked for 8-9 hours to get the gear that it took you years to get. Time is valuable. Most of us have spent enough time playing DOFUS that we could have advanced degrees in any subject by now.

Which is why I'm ok with the game being p2w. People should not have to sacrifice 5+ hours a day to be competitive in a game they like. But it is p2w.

What is one of the main reasons it sucks so bad when you guys nerf a class? Because then we have to change our gear to fit a new build. That takes time or money. Those who have money will invest it to change gear faster than those with no money. So much faster that it will be essentially impossible for someone who grinds through the game to keep up. And then at the next change, you get the most powerful gear again, before the other player even caught up. Of course this applies whenever new gear is introduced or anything as well.

The player who grinds can not realistically beat the player that does not grind, and buys orgrines.

On my feca, I have all my spells and stats scrolled, and a set that costs at least 400mk if you include dofuses. And when you update fecas, I'll probably have to change that entire set to be competitive. That takes time or kamas. And even without changes, despite that, I'm still very far away from getting a vulbis, achievements, etc. If I were to not buy origines (I certainly don't intent to, I have life going on right now, but, ya know, as an example), by the time I got any of that, there would be a new set to reach for.

The point is, time matters. It is important. When you buy ogrines, you buy time. And that's great, because people have things to do. But to say the person who does not buy ogrines can realistically ever catch up to with a person who does is absurd, especially if we are talking about people with healthy, productive lives. Which should be encouraged.

Your argument holds water in a game that has a definite endpoint and is played solo. You play the game and you progress and it's fun. But that is not dofus. Dofus is competitive, and ever changing. The time advantage you get when you buy ogines.

If you play dofus as a solo game, fine. But if you want to compete in even the slightest, ogrines are a clear and huge advantage.

Even if a person spends 16 hours a day playing dofus, guess what? I can play 16 hours a day, AND buy ogrines. And steamroll the poorer player with my exo'd treadfast set, vulbis, full scrolls, and better looks.

Or I can never play, and just buy more ogrines.
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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:08:20
As many have pointed out, multiaccounting is another tool that depends on how you use it. Additional gear is costly, managing multiple clients is not for everyone, and it's just more costly in general.

But, how is it that much different from two family members with one account each, playing as a team? If they are playing together constantly, sharing gear, sharing drops, sharing kamas, and they work well and quickly together, they are paying the same as someone with two accounts, and getting the same amount of returns.

Collectively, they are each paying more, but they are receiving rewards in proportion to their investment of time and effort in the game. The act of subscribing a second account is not immediately a "win" in Dofus. One must be able to use that second account well in order to help speed progression. One must gain the knowledge to tactically use the second account to be able to beat dungeons with it.
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.

Izmar|2014-05-26 13:08:20
But again... the speed of one player's progression through the game is not the yardstick by which we must measure "winning" because there are so many factors that may contribute to how quickly a player can advance. For example, if a player subscribes a team of 8, but their computer blows up the next day and they cannot afford a new computer for six months, a solo player will be able to greatly out-pace that multiaccounter's progression.
Seriously? You want to compare a solo accounter to someone whose computer blows up and say that solo accounters have an advantage? But what if his computer did not blows up or what if he has so much money that he bought 100 computers? Who do you think will win?


This is what I'm saying. It's ridiculous to compare the speed of players' progression to determine some sort of esoteric victory. I used a ridiculous example to show just how much chance and personal circumstances can affect someone's progress.
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