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The Magical Orb: a new start!

By #[Nerodos] - ADMIN - May 23, 2014, 17:15:00
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justapie|2014-05-26 13:32:12
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:11:12
justapie|2014-05-26 12:51:28
Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.


This is not "my" construction, it is the accepted definition of the gaming industry.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.


But again, you are defining "winning" as "getting epic before other players who have been playing longer."

Yes, an article from game-wisdom.com (never heard of it) published a few months ago with 0 comments is the definitive definition of p2w in gaming. Thank god we've cleared that up. All scholastic debate can be ended. Whew.

At any rate, I win in PvP it's because I got epic faster than another player, or I lose. That is true on a grand scale of things. It is not fun to lose to someone who worked for 8-9 hours to get the gear that it took you years to get. Time is valuable. Most of us have spent enough time playing DOFUS that we could have advanced degrees in any subject by now.

Which is why I'm ok with the game being p2w. People should not have to sacrifice 5+ hours a day to be competitive in a game they like. But it is p2w.

What is one of the main reasons it sucks so bad when you guys nerf a class? Because then we have to change our gear to fit a new build. That takes time or money. Those who have money will invest it to change gear faster than those with no money. So much faster that it will be essentially impossible for someone who grinds through the game to keep up. And then at the next change, you get the most powerful gear again, before the other player even caught up. Of course this applies whenever new gear is introduced or anything as well.

The player who grinds can not realistically beat the player that does not grind, and buys orgrines.

On my feca, I have all my spells and stats scrolled, and a set that costs at least 400mk if you include dofuses. And when you update fecas, I'll probably have to change that entire set to be competitive. That takes time or kamas. And even without changes, despite that, I'm still very far away from getting a vulbis, achievements, etc. If I were to not buy origines (I certainly don't intent to, I have life going on right now, but, ya know, as an example), by the time I got any of that, there would be a new set to reach for.

The point is, time matters. It is important. When you buy ogrines, you buy time. And that's great, because people have things to do. But to say the person who does not buy ogrines can realistically ever catch up to with a person who does is absurd, especially if we are talking about people with healthy, productive lives. Which should be encouraged.

Your argument holds water in a game that has a definite endpoint and is played solo. You play the game and you progress and it's fun. But that is not dofus. Dofus is competitive, and ever changing. The time advantage you get when you buy ogines.

If you play dofus as a solo game, fine. But if you want to compete in even the slightest, ogrines are a clear and huge advantage.

Even if a person spends 16 hours a day playing dofus, guess what? I can play 16 hours a day, AND buy ogrines. And steamroll the poorer player with my exo'd treadfast set, vulbis, full scrolls, and better looks.

Or I can never play, and just buy more ogrines.
I agree

I didn't see it until it was explained but dofus is pay 2 win. I still enjoy playing anyway.
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Score : 25914
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters.

Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait.

And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?

Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44

Seriously? You want to compare a solo accounter to someone whose computer blows up and say that solo accounters have an advantage? But what if his computer did not blows up or what if he has so much money that he bought 100 computers? Who do you think will win?


This is what I'm saying. It's ridiculous to compare the speed of players' progression to determine some sort of esoteric victory. I used a ridiculous example to show just how much chance and personal circumstances can affect someone's progress.

And yet, without your ridiculous circumstances of MA computer blowing up, it still all boils down to multi-accounter having gaming advantage over solo accounters.
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Score : 1284
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters. Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait. And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?
Your totally correct, I was wrong. I am not perfect and don't have a problem changing my stance when appropriate. Dofus is Pay 2 Win and Multi accounting is bad for single accounters.
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Score : 918
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:49:28
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters.

Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait.

And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?
Find ingame friends and beat all the MAs!

 
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Score : 1692
NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 13:59:14
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:49:28
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters.

Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait.

And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?
Find ingame friends and beat all the MAs!

