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The trouble with pandas...

By MagnusFox December 28, 2006, 19:34:10

Okay, so I know we're all sick of the fact that pandas aren't perfect, and that in fact they leave much to be desired, but there's an issue I can't get out of my mind. And that is: I have trouble believing that the ankama team truly thought through the logistics of a melee class in this game. Many people with ranged classes that I play with do comparable or even better damage than I do, and guess what, they don't take any damage, while I take a LOT. I think all effective pandas realized long ago that they need to focus on sets with high defensive powers, such as prespic. I know that this has been talked about before, but it was a revelation for me recently when I realized that if other ranged classes can deal the same damage that melee classes do, then there is NO advantage to being a melee fighter in this game. In other MMOs, such as WoW, being a ranged or melee fighter makes very little difference in the heat of battle, and there are distinct advantages to both. In Dofus, melee can ONLY be a disadvantage, and that is extremely poor planning on the developers' part. 20% dmg reduction doesn't help enough. And don't even get me started on pvp...I recall on rushu that I lost to a couple level 10 cras when I was level 50.

In summary, ankama really has to face the fact that in a TACTICAL mmo, melee combat is a severe hindrance for any player, not just a matter of taste. Until they fix these problems, us pandas can only watch the whole bonta vs. brak thing from afar, hoping, wishing, that someday we might be able to join in.

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I somewhat agree and dont .
As a lv 71 chance/int panda i knew early on my low mobility and linearity was gonna be a hinderance especially in pvp ( i only pvped to rank 3 wings then went back to neutral). Fact is pandas are equipment dependent but even something as simple as a tree stump on a map can null out your +range .
However i find it hard to believe you lost to a lv 10 cra .

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However i find it hard to believe you lost to a lv 10 cra .

OK, to be honest, I can't remember the exact level, but I fought 2 VERY low level cras (below lvl 20, pretty sure below 15) when I was lvl 50ish, and lost. And that's just plain ridiculous. And yes, I guess if I wait till I get Pandatak (im an earth build), then I can join in the pvp fun, but it's still incredibly frustrating to not be able to partake in everyday pvp events like challenges - I'm constantly explaining to people, "Sorry, pandas are useless in pvp, i'm not going to fight you." That's an entire fun/whimsical aspect of the game that us pandas are not privy to.
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try fighting an eca... lost to a bluffer at lvl 50 >_

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Close combat may suck in the early levels but it becomes extremely effective, perhaps overpowered, at higher levels. Weapon damages continues to increase with each level long after spells have reach their maximum effectiveness. Combine this with the massively powerful weapon skills and you've got characters doing 300-600 damage with a close combat attack that can be done two to three times a turn. The only spells that can even slightly compare to this sort of damage output are also close range spells so... yeah smile

Early on, close combat is subpar. As early as level 45-50, dependant upon class, close combat becomes extremely preferable. This is why classes with plentyful buff, movement and utility spells tend to do very well in PvP.

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AlanWB :
Close combat may suck in the early levels but it becomes extremely effective, perhaps overpowered, at higher levels.

Agreed.
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Weapon damages continues to increase with each level long after spells have reach their maximum effectiveness. Combine this with the massively powerful weapon skills and you've got characters doing 300-600 damage

yeah ok
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with a close combat attack that can be done two to three times a turn.

Pandas use Axes.
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The only spells that can even slightly compare to this sort of damage output are also close range spells so... yeah smile

And yet a cra can kill you before you even get within 10 square of him.
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Early on, close combat is subpar. As early as level 45-50, dependant upon class, close combat becomes extremely preferable. This is why classes with plentyful buff, movement and utility spells tend to do very well in PvP.

yes, but pandas are not in that class group
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XxMikeTwoHundredxX :
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AlanWB :
Close combat may suck in the early levels but it becomes extremely effective, perhaps overpowered, at higher levels.
Agreed.
Citation
Weapon damages continues to increase with each level long after spells have reach their maximum effectiveness. Combine this with the massively powerful weapon skills and you've got characters doing 300-600 damage
yeah ok
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with a close combat attack that can be done two to three times a turn.
Pandas use Axes.

Not all of us--but it's preferred for some/most builds. What's your point? There are some great 4ap axes--I've seen them in action. Alan is neither exaggurating nor bullshitting. Be pretty high level before you'll be 3x a turn with an axe consistently, but in group activities a party with an eni/xelor combo and 8ap to begin with would make it entirely feasible--and at close range fearsome.
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The only spells that can even slightly compare to this sort of damage output are also close range spells so... yeah smile
And yet a cra can kill you before you even get within 10 square of him.
Citation
Early on, close combat is subpar. As early as level 45-50, dependant upon class, close combat becomes extremely preferable. This is why classes with plentyful buff, movement and utility spells tend to do very well in PvP.

yes, but pandas are not in that class group

Pandas are difficult early on, no doubt about it. And while they may not shape up to be the most powerful characters in the game, I assure you it does get better. Eventually. If you have the patience smile

They are not the most versatile class in terms damaging and nerfing their enemies -- which puts them at a serious disadvantage pvp. Being all linear, los for ranged attacks, they lack the ranged edge of most classes--even melee classes (eca, xelor) -- which very well may negate their potential efficacy with axes. By the time you're chopping, you may already be dead smile After my long experience with pandas, I think that their biggest "shortcoming" is that they are one of only two classes truly designed to be used with a party rather than solo--eni's being the other. (Granