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The Magical Orb: a new start!

By #[Nerodos] - ADMIN - May 23, 2014, 17:15:00
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Score : 1692
NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 15:00:05

1. Dofus is not P2W because you don't need to pay to win. You can win without paying real money.
2. Dofus is P2W because you can pay to win faster despite you don't need to pay to win. (the followers of this idea think "win" means best gear)
Yup, it pretty much boils down to that. If this wasn't about being better than other people at something I enjoy, I'd be playing single player games.
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justapie|2014-05-26 15:04:06
The definitions nelson-mango posted were (...)

(you're not the first one) xD
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NELSON-MAGNO|2014-05-26 15:11:50
justapie|2014-05-26 15:04:06
The definitions nelson-mango posted were (...)

(you're not the first one) xD
LOL
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Score : 1692

Two points for magno as this thread goes to him.

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justapie|2014-05-26 15:04:06
Fair enough, but recognize that the limit to how good you can be in this game is not the time you put in, but the money you put in, if you want it to be. A week or two at most of work outside the game matches 100s if not thousands of hours put into the game. You claim someone who put in enough time could have an item that beats what you could buy with ogrines.


No, not exactly. I'm saying that all the Ogrines in the world won't add a stat to any piece of gear beyond what's already possible. An exomage will cost the same and have the same stats no matter how you get the kamas to pay for it.

Remember, there are lots of games where their cash shops have items that actually are better than anything that's possible for free players to get or equip.

And I would argue that a week or two of work outside the game is much more difficult than spending hundreds of hours playing a game that you enjoy. That's a huge part of the equation, we're assuming that you are actually enjoying the time you spend in the game and getting value from that time. If you're not... then there's an entirely different set of problems that need to be addressed.

It's great people have worked hard and gotten things in the game. I'm just saying, if I wanted to, I could amass more wealth in this game in the next hour than most of them combined have acquired in 10 years of play.


I understand that, but I'm saying that when all other things are equal, a more experienced player will win out, and that's something that can't be bought, at least not in any meaningful way.

An inexperienced "wallet warrior" could pay someone better at PvP to sit at their computer, log their character, and beat other people. But did they actually win? I would say they hadn't.

The definitions nelson-mango posted were much clearer, better ones izmar - at least they came from reputable places. You know what I'm saying. You can't pull random quotes from the internet and source them to fit your views.


Dude. We used almost exactly the same sources. He pulled stuff from the same WoW thread, the same article about War of Tanks, the same blog posts, the same Urban dictionary page, it's just different quotes from the same sources. That's why I linked to mine so you could read them for yourself, or just google "define pay to win." ^^

justapie|2014-05-26 15:21:03
Two points for magno as this thread goes to him.


No surprises there. wink
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Score : 918
Izmar|2014-05-26 15:25:08

The definitions nelson-mango posted were much clearer, better ones izmar - at least they came from reputable places. You know what I'm saying. You can't pull random quotes from the internet and source them to fit your views.
Dude. We used almost exactly the same sources. He pulled stuff from the same WoW thread, the same article about War of Tanks, the same blog posts, the same Urban dictionary page, it's just different quotes from the same sources. That's why I linked to mine so you could read them for yourself. ^^

+1
Besides there are no such "reputable places" xD
Wikipedia and Urbandictionary are community blogs, without any reference of a "reputable source". Even if the concept was in the Collins and Merriam Webster dictionaries wouldn't be enough to cover all the interpretations. Like defining "Love".
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Izmar|2014-05-26 15:25:08
justapie|2014-05-26 15:04:06
Fair enough, but recognize that the limit to how good you can be in this game is not the time you put in, but the money you put in, if you want it to be. A week or two at most of work outside the game matches 100s if not thousands of hours put into the game. You claim someone who put in enough time could have an item that beats what you could buy with ogrines.


No, not exactly. I'm saying that all the Ogrines in the world won't add a stat to any piece of gear beyond what's already possible. An exomage will cost the same and have the same stats no matter how you get the kamas to pay for it.

Remember, there are lots of games where their cash shops have items that actually are better than anything that's possible for free players to get or equip.

And I would argue that a week or two of work outside the game is much more difficult than spending hundreds of hours playing a game that you enjoy. That's a huge part of the equation, we're assuming that you are actually enjoying the time you spend in the game and getting value from that time. If you're not... then there's an entirely different set of problems that need to be addressed.