To be fair to gunner, that poster you just made, that I think was you making fun of him, is actually what MAers are doing, and what he is arguing against.
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Score : 1284
NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 13:59:14
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:49:28
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters.

Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait.

And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?
Find ingame friends and beat all the MAs!

If they didn't allow people to multi account, there would be ALOT more friends to find.
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Score : 918
justapie|2014-05-26 14:01:58
NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 13:59:14
Find ingame friends and beat all the MAs!

To be fair to gunner, that poster you just made, that I think was you making fun of him, is actually what MAers are doing, and what he is arguing against.
I know.
With Gunner, this is an endless discussion because there are many interpretations of the concept of P2W games, there is not official definition, so it's subjective.
Gunner is saying true things but as the concept of P2W is not officialy clear by a dictionary or something else, so nobody can be sure of categorizing those true statements into the P2W features.
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Score : 1284

Pay 2 Win to me means can someone "Pay" to Over come someone else's time and experienced and be better then them "WIN"

I think giving both multi account and justapie example's that would be correct about dofus. You can pay to catch up and you can keep paying to get ahead. Which makes Dofus Pay 2 Win.

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justapie|2014-05-26 13:32:12
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:11:12
justapie|2014-05-26 12:51:28
Izmar, I like the bringing down the pain on gannar, but this game is p2w. Even under your construction of p2w, where only inaccessible content counts as p2w, the gear caps, in terms of how good gear can theoretically get in this game are so high/infinite, that probably 95% of players, even those who do buy tons of origins, will never even get close, even after playing for years. To those players it certainly is p2w.


This is not "my" construction, it is the accepted definition of the gaming industry.

Your definition is flawed though anyway. This game is clearly p2w, and has been since orgines introduction. I can buy gear that will allow me to destroy people who have grinded for years. And no amount of PvP experience and skill can realistically stop me.


But again, you are defining "winning" as "getting epic before other players who have been playing longer."

Yes, an article from game-wisdom.com (never heard of it) published a few months ago with 0 comments is the definitive definition of p2w in gaming. Thank god we've cleared that up. All scholastic debate can be ended. Whew.


Oh, so you'd like more sources?

Click here
How exactly do you define a "pay to win" item or option, and can you give a few examples of items that won't make the cut?

Andrei Yarantsau: Well, the first example that comes to mind is the legendary "Sword of a Thousand Truths" from the television show South Park. Seriously, though, many online shooter games sell weapons with slightly bigger magazines, a slightly greater chance of critical hits or slightly more damage for real world money. Also, cash shops in fantasy MMO games often offer items that increase item drop rates, scale hit rates or grant extra player protection.

Click here
Click here
For me pay to win is simple. If the game's market offers items with stat boosts and offer nothing of equal power that can be acquired through normal gameplay. If I can acquire the same level of potency as everyone else, without paying money, I don't consider it pay to win.

*The slow grind/difficulty curve/leveling seems intentionally retarded (slowed down) to irritate gamers into making purchases.

Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game.
I'm so glad I pay to win in Hearthstone for all my cards, or I wouldn't even have a shot at beating the actual good players!

Click here
While pay2win could be literally interpreted as "pay money and you get advantage" my definition is less broad. I would define it as "the point where not paying gives a significant disadvantage". When you reach the point where not paying means you either have to play ridiculous amounts to get a new weapon. If an opposing buys a weapon that is straight up better, but to a degree that barely influences the game, I don't feel it's "pay2win" even though by the literal meaning it is.

Most of these are questionaires that ask readers what they think P2W means, and most of them seem to come down on the side of my definition rather than the definition espoused by Gunner.




The player who grinds can not realistically beat the player that does not grind, and buys orgrines.

They can. It just takes more time. That is the trade-off that Ogrines allows. You can pay with time, or you can pay with money, but they will both get you there in the end.

And may I remind folks that Ankama introduced Ogrines to allow players who have no money to get everything in the game with their time. As Tot said, approximately 50% of Dofus players are not paying for subscriptions with money.

