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Tank Pandawas have become a problem

By CoolRay#6774 - SUBSCRIBER - October 19, 2021, 21:43:45

Of all the insanely difficult dungeons that Dofus has, such as Imagiro and Orukam being the two that I am doing right now, no class would be complete without a tank panda. The tank panda serves no purpose other than having 50% resistance to everything, and locking all monsters in place. Combined with its god tier field manipulation in Karcham and Chakram, it is by far the most important class in the entire game.

This has become a problem, because now dungeons have become so insanely difficult that if you don't have a panda on your team, then most dungeons become near impossible to do. (Especially the two dungeons I'm doing right now) 

Due to the pandas amazing tanking abilities, combined with the mind boggling difficulty of most end game dungeons, having a panda on your team is a 100% must. It has completely warped the game. Some dungeons go from near impossible difficult to practically Incarnam Dungeon if you have a panda. 

So, what should be done?

Well, this problem requires multiple solutions due to being multifaceted. It also depends on the goal we want to have for the game design in end game dungeons. So here are a few scenarios I recommend:

Nerf Pandawa utility, and nerf most end game dungeons:
For this I recommend taking away the pandas ability to absorb damage via being drunk, while also making some dungeons a bit more leniant. (Cough, Pandala 3, cough) The purpose of this would be to make the dungeons easier to do with any class.
-Pandawas can only lift 1 unit per turn. While a unit is being held, any attempts to target it will cause the carried unit to be dropped and the damage to be split between the panda and the formerly carried unit.
-Pandala 3 mobs will have their HP reduced from 19000 to 9000. This is compensate with the panda's nerfs.
**Among other changes, I don't want this to be too long**

Nerf Pandawa durability and max resistance for all classes, and same nerfs to most end game dungeons:
This nerf will serve the purpose of allowing the panda to still having its amazing utility, but it won't be able to just sit in the middle of the entire fight and have end game monsters, which are supposed to hurt, barely tickle it. This nerf will also extend to all classes so that no other class can step in and be a god tier tank with insane resistances. (Cough, Masqueraider)
-Pandawa's spells no longer give damage reduction. 
-Max %resistance is now 40%, down from 50%.

Nerf all end game dungeons even harder to reduce tank panda's demand:
Since Pandas are so needed due to their durability and utility, perhaps maybe the issue isn't in the pandas design, but rather in the design of Dofus mechanics? I understand the game is supposed to be hard, but is it reasonable to ask "is this game too hard?"
-Pandala 3 mobs have their HP reduced to what their HP normally is while in the dungeon.
-Overall damage reduced across the board.
**Again, among other changes, I just don't want this to be too long**

Conclusion:
I would like to stress to everyone that this is not going to have an easy solution. Dofus is a complex game, and a complex game has complex problems that require equally complex solutions so as not to ruin the fun. The goal here is, obviously, not to make the game unfun. Its to make it more balanced so that one class doesn't completely warp the PvM in this game.

9 -17
Reactions 38
Score : 1994
Hello,

Good post, and good valid points!

I wish you GG ig, and ... well ... you might start being hated by some, for this particular post ...
.

.
Imagine how Dofus would be, if given certain skill and certain gear, all within medium capability of being achieved, there shall be no more "dungeon passeers" and "passees" (to name them kindly); but there shall be only friends, or even "randoms" whom you meet for first time in front of a dungeon, and whatever medium geared appropriate lev random composition group you get, it is able to pass a random dungeon; those are the golden times of the Dofus I have falled in love with, a decade ago ...

 
3 -1
Score : 18432

Its inevitable that some people would hate for this to happen. Its an inherent bias that people have  that makes them think something is balanced and if it gets nerfed the game isn't fun anymore. This is seen in almost every game, usually League of Legends.. especially League of Legends. (Yasuo)

Also, the paradise that you are imagining Dofus as isn't really what happened. There has always been passers in some capacity. Ratting was a common form of leeching. The only difference now is that there are a lot more difficulty dungeons that require precise and optimizing gear, so now passing is a lot more common because of that fact. The social aspect in Dofus never really changed... until multiaccounting became common.

0 -2
Score : 7178

This feels a lot like the situation with close combat weapons around version 1.20. Close combat weapons outclassed nearly every class damage spell. If you didn't have optimized, maged weapons plus the appropriate maxed out weapon skill, you couldn't really keep up. Strength Iops were king.