It's great people have worked hard and gotten things in the game. I'm just saying, if I wanted to, I could amass more wealth in this game in the next hour than most of them combined have acquired in 10 years of play.


I understand that, but I'm saying that when all other things are equal, a more experienced player will win out, and that's something that can't be bought, at least not in any meaningful way.

An inexperienced "wallet warrior" could pay someone better at PvP to sit at their computer, log their character, and beat other people. But did they actually win? I would say they hadn't.

The definitions nelson-mango posted were much clearer, better ones izmar - at least they came from reputable places. You know what I'm saying. You can't pull random quotes from the internet and source them to fit your views.


Dude. We used almost exactly the same sources. He pulled stuff from the same WoW thread, the same article about War of Tanks, the same blog posts, the same Urban dictionary page, it's just different quotes from the same sources. That's why I linked to mine so you could read them for yourself, or just google "define pay to win." ^^

justapie|2014-05-26 15:21:03
Two points for magno as this thread goes to him.


No surprises there. wink
Sure, but all other things being equal, the player who bought more ogrines wins. I guess that is where I saw the pay to win. Eh, I guess I first read the blog post (which really was a horrible source), and then just saw the random quotes. Magno, I get that everything is just the postings of people, but urban dictionary and wikipedia etc are crowd sourced enough to represent the population better than some dude's blog. Many seemed to agree with me.

I don't enjoy grinding for 100s/1000s of hours. For me though it's all a means to get the things I need to PvP. The intermediate steps between making a character and PvPing are just an unfortunate necessity. And then it feels good when this thing you've worked hard on is a killing machine.

Maybe I'm in the minority though.

The thing is, winning in this game is hard to define... it could be PvM, PvP, ladder, achievements, all 100 profs, etc. But all of those things are helped with ogrines. You pay and then you are better than other people. I don't see how that is not winning - and how it doesn't make other people lose, if they are trying to compete.

Just personality differences, like magno was saying. Meh.
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The thing is, winning in this game is hard to define... it could be PvM, PvP, ladder, achievements, all 100 profs, etc. But all of those things are helped with ogrines. You pay and then you are better than other people. I don't see how that is not winning - and how it doesn't make other people lose, if they are trying to compete.

In most cases the other people would lose if there was no ogrine market because they wouldn't be able to play the game at all. If I buy ogrines I get a nice kama boost that accelerates my progress, but someone else gets a year of subscription time. (Or more realistically the year of subscription time I bought gets distributed across many people.) All of us benefit.

The benefit for those who buy the ogrines with kamas is that they get to play the game, where they probably couldn't before. You definitely aren't going to be "winning" anything when you are stuck in Astrub.

Another way to think about it is that "winning" in this game requires paying for a subscription, which of course requires cash. If you choose not to pay for a subscription, and instead let someone else pay for your subscription by buying ogrines then you have to work way harder than them to "win" as fast as they do.

Like it or not, in order to play the game for free it takes a lot of work. Someone who subscribes with cash is able to collect millions of kamas and use them for themselves instead of buying ogrines for subscription. So yeah they are going to progress faster, because the other person subscribing with kamas is working twice: once for their subscription and once for the characters gear, etc.
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Mishna|2014-05-26 15:57:23
The thing is, winning in this game is hard to define... it could be PvM, PvP, ladder, achievements, all 100 profs, etc. But all of those things are helped with ogrines. You pay and then you are better than other people. I don't see how that is not winning - and how it doesn't make other people lose, if they are trying to compete.

In most cases the other people would lose if there was no ogrine market because they wouldn't be able to play the game at all. If I buy ogrines I get a nice kama boost that accelerates my progress, but someone else gets a year of subscription time. (Or more realistically the year of subscription time I bought gets distributed across many people.) All of us benefit.

The benefit for those who buy the ogrines with kamas is that they get to play the game, where they probably couldn't before. You definitely aren't going to be "winning" anything when you are stuck in Astrub.
Cool, but please read, like, at least half the thread. We've been over all this.
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Cool, but please read, like, at least half the thread. We've been over all this.

It took a while but I have. I'm just saying that I agree with Izmar's point that this is not a pay to win game.