Players who are purchasing those "time skips" are trading players their money in order that those without money can have more time for free. So this isn't happening in a vacuum. Players who are selling Ogrines for kamas are actually giving those who would not have had any chance to advance at all (due to lack of subscription) the ability to try to "catch up" by paying with time instead of money.

If you play dofus as a solo game, fine. But if you want to compete in even the slightest, ogrines are a clear and huge advantage.

Even if a person spends 16 hours a day playing dofus, guess what? I can play 16 hours a day, AND buy ogrines. And steamroll the poorer player with my exo'd treadfast set, vulbis, full scrolls, and better looks.

Or I can never play, and just buy more ogrines.


But you can never buy a single item that will be better than what that player could eventually earn, if they spend enough time.

Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:49:28
Izmar|2014-05-26 13:33:44
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 13:25:53
Yes, MAing is a tool which gives advantage to those who knows how to use it. It does not guarantee a win, but an advantage. That is exactly what i am saying. Players are paying for extra accounts to gain an advantage over those who only pay for one. Now multiple that to 8 accounts and the advantage exponentially increases. Multi-accounters are technically paying to win.

Ok so we have 1 player who knows his characters well, and we have a multi-accounters who knows all his 8 characters well, who do you think will win in PvP and PvM?


But tell me, what does it harm the single accounter if someone else can beat content before them? Anyone who joined the game after 2005 must know that many, many other players have beaten content before them, and I've seen dozens of my friends who had more time to put into the game or who made different friends shoot ahead of my progress even though we joined at the same time, but that doesn't mean that their progress is "better" than mine. I could have "paid" more of my personal time to level more quickly or "paid" some of my independence to gain groups that would have made me level faster, but I chose not to.

That doesn't mean that they "win" and I do not.
It harms single accounters when the game's difficulty level is calibrated in such a way that it is fun for MA yet difficult for single accounters.

Even if you paid more time to level faster, you can never outpace someone who paid for more accounts. While you wait for your friends to do dungeon with you, a MA will be doing 100 dungeon runs as you wait.


And? The dungeons will still be there, the monsters will still be dropping the same loot, so what actual impact does that have on your dungeon run?

And technically, someone shooting ahead of your progress is winning over you. What else would you call it?


Life? Existence? Reality? If someone born on the same day as you is making more money than you today, have you "lost" at life? There are any number of circumstances that may have led them to the position that they are in and the position that you are in. Thinking about life (and about progress in a game) by that metric is just asking for unhappiness.

Make your own metrics and set your own goals. If you choose to only measure your success against the success of others, you'll always fail, because there's always someone cooler than you.



Ok, I'm going to have to stop quoting people because this is getting a little out-of-control, but let me just leave you with this:

I hear what some of you are saying about not feeling like the game is fun when you're playing solo. I can understand that. It can be tough to play alone! I'm a solo player, and always have been. I only team up with others rarely, and I love being independent. But let's look back at the history of the game. On the whole, Dofus has been consistently moving towards making things easier for solo players and small groups (adaptable dungeons, achievements, sidekicks, restrictions for MAs in PvP, etc).

It is much more feasible to be a solo player today than it was this time last year, or the year before that. We may not be there yet, but that's where we're heading, rather than towards greater difficulty for solo/non-paying players. That's not a game that is trying to require people to play with multiple accounts.
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Score : 25914

The only definition of P2W was based on the free to play models... It cannot be applied to dofus since dofus is using the subscription model.

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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 14:28:42
The only definition of P2W was based on the free to play models... It cannot be applied to dofus since dofus is using the subscription model.

One of the links I gave is specifically discussing WoW, which has the same subscription model (and also requires that players pay for expansions, which Dofus does not.)

Here's some quotes from that thread:

How do you define Pay to Win?

"Buying gear that cannot be obtained or has no equivalent in game that gives you an advantage"

"I define pay to win the same as Wombat, which is to say purchasing gear, items, skills or whatnot that are not available through any other means than purchasing that give you an advantage..."