After they nerfed close combat weapons across the board, they had to follow up with a round of nerfs to most monsters so that they'd be killable with reduced damage output. I hope Ankama learned their lesson from that very difficult time, and that once they tackle the Panda issue they consider a general round of HP and resistance nerfs for all monsters based on their level bracket. Since they just tackled the Rogue situation, I doubt there's much time.

3 0
Score : 1994
#nerfpanda

#nerfendgamegamecontent

#makealmostanyrandomgroupofrandomclassesbeabletopassanydungaroundtheirlevel




PS: Please, do fix the launcher and installer/ uninstaller, thank you.
2 -1
Score : -122

Just make a tank if its such a big issue for you. Or be better at the game.. 

​​​​​​

0 -9
Score : 18432

You obviously didn't read my post. 

I can explain my reasoning to you. But I can't make you understand that reasoning. That's your job.

6 0
Score : 402

I'll have to agree with you, Panda Tanks are so incredibly overpowered and boring. I'm a little bit tired of seeing everything revolving around it, I would be fine with a nerf to them too. I do have a Panda myself and even a Tank set, I simply don't use it because it is too "cheesey"

But nerfing the dungeons is not the way to go for me. But then again I haven't done any Pandala 3 dungeons yet, so I can't really say if it is that absurd or not. But I'm almost there, just finishing some side quests before actually trying the main questline there.

2 -1
Score : 18432

As someone who has done Pandala 3 quite a few times, I can say with 100% confidence that, whether or not pandas get nerfed, this dungeon needs a change.
Its basically a dimension fight, so 4 waves, and every monster, sans the boss, has 19,500HP plus a 6000HP summon that has to be killed when it dies.

Easily the hardest dungeons in the game right now.

4 0
Score : 577

I'm a bit conflicted about this issue. I know tank pandas need a nerf, no arguement there. But I think tanking as a mechanic should remain in the game and be emphasised on more.

I know Dofus is more or less unique and a game of it's own, but IMO without proper roles ( DPS, Tank, Healer ) games become quite stale and boring real fast.

Ankama should make the classes that are meant to have a tank aspect ( Feca, Panda, Mask, etc ... ) more balanced compared to each other ( Feca who is supposed to be the main tank class is laughable at tanking compared to a Panda for example ). Now ofcourse tanking shouldn't be as OP as it is right now as a tank Panda, but it should be nescessary for a team to have a tank for endgame dungeons IMO. Making all tank classes more in line with each other and normalizing their tanking capabilities would also allow for healers ( and offhealers ) to be more viable again and would finally lessen the boring blitz gameplay we have right now. 

So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I acknowledge that tank Pandas are an issue for sure, but I don't think endgame dungeons should be nerfed ( no idea about panda 3 dungeons, haven't done those yet ) but rather have the tank classes be more in line with each other so they can finally properly do what they're meant to do but without being too overpowering like pandas are right now. 

-Ex.

1 0
Score : 18432

Actually, back when classes were super simple in Dofus 1.29, there were actual roles. Enis had a ton of healing spells and horrid damage spells. Sacs had amazing HP sustain on life steal, and their softcaps made them have a ton of HP. 
There were actual roles for each class. However that got boring and rather stale, so Ankama made all the classes have a viable-ish damage role, just the playstyles differed rather than roles.

Overall however, I can understand and agree with your reasoning.

0 0
Score : 402

 

CoolRay#6774|2021-10-21 19:59:47
As someone who has done Pandala 3 quite a few times, I can say with 100% confidence that, whether or not pandas get nerfed, this dungeon needs a change.
Its basically a dimension fight, so 4 waves, and every monster, sans the boss, has 19,500HP plus a 6000HP summon that has to be killed when it dies.

Easily the hardest dungeons in the game right now.

Update: tried Imagiro's Memory dungeon today and managed to beat it (without a Panda Tank, but I knew the mobs and mechanics pretty well, since I study dungeons a lot before attempting them).

Even though I agree it's a very difficult dungeon, I don't think it needs to be nerfed, not heavily nerfed at least. Although if you meant idols/achievements, you are probably right. I will never even attempt to complete those in this dungeon tongue

for those interesed in the setup, I created a little reddit thread in the Dofus Reddit containing several screenshots of how my fight went
0 0
Score : 1845

Pandas on Dofus and Wakfu are the best tanks in both games - if specced for tanking, it's not really a focus in their class itinerary which I've always found strange. I think changing the resistances gained from the drunk state would be the easiest fix, without needing to change entire aspects of the game.
Endgame dungeons also tend to seemingly base their mechanics around tank pandas now as well, such as the newest lv 200 kabaal ritual dungeons. Xelors for example, had their connectivity with damaging requirement changed a couple, if not three times in the dungeons short lifespan.