However, it is definitely a subscribe to win game. There is a big difference there. What you are seeing as "pay to win" is just "subscribe to win" because people who pay for subscriptions "win" faster than someone who has to work double to pay for their subscription and their character progression.
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Mishna|2014-05-26 16:03:50
Cool, but please read, like, at least half the thread. We've been over all this.

It took a while but I have. I'm just saying that I agree with Izmar's point that this is not a pay to win game.

However, it is definitely a subscribe to win game. There is a big difference there. What you are seeing as "pay to win" is just "subscribe to win" because people who pay for subscriptions "win" faster than someone who has to work double to pay for their subscription and their character progression.
yawn man. kamas you save from paying money for subscription are just the same as the kamas you gain from buying extra ogrines with cash. No need to make up new words here. Eh, great that you agree with Izmar, but if you'd read the thread you'd recognize that stating the merits of ogrines has no bearing on anything I've said. I agree they are overall beneficial.
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justapie|2014-05-26 15:39:21
Eh, I guess I first read the blog post (which really was a horrible source), and then just saw the random quotes. Magno, I get that everything is just the postings of people, but urban dictionary and wikipedia etc are crowd sourced enough to represent the population better than some dude's blog. Many seemed to agree with me.


Ok, just one more, because I think we've both come to, if not an agreement, at least a mutual position of understanding.

In defense of the Game Wisdom blog, it's not simply a rando blog. If you read the "About" on the site, you can see that the author has been researching game development and design for seven years... and this particular article is on the first page of Google results if you research Pay To Win - which means that even if there are not a lot of comments, a lot of people are linking to it and using it as a reference for how to define the term.

I tried to look at quotes from the threads that were highly voted - for example, the quote from Reddit is the response with the most upvotes.

And here's how I did a quick overview of each page's opinion:

WoWhead thread

Defines P2W as any paid advantage (including reduced time): ||||||||
Defines P2W as paid advantages that aren't available to F2P players: ||||||||||||||||

DailyGrind

Defines P2W as any paid advantage (including reduced time): ||||||||||||||
Defines P2W as games with intentional time restrictions that can be passed with money/games that are intentionally difficult to encourage paying: ||||
Defines P2W as paid advantages that aren't available to F2P players: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Defined P2W as "A game you don't like": ||

The discussion in this thread is pretty interesting if you really want to dig into what Pay to Win means and a lot of posts didn't fit into one of these categories.

Several people specifically said that P2W of any flavor only matters when talking about PvP rather than PvE and another said that they love Pay to Win, but didn't really talk about what they felt was the line that separated Pay to Win from Pay to Play. Quite a lot of people in the thread specifically said that they didn't consider time-saving items like xp boosts to be Pay to Win, and there was a very interesting side-discussion about players who are rich in time lording their time resource over players who do not have access to a lot of time.

Anyway, I do try to be impartial and not just cherry-pick quotes from any old place.
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I don't know if this came because of my suggestions, but unfortunately for me It came after I scrolled 3 different elements on 3 different characters of the class :wacko: Because I had no way to reset.

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I think I understand... Dofus is a P2W kind of game... but not in the conventional sense.

Usually, in a P2W kind of game, what you are buying are exclusive items.
In Dofus, you are buying an intangible, something people may have a really hard time understanding: time

Lets look at it from the basic extrema:

One guy (A) subs one account for 1 week by paying and the other (subscription by kamas -> ogrines.
A spends real money $2 and does nothing for a week but still has a week of sub.
B spends 7 hours of monster killing/professions/etc for a week of sub and does nothing.

B has to do alot of work just to keep his sub.

Lets look at it from the far extrema:

One guy (A) subs 100 accounts for 1 week by paying and the other (subscription by kamas -> ogrines.
A spends real money ($200) and does nothing for a week but still has sub on all his accounts.
B spends every single minute playing Dofus to get the subs and thus cannot do anything really and makes no real profit.

This is taking it really far obviously, but do you see the time discrepancy?
A can do whatever whenever while B cannot because he is physically not able to. This could be reversed where A spends every minute working for $200 and B could make kamas super easily.