"Pay to Win would be when they introduce gear (or otherwise similar means) to attain stats that give you an actual gameplay advantage over everyone else, and that it can't be obtained without shelling out the real money."
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Score : 1692

I said nothing about MCers. None of your sources matter Izmar, there is no holy board of gamers that defines what P2w is. It is subjective. I could peruse the internet and find random people who agree with me. Who cares? My mom has a blog too.

But you have to admit the person that pays will have a huge advantage over the person who does not, even if you do not want to use the term 'pay to win'.

We both know the idea that a player could create an amazing set of gear is, while theoretically possible, realistically unattainable. Especially when a better set of gear is going to be just around the corner. I acknowledged that in my post. And while were going again with what is theoretically possible, the person who gets that super item through hard work, would again, have an even better item if they spent ogrines too. But I also mentioned that already.

My post actually changed a mind it seems, but your response to it was frankly offensive. You could have ignored it if you did not have anything to add, it seems you ignored the bulk of what I said, and repeated points that I had already addressed. That's frustrating.

Clearly you have a job to do, are speaking for a company, and will not admit the obvious. Fine.

And again, I think it's fine that the game is p2w . Clearly the orgrine system is good, for the reasons you mentioned. I just wish you would own up to that fact, because it is OK that dofus is pay to win.
I shouldn't need to repeat that either though.

Edit: you seriously used THIS quote? It's exactly within the argument I'm making for why dofus is p2w: Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game. ???  

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2: The game has artificially inflated unlock requirements AND there is a distinct difference of best gear vs worst gear (ex: newbie gear is obviously under-balanced vs the higher level stuff). Meaning, you can play for free, but it will take you a lot of grinding to get to the best gear; while a paying member can access the best stuff immediately. That is pay to win, because, despite the fact that a player can EVENTUALLY get the best gear for free, when facing artificially inflated unlock requirements, along with being under-powered due to sub-standard starting/early/free gear, the ability to grind that gear for free is practically impossible.

Someone posted this in your Daily Grind Article and I think Its pretty close to why I Feel dofus could be considered p2w.

Its also multiplied by the fact people are using 4 and 8 characters vs your one character.
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Score : 918
Arcade11|2014-05-26 14:18:06
Pay 2 Win to me means can someone "Pay" to Over come someone else's time and experienced and be better then them "WIN"

I think giving both multi account and justapie example's that would be correct about dofus. You can pay to catch up and you can keep paying to get ahead. Which makes Dofus Pay 2 Win.
Well, I think there are so many ways you can "Win" in Dofus.

You can Win by being the first the XP Ladder, Achievement Ladder, Kolo Ladder, Gultarminator tournament, having just a lot of Kamas, collecting all the Dofus eggs as possible, having all the proffesions at lv 100, etc, etc, etc.

So, who could give a precise and valid definition of "Win in Dofus"? Nobody, it's subjective.

A P2P game is not always a P2W game.

Definitions of P2W:

Wikipedia: "In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" games."

Urban Dictionary #1: "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

#2: "Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

Wo* game forum: "Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
Race changing in World of W******* is a Pay2Win exchange because it allows you to trade out a weak race for a stronger one. The argument here is if the person race changing did not invest the extra money they'd be playing worse."


A blog about a proposed model of P2W scale: (This guy thinks a P2P game is always a P2W)
"And if you ask for a precise definition of when a game is Pay2Win and when it isn't, you never get an answer. The inconvenient truth is that even if somebody rants against Pay2Win, he most likely loves another game in which progress and winning is also in some way depending on the amount of money spent. At best we can talk about a hypothetical scale of Pay2Win-iness on which all games could be placed; but there are very few games that are either 100% Pay2Win or 0% Pay2Win, and most games are somewhere in the middle of that scale."

