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2.10 Foggernaut Feedback

By Electricotter - MEMBER OF THE ZENITH - February 13, 2013, 19:04:20

2.10 beta Foggernaut feedback
The Zenith would like to gather your feedback on class changes in the 2.10 beta. As always is the case for a beta, we encourage you to actually go on the test server and try the changes extensively, without making hasty conclusions based on only reading the change-log. Please feel free to use the following questions to guide your testing and discussion, and you can also find the devblog entry and changes on this class below.


Questions:
  • How have the changes affected Foggernauts' overall power in PvM and/or PvP? Are they more powerful or less than before?
  • Compared to other classes in PvM and/or PvP, are Foggernauts more balanced or less than before?
  • How is the balance between the Foggernaut elemental builds (strength, intelligence and chance) now? Is there a strongest or weakest build?

Devblog:
We're tried to make this class more flexible with a few minor modifications.The range of the Harpooner's spell has been increased by 1 at all levels and its damage against allies reduced at all levels to make the turret more competitive with other offensive spells and other turrets.
The initiatl cooldown of 1 turn on the Evolution spells has been removed to allow Foggers to set up their game with greater speed.

Changes:Harpooner:
  • The turret’s range has been increased by 1 across all levels.
  • The turrets’ damages on allies have been reduced across all levels.
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
Scaphander :
  • The +dmg bonus value has been increased across all levels.
  • The pushback damage bonus has been increased across all levels.
Periscope :
  • It once again applies the Water state on the Harpooner.
Froth :
  • The minimal range is now of 2 across all levels.
  • The maximum range is now of 5 at levels 1 to 5, and 6 at level 6.
  • The spell now pushes the target by one tile.
Trident :
  • The duration of the debuff is now of 2 turns.
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Reactions 21
Score : 187

I was expecting fogger's finally getting a nerf but meh, all they do is getting buffed up.

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Score : 4086

Foggers are still the newest class so of course they're gonna sustain buffs until about 4 updates then start suffering nerfs...

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Score : 1816

Love it haha, didn't expect a buff.

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Score : 13429
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
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Score : 6478
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 03:46:53
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
This is the main problem we had in our internal review as well.

With 2 Foggers you can not only get a maxed turret quickly, but you can max 2 turrets total.
(Note I haven't tested if that is still possible with this update, my focus is the Osa.)

I, personally, feel a Global Cooldown on Evolution is completely justifiable.

For the record I also play a Fogger.
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Score : 1816
Electricotter|2013-02-14 04:06:37
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 03:46:53
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
This is the main problem we had in our internal review as well.

With 2 Foggers you can not only get a maxed turret quickly, but you can max 2 turrets total.
(Note I haven't tested if that is still possible with this update, my focus is the Osa.)

I, personally, feel a Global Cooldown on Evolution is completely justifiable.

For the record I also play a Fogger.
Yeah I've never had a problem with the cooldown. Evo 3 turret at turn 3 seems way too powerful. At the very least there should be a one turn initial cooldown.
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Score : 13429
Electricotter|2013-02-14 04:06:37
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 03:46:53
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
This is the main problem we had in our internal review as well.

With 2 Foggers you can not only get a maxed turret quickly, but you can max 2 turrets total.
(Note I haven't tested if that is still possible with this update, my focus is the Osa.)

I, personally, feel a Global Cooldown on Evolution is completely justifiable.

For the record I also play a Fogger.
Just for fun after reading this i played with a friend using a self imposed global cooldown of 2. This was far worse than the current (non-beta) setup.
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Score : 6478
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 09:29:33
Electricotter|2013-02-14 04:06:37
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 03:46:53
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
This is the main problem we had in our internal review as well.

With 2 Foggers you can not only get a maxed turret quickly, but you can max 2 turrets total.
(Note I haven't tested if that is still possible with this update, my focus is the Osa.)

I, personally, feel a Global Cooldown on Evolution is completely justifiable.

For the record I also play a Fogger.
Just for fun after reading this i played with a friend using a self imposed global cooldown of 2. This was far worse than the current (non-beta) setup.
Can you elaborate please?

While most other classes are more or less penalized for having another of their class around, the Fogger enjoys nothing but benefits.

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Score : 2921

I also am a bit confused as to why we'd power up Foggernauts so early in the fight. Sacriers take about 6 turns to stack their buffs, Cras now take 7 turns to max out their Atonement arrow (I think that's right), but we allow Foggernauts to have a fully evolved turret by round 3? It can be tough to fight a foggernaut, but good tactics demand you take out their harpooner if they start stacking evolutions. With the stacked vitality, it is now very difficult to take out a turret before it is fully evolved and tearing you apart at mid to end game. I can't speak for earlier.

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Score : 13429
Electricotter|2013-02-14 12:46:33
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 09:29:33
Electricotter|2013-02-14 04:06:37
Nerd-Tease|2013-02-14 03:46:53
Electricotter|2013-02-13 19:04:20
Evolution:
  • The initial cooldown has been removed.
I am happy with all of the changes, but have slight issue with one.
Evolution, despite its initial cooldown being removed, can still be cast on other foggernauts turrets. I feel that if they are removing the initial cooldown, That foggernauts should only be able to evolve their own turrets. Other than that, i am okay with the changes
This is the main problem we had in our internal review as well.

With 2 Foggers you can not only get a maxed turret quickly, but you can max 2 turrets total.
(Note I haven't tested if that is still possible with this update, my focus is the Osa.)

I, personally, feel a Global Cooldown on Evolution is completely justifiable.

For the record I also play a Fogger.
Just for fun after reading this i played with a friend using a self imposed global cooldown of 2. This was far worse than the current (non-beta) setup.
Can you elaborate please?