I feel the constant changes to around half the classes on the list also makes endgame dungeons in particular class specific and it makes it even more difficult to play with three other individuals. Specifically for certain achievements in the elio storm, servi, paper and ink dungs and the newest to name a few.

These days I wouldn't even be able to trio Imagiro and Orukam, with my three favourite choice of classes xel/eni/feca after the hard damage nerf to int/str xels earlier in the year. With int being the only viable range damage for unpredictable fights. Perhaps agility would suffice but it can be very situational. Basically without a panda for many of the fights, you would have to devise a cell by cell plan for each encounter, whilst changing a single cell move upon each loss.
Although many players may see this as a challenge, a puzzle for pvm and raises the bar for certain classes.
In every mmo fantasy game I've played, I've found one class is always more viable in multiple situations then the rest.

1 0
Score : 689

I fully agree with the OP. I have always been (literally) screaming that tank pandas should be nerfed/changed/whatever or their attack abilities buffed. Now people don't even consider pandas as hitters. Either a tank or you're useless, which is really sad as the tank playstyle is extremely boring.
Also some people say they have done hardest dungeons in the game without a tank panda and they are definitely doable. For sure. But it's not about that. It's about tank pandas making the dungeons much easier. It shouldn't be like that. Like someone mentioned in this thread - every random combo of classes should be able to have decent chances in all dungeons and having a tank panda wouldn't need to be a must.
So either hardest dungeons or tank abilities of panda should be nerfed... OR preferably both... So people could finally play other panda builds in PVM.

2 -7
Score : 708

Absolutely

WHOEVER doesn't believe that Tank pandas are a problem right now is either completely delusional,  or simply doesn't know how to play. There are NO ifs, ands, and buts about it, this class has completely broken PVM.

I suggested something similar to you in the Hispañia forums, and everyone was offended because apparently nerfing Tank Pandas is a cardinal sin, and I got attacked not by players giving coherent arguments, they were simply rabid, uneducated monkeys.

I have an ret Enu with an AMAZING set, and an Eniripsa with a 220+ heals set, and the vast majority of times they were made redundant because my tank panda (I know how to use it, that's why I know that they're broken) would simply surround himself with 3 or 4 moobs, and he would be tickled, so I didn't have to remove MPs, and I didn't even have to heal...

 

3 -9
Score : 732

Are tank Pandas the problem though?

It seems to me that the player base has evolved it's role simply in response to the ridiculous insanely difficult dungeons that ankama keeps adding to the game.

Because of the above I haven't even finished the Frigost dungeons as I only have 2 accounts, one with my Sadida and the other with my Enu, and as someone else has mentioned, gone are the days when you could go to a dungeon and find a team to enter with. Nowadays everyone has their own teams and they are petrified of inviting anyone along in case it ruins the run.

1 0
Score : 708

I agree that some Dungeos are just too complex and difficult, not in a good way (Turtlelonia, Origami/ink, Eliocalypse dungeons) but Frigost Dungeos are far easier than those man!




 

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Score : 708

 

CoolRay#6774|2021-11-06 15:56:29
Its absolutely a multifaceted problem that doesn't have one singular solution. But that begs the question: Do we nerf the dungeons, or do we nerf the panda?

I'm going to give a long opinion sorry I love discussions lol

I would Nerf Pandas (Being able to tank while at the same time being the best positioning class in the game is a huge NO-NO in my book, I would outright eliminate their tanking and shield spells) , and also nerf SOME dungeons.

Talking about level 200 dungeons (and some dungeons that are hard), btw sorry I don't know some names in English