"The games most likely to be accused of being Pay2Win are those which are free to play and then have an "item shop" or something which allows faster progress or other in-game advantages in exchange for money. If you want to place those on our Pay2Win scale, you'll notice something weird: For many of these games it is extremely hard to correlate progress with the amount of money spent. In most of the cases it is a matter of "you COULD pay to win", which doesn't automatically mean that somebody who has progressed more than others is automatically the person who paid most. In many cases it is possible to arrive at the exact same point in the game by either spending more time or more money, or even by being more skilled. If you look at forums for games like World of T****, you'll always see people who are adamant that somebody who landed a good hit on them must have been using money for "gold ammo" to do so; but if you study the game mechanics a bit you'll realize that it is very possible to one-shot another player by simply being very good at aiming with a tank and equipment you can easily get for no money at all. The Pay2Win argument often looks like a lame excuse for players to explain why they have lost or didn't progress that much. It is easier to claim somebody else is a "wallet warrior" than admitting that he might just be better at that game than you are."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Everybody knows that if you Pay (invest) real money in Dofus, you could win faster... but it's not required. But it's what I think.

I know your point, but nobody can assure/claim each other who's right and who's wrong.
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Score : 25914

Is it even possible to multi-account in WoW?

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NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 14:46:11
Arcade11|2014-05-26 14:18:06
Pay 2 Win to me means can someone "Pay" to Over come someone else's time and experienced and be better then them "WIN"

I think giving both multi account and justapie example's that would be correct about dofus. You can pay to catch up and you can keep paying to get ahead. Which makes Dofus Pay 2 Win.
Well, I think there are so many ways you can "Win" in Dofus.

You can Win by being the first the XP Ladder, Achievement Ladder, Kolo Ladder, Gultarminator tournament, having just a lot of Kamas, collecting all the Dofus eggs as possible, having all the proffesions at lv 100, etc, etc, etc.

So, who could give a precise and valid definition of "Win in Dofus"? Nobody, it's subjective.

A P2P game is not always a P2W game.

Definitions of P2W:

Wikipedia: "In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" games."

Urban Dictionary #1: "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

#2: "Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

Wo* game forum: "Pay2Win means any money exchange that will allow a player to gain a significant advantage over their opponents.
Race changing in World of W******* is a Pay2Win exchange because it allows you to trade out a weak race for a stronger one. The argument here is if the person race changing did not invest the extra money they'd be playing worse."


A blog about a proposed model of P2W scale: (This guy thinks a P2P game is always a P2W)
"And if you ask for a precise definition of when a game is Pay2Win and when it isn't, you never get an answer. The inconvenient truth is that even if somebody rants against Pay2Win, he most likely loves another game in which progress and winning is also in some way depending on the amount of money spent. At best we can talk about a hypothetical scale of Pay2Win-iness on which all games could be placed; but there are very few games that are either 100% Pay2Win or 0% Pay2Win, and most games are somewhere in the middle of that scale."

"The games most likely to be accused of being Pay2Win are those which are free to play and then have an "item shop" or something which allows faster progress or other in-game advantages in exchange for money. If you want to place those on our Pay2Win scale, you'll notice something weird: For many of these games it is extremely hard to correlate progress with the amount of money spent. In most of the cases it is a matter of "you COULD pay to win", which doesn't automatically mean that somebody who has progressed more than others is automatically the person who paid most. In many cases it is possible to arrive at the exact same point in the game by either spending more time or more money, or even by being more skilled. If you look at forums for games like World of T****, you'll always see people who are adamant that somebody who landed a good hit on them must have been using money for "gold ammo" to do so; but if you study the game mechanics a bit you'll realize that it is very possible to one-shot another player by simply being very good at aiming with a tank and equipment you can easily get for no money at all. The Pay2Win argument often looks like a lame excuse for players to explain why they have lost or didn't progress that much. It is easier to claim somebody else is a "wallet warrior" than admitting that he might just be better at that game than you are."
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Everybody knows that if you Pay (invest) real money in Dofus, you could win faster... but it's not required. But it's what I think.