While most other classes are more or less penalized for having another of their class around, the Fogger enjoys nothing but benefits.

To elaborate, this would prevent multi foggernaut teams from utilizing more than one turret at a time (for the beggining anyways) and encourage dropping stats for initiative for the sole reason of ensuring that your fogger always goes first

EDIT: messed around with it with a self imposed Global cooldown again... It forces a slightly different strategy at the beginning, but with some communication, still viable with a global cooldown
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Score : 6478
Relious|2013-02-14 12:50:33
I also am a bit confused as to why we'd power up Foggernauts so early in the fight. Sacriers take about 6 turns to stack their buffs, Cras now take 7 turns to max out their Atonement arrow (I think that's right), but we allow Foggernauts to have a fully evolved turret by round 3? It can be tough to fight a foggernaut, but good tactics demand you take out their harpooner if they start stacking evolutions. With the stacked vitality, it is now very difficult to take out a turret before it is fully evolved and tearing you apart at mid to end game. I can't speak for earlier.
When facing one Fogger this isn't the biggest deal, if they Evo a Harp sooner...well they can't give a full heal until the cooldown ends for Evo wink

Turn 2 is actually the most tactically sound time to drop that Evo, unless you use it for a different turret.

This way your Harp is one closer to being resummoned.

Don't get me wrong I do kind of agree, the quicker Evo on top of the range increases was a little much, but overdoing things is an Ankama trademark.

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Score : 13429
Don't get me wrong I do kind of agree, the quicker Evo on top of the range increases was a little much, but overdoing things is an Ankama trademark.
The way I play my foggernaut, the increased range actually inhibits my playstyle slightly, though the reduced damage to allies more than compensates
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Score : 3

Sorry, i'm Cobo from the italian community.

I can't access the beta so i would like to know the scaphander buff. I like a lot that spell (in a RPG way) but it fell useless for the pour amount of +damage and +knockback damage it gives.

It would be fun to made a scaphander/trident/backwash build with the knockback damage triggering the trident's poison.

Using also the class hat you could cast 2 backwashes, use scaphander with 1 ap and cast harpooner behind the foe without line of sight in order to provide a 1 ap-obstacle for backwash.

you can also use tide for swapping position with your enemy in proximity of obstacles (and debuff it) and for close combat an earth meele weapon +backwater for absorbing damage!

Sorry for my english biggrin 

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Score : 13429
C080|2013-02-16 16:27:02
Sorry, i'm Cobo from the italian community.

I can't access the beta so i would like to know the scaphander buff. I like a lot that spell (in a RPG way) but it fell useless for the pour amount of +damage and +knockback damage it gives.

It would be fun to made a scaphander/trident/backwash build with the knockback damage triggering the trident's poison.

Using also the class hat you could cast 2 backwashes, use scaphander with 1 ap and cast harpooner behind the foe without line of sight in order to provide a 1 ap-obstacle for backwash.

you can also use tide for swapping position with your enemy in proximity of obstacles (and debuff it) and for close combat an earth meele weapon +backwater for absorbing damage!

Sorry for my english biggrin
At lv 6 it is +25 damage +40 pushback damage
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Score : 2921

So aside from the general appreciation from Foggers on the buffs of their spells, do we have any other concerns beside the potentially over-powering of swift turret evolution? Do we have any concrete examples from the test server of the spells being reasonable/under-powered/over-powered?

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Score : 13429
Relious|2013-02-18 15:47:24
So aside from the general appreciation from Foggers on the buffs of their spells, do we have any other concerns beside the potentially over-powering of swift turret evolution? Do we have any concrete examples from the test server of the spells being reasonable/under-powered/over-powered?
I cannot speak from personal knowledge for the chance and strength builds, but the int build I can. All builds have gotten a significant buff (Evolution change)
chance in strength builds in particular.
Intel builds got an indirect nerf (leek pie being fixed range as leek pie was the only ranged spell for them)

1. The increase in range of the harpooner makes it more difficult to place the harpooner in a way where it is not a danger to allies (applies to all builds)
2. The reduction in damage to allies is not significant enough to compensate for #1.
3. Scaphander makes certain combos more interesting (including a trident combo, especially now that trident's debuff lasts 2 turns) (applies to all builds but maily strength)
4. now that periscope activates the water state on the harpooner, and that froth has better range, the chance build is fully viable as a pure build rather than a hybrid option. (impacts chance build)
5. Evolution having no initial cooldown seems to have minimal impact on multi foggernaut teams (as of yet in PvP) as the kolossium has yet to match me on the same team as another foggernaut after days of koloing on the test server. In PvM I can see where this may gain abuse later on. (minimal impact in cases observed)
6. However, this removal of initial cooldown means that even if a turret is fully evolved on turn 1, the specials can not be used until turn 2.
7. Evolution changes make foggernauts more useful in shorter fights, and more deadly the longer the fight goes on. (excellent idea, but there may be issues later on)

As the current changes are, foggernauts are not overpowered, but are still a force to be reckoned with.

Suggestion to prevent abuse of evolution: make it only evolve the turrets that belong to that foggernaut. (Global cooldown could work, but would severely hinder multi-foggernaut teams)
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Score : 3

I'm aiming right to the trident combo smile

I would like to know if the trident's poison is applied everytime the target take pushback damage or just once a turn!

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Score : 6165
C080|2013-02-19 14:32:56
I'm aiming right to the trident combo smile

I would like to know if the trident's poison is applied everytime the target take pushback damage or just once a turn!
Every time anyone deals pushback to the target (including your turret).
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Score : 3

I think that abolition of "Initial cool down of Evolution" is not good.
Isn't 1 the better as for Evolution?

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