In a non-P2W game:
Subscription is based on either dollars or kamas alone, not both.
Inter conversion of the two should not take place ever.
Kamas should stay in Dofus and dollars/pound/etc should stay in the real world.
You are buying your gobball headgear using kamas, made by your in-game efforts/professions/monster killing/etc.
You are paying the devs cash for them to buy food/etc using your real life efforts at jobs/etc.
Yes even subscription gifts count as P2W because you are using money to buy in game items.

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Agreed

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One guy (A) subs 100 accounts for 1 week by paying and the other (subscription by kamas -> ogrines. A spends real money ($200) and does nothing for a week but still has sub on all his accounts. B spends every single minute playing Dofus to get the subs and thus cannot do anything really and makes no real profit. This is taking it really far obviously, but do you see the time discrepancy? A can do whatever whenever while B cannot because he is physically not able to. This could be reversed where A spends every minute working for $200 and B could make kamas super easily.

Yep that is pretty much it. But just to fill in a bit more detail, in most scenarios person A is someone working 40 hours a week and playing Dofus maybe 5 hours a week total, while person B is someone who can play Dofus 8 hours a day, but doesn't have any real life money to pay for a sub.

It is easy to make enough money to pay for subscription with kamas by using the daily repeatable quests. You can make 1.2-1.4 million kamas a week (at level 200) from just spending 1 hour per day doing quests. (This doesn't include any extra money you could make during that week by selling resources you drop from monsters or that you gather/craft with a profession.)

The "subscribe with kamas" approach is designed for people who have at least a few hours to play every day so they can go spend one hour running the dopples and other daily quests to get money for subscription, and then spend a few more hours doing whatever they want.
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TOFUKAZE!

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Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:22:55
Arcade11|2014-05-26 12:16:56
If your idea of p2w is paying giving you any kind of advantage. Every game in the world is p2w.
No there are free games and single payment games that are not pay to win. Any subscription games that only offer subscription as payment but does not allow multi accounting will qualify as a non P2W game.

justapie|2014-05-26 12:19:51
Gunnerwolfang|2014-05-26 12:09:24
justapie|2014-05-26 12:05:13
burh dat ain't meh post. read plz.

Also, what you gleamed from the other guys post was pretty dense of you. You may have 'responded', you missed the point though.
You only think I missed it. because you are only accepting your own interpretation.
u forgettin how lang works amaaaaan. this ain't fuckin' art. we trying to express thouts and felins, and den trnsmit dem thouts of other to peps. u no dis. ignor the point bein' made al u want. yor 'intepritating' mean not if you ain't respond t o wat dey actulli sayin, not da poit u decide dey said. an if dey den clarify it, plz resp to that concern u no dey rasin, not daw litle hole in xpression u tink u found. lrn 2 reed pls gunnar. pls. harpin on idims is poitles. Not al lik "I gannar, ppl sid wat i say dey said".

You did not respond to what I said (though it wouldn't even matter if you would just do what I just told you you should do, like everyone else attempts to do, and respond to the ideas you know people are trying to express, not the ideas you have decided they are trying to express), and as usual, only attempted to respond to the half of a post you thought you could 'beat' verbally.
So your point is that I should read your point? Seriously? That is all you can say, "Read my point"... Why don't you just tell us your point instead of making us guess what your point is?

BTW: When posting you can read this on the right side of the screen.:

Write correctly.
Txt-talk will not be tolerated at all, good grammar and spelling is essential.
You are not a moderator, stop backseat moderating. The last time I had a confrontation with a moderator (instead of acting like one) I recall getting penalized. Amazing how you're immune to punishment
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Who said I am a moderator? I am just reminding you about reading the rule on the side when you post.

FYI: I am not immune and probably one of the most penalized forumer.

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Personally, I see nothing wrong with pointing out one of the rules when you purposefully seem to be writing in a... weird form, which just gives everyone issues when trying to read.

I will admit, I have no issues with reading most slang, '1337 5p34k' and many other forms of text speak, but that doesn't mean other people can. Why bother posting on a forum where the whole point is for other people to read your posts, and then make it purposefully difficult to read?

Plus, I would not count stating the blindingly obvious as "backseat-moderating" personally. If someone is trying to sell an account and you tell them that it's against the rules, is it "mini-modding" (or whatever term you choose to use)? No, it's simply informing someone else of the rules, to either warn them of the consequences or to make things easier.

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