I know your point, but nobody can assure/claim each other who's right and who's wrong.
Eh, most of those definitions are more in line with what I'm saying.

xD.

Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 14:47:49
Is it even possible to multi-account in WoW?
yes, multi-boxing is huge... and one of the reasons I've felt throughout your argument is not too compelling.
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justapie|2014-05-26 14:38:38
I said nothing about MCers. None of your sources matter Izmar, there is no holy board of gamers that defines what P2w is. It is subjective. I could peruse the internet and find people who agree with me. Who cares? My mom has a blog too.


I'm replying to Gunner too, please try not to confuse those or we'll really have a mess. ^^

Sure, you can have your own definition of what "Pay to Win" means (you can personally define any word to mean anything you want if you get right down to it), but if it's not in sync with what most people consider Pay to Win, you risk being misunderstood or ignored.

But you have to admit the person that pays will have a huge advantage over the person who does not, even if you do not want to use the term 'pay to win'.

We both know the idea that a player could create an amazing set of gear is, while theoretically possible, realistically unattainable. Especially when a better set of gear is going to be just around the corner. I acknowledged that in my post. And while were going again with what is theoretically possible, the person who gets that super item through hard work, would again, have an even better item if they spent ogrines too. But I also mentioned that already.

My post actually changed a mind it seems, but your response to it was frankly offensive. You could have ignored it if you did not have anything to add, it seems you ignored the bulk of what I said, and repeated points that I had already addressed. That's frustrating.


What can I say? I don't agree with what you think it means to win the game, or even the example that you gave.

I know and have talked to people who have earned huge amounts of kamas and thus enabled themselves to buy whatever gear they wanted simply by understanding market principles in the game and leveraging them intelligently rather than simply grinding away.

I've seen people who have used the strengths of their guilds and friends to rise to the top of the game even faster than people who have paid for Ogrines could have.

I really don't agree that the only way to make it to the top of the game efficiently is to grind for years or pay.

And either way, most people who buy kamas with Ogrines are not following the "path to uberness" that we've discussed in this topic. I've seen the numbers. There is a tiny percentage of people who buy large amounts, but most only spend a little here and there and other than that, play normally.

I do apologize for any offense I gave. I can understand your frustration in needing to re-gear due to change to classes and I know that can be difficult. I didn't mean to minimize that effort, but even when Ogrines didn't exist, there were still people who were able to reach higher than others with much greater speed due to any number of factors.
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Score : 918
justapie|2014-05-26 14:38:38
Edit: you seriously used THIS quote? It's exactly within the argument I'm making for why dofus is p2w: Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game. ???
But that's not Black and White, man.
I know many Goultarminator players who doesn't pay real money for anything in Dofus.

justapie|2014-05-26 14:49:20
NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 14:46:11
Eh, most of those definitions are more in line with what I'm saying.
xD.
Sorry, it takes longer for me to write an answer xD So I haven't seen the newer comments.

The two opinions here are:

1. Dofus is not P2W because you don't need to pay to win. You can win without paying real money.
2. Dofus is P2W because you can pay to win faster despite you don't need to pay to win. (the followers of this idea think "win" means best gear)
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Izmar|2014-05-26 14:53:57
justapie|2014-05-26 14:38:38
I said nothing about MCers. None of your sources matter Izmar, there is no holy board of gamers that defines what P2w is. It is subjective. I could peruse the internet and find people who agree with me. Who cares? My mom has a blog too.


I'm replying to Gunner too, please try not to confuse those or we'll really have a mess. ^^

Sure, you can have your own definition of what "Pay to Win" means (you can personally define any word to mean anything you want if you get right down to it), but if it's not in sync with what most people consider Pay to Win, you risk being misunderstood or ignored.

But you have to admit the person that pays will have a huge advantage over the person who does not, even if you do not want to use the term 'pay to win'.