Count Razof (190) Remove that annoying ass unicorn that gets itself killed, and nerf the damage of the moobs a little bit.
Funoroshi (140) Terrible concept, lower the amount of candles to like four.
Miss frizz: Stays the same, it's already nerfed
Sylargh: Stays the same, it's already nerfed
Nileza: Stays the same, already nerfed, easiest level 200 dungeon
Klim: Stays the same, it's already nerfed.
Count Harebourgh: Eh doing this dungeon with randoms does seem difficult. probably just make the boss not do the spell where he spawns several fake clones, to kill him more easily.
Merkator: Stays the same, bland ass dungeon.
Dantinea: Stays the same, overall fun dungeon.
Kutulu: Difficult with randoms and clueless people, probably make Kutulu not always teleport to somebody who is in his field of vision? Tank pandas make this dung a complete joke.
Captain Meno: Weird ass concept for a dungeon, I just don't know how I would nerf this dungeon without changing completely it's concept. 99% of players simply lock Meno in a corner, and then 2 or 3 players start to position moobs away... I don't know, it might need a rework imo.
Anerice (Ghoul vampire lady) not too easy and definitely not difficult dungeon, it stays the same.
Nidas: Stays the same, it's already nerfed
Proto: Very original concept, but hard for single players in a party. Probably just lower the conditions to 4 turns instead of 5, and change the virus who needs to be attacked in all elements to an easier condition.
Tal Kasha: Very difficult dungeon. Make revived moobs have only like 700 hp, and make the pyramid moob get only 8 mps instead of 10 when it gets attacked.
King Dazakh: Make him NOT IGNORE the gravity state... and make him lose 10% of resistance with every push he receives, not 5%.
Ilyzaelle: Hard dungeon, make the moobs not do very punishing shit everytime they get moved or stolen mps.
Tortelonia: Flatout eliminate the two very punishing moon phases, and simplify the inmunity mechanic, this is probably the most obnoxious family of moobs.
Solar: Make the Cénit state way less dangerous, and make the necronix spell NOT END YOUR TURN.
Bethel: Half the pillar life points, and make the necronix spell NOT END YOUR TURN.
Queen of thieves: Nightmare to do it with randoms, make the red bombs only deal you 1000 damage, not instakilled.
Vortex: The most annoying and boring dungeon imo, just screw the time placement mechanic, and make the requisite of killing every moob two times.
Catseye: Awful, uninspired dungeon. Tank pandas make this dungeon way easier... it needs a rework, because other than permalocking the cat, there's nothing else to be done.
All Eliocalipsis dungeons: Honestly... just make them simpler, I find them too obfuscated. I don't know how, just make them not have two phases? 
 
7 -8
Score : 18432

Agree with all this.

1 -6
Score : 242

100% Agree. I can't run dungs because "we don't have a Panda". If dungs were easier and didn't require 1 specific class all the time, maybe the social aspect of the game would improve. Lately I log to afk most of the time cause nobody wants to do anything in this game and that's a problem.

2 -2
Score : 61

With the current gear, it's possible to reach 50% res all, 5000hp, 200lock, over 3300 initiative and have 500 shield passively generated for existing on the map. (Black-spotted dofus+legendary pet), add to the mix the emerald dofus, the cocoa dofus, and the spell fermentation you have yourself too many shield to ever be in real danger.

My panda became the central piece of my team and I hate it.
I'd really want the meta to change, but it would require a rework of dungeons as well.
 

1 0

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Thanks for your understanding.

Score : 1767

I'm not sure what's controversial about this topic. The original poster should be thanked for bringing up this issue.

Pandas are a staple character in any end-game dungeon. Without a 6k hp, 50% resistance tank walking around the map, chucking monsters wherever it pleases, you're in for a tough fight. It seems to me that venturing into any end-game dungeon without a tank panda is akin to starting the fight at a disadvantage.

Now, let's see why people tend to use pandas so often. I'd wager that it's because recently-released end-game content is either one of these two:

  1. Horribly complicated
  2. Horribly overpowered in close combat (cc) range

These two points will knock over the biggest can of worms in MMORPG history, but let me quickly go over what I mean by both of them.

1. The extremely complex fight mechanics in end-game dungeon is - personally speaking - sickening and largely convoluted. A few people mentioned Pandala 3 dungeons and they thus couldn't have chosen a better example to prove this point. The sheer difficulty of this dungeon already threatens pandas' utility, let alone other characters with way less map manipulation. Apart from that, dungeon bosses with invulnerability mechanics are so frustrating to try without good map manipulation characters, that it's simply not worth the hair-plucking and keyboard smashing.

2. Most monsters hit hard in cc. When I say hard, I mean that several monsters are capable of hitting in the thousands. In most end-game content, you might as well leave the fight if a monsters comes next to you and you have no healer. An argument is only as good as its example. In one of the Eliocalpyse dimensions*, there's a monster (seems like an ecaflip on a mount, cannot remember the name) that can kill a 4,000 hp player through raw damage alone. If you don't try to tank that - with any character in the game - you're done for.

A mixture of these two problems gave birth to the tank character. The incredible map manipulation prowess that pandas have, meant that this tank character is usually a panda.

Could pandas use a nerf? Sure. As long as you ease most end-game content to refrain from punishing players who try to avoid tank characters in the first place.

*possibly Servitude's dimension
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