We both know the idea that a player could create an amazing set of gear is, while theoretically possible, realistically unattainable. Especially when a better set of gear is going to be just around the corner. I acknowledged that in my post. And while were going again with what is theoretically possible, the person who gets that super item through hard work, would again, have an even better item if they spent ogrines too. But I also mentioned that already.

My post actually changed a mind it seems, but your response to it was frankly offensive. You could have ignored it if you did not have anything to add, it seems you ignored the bulk of what I said, and repeated points that I had already addressed. That's frustrating.


What can I say? I don't agree with what you think it means to win the game, or even the example that you gave.

I know and have talked to people who have earned huge amounts of kamas and thus enabled themselves to buy whatever gear they wanted simply by understanding market principles in the game and leveraging them intelligently rather than simply grinding away.

I've seen people who have used the strengths of their guilds and friends to rise to the top of the game even faster than people who have paid for Ogrines could have.

I really don't agree that the only way to make it to the top of the game efficiently is to grind for years or pay.

And either way, most people who buy kamas with Ogrines are not following the "path to uberness" that we've discussed in this topic. I've seen the numbers. There is a tiny percentage of people who buy large amounts, but most only spend a little here and there and other than that, play normally.

I do apologize for any offense I gave, but I can understand your frustration in needing to re-gear due to change to classes and I know that can be difficult. I didn't mean to minimize that effort, but even when Ogrines didn't exist, there were still people who were able to reach higher than others with much greater speed due to any number of factors.
Fair enough, but recognize that the limit to how good you can be in this game is not the time you put in, but the money you put in, if you want it to be. A week or two at most of work outside the game matches 100s if not thousands of hours put into the game. You claim someone who put in enough time could have an item that beats what you could buy with ogrines, but that's really just untrue. Not even the most powerful or skilled players have managed to mage any items I've seen that I could not buy.

It's great people have worked hard and gotten things in the game. I'm just saying, if I wanted to, I could amass more wealth in this game in the next hour than most of them combined have acquired in 10 years of play.

The definitions nelson-mango posted were much clearer, better ones izmar - at least they came from reputable places. You know what I'm saying. You can't pull random quotes from the internet and source them to fit your views.
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Well, I think there are so many ways you can "Win" in Dofus. You can Win by being the first the XP Ladder, Achievement Ladder, Kolo Ladder, Gultarminator tournament, having just a lot of Kamas, collecting all the Dofus eggs as possible, having all the proffesions at lv 100, etc, etc, etc. So, who could give a precise and valid definition of "Win in Dofus"? Nobody, it's subjective.
It goes back to the Origin's of the phrase "Pay 2 Win"

"Paying real life currency to beat players who are inherently better than you in any game."

You have two players, X and Y.

X has been playing for a long time, they have everything that an epic-level, end game character should have. They've never depending on other people, everything that X wears, X crafted or dropped and everything mageable, X has maged to perfection, including some insane exomages (because X has been around for ages), so all of X's stats are exactly as optimal as they possibly can be.

X has never purchased a single kama using Ogrines, only subscription.

Now, player Y joined a few months ago, and they've got money to burn. Y has been purchasing Ogrines by the truckload and trading them for kamas, which Y uses to pay other higher-level characters to leech him up to 200, and buy all sorts of equipment, including some of those fancy exomages until lo and behold! Now Y is exactly as optimal as X.

Now, say X and Y decide to have a challenge. They are both optimal, and although Y isn't too bad for someone who just started a few months ago, X ekes out a win on tactics.

In a pay-to-win game, Y would be able to then go on the store and buy himself an Uber Supercharger Weapon of Smashing - which would give Y +50 more in every stat above what X can achieve - and then go beat the stuffing out of X, and X would not be able to do anything about it without coug hing up cash, because Y has paid to win.
WIN means your stronger/better in pvp/pvm then other people equal to your level. Paying 2 win Is a diss because 1 person earned it they diss the other person because they didn't earn it they just paid money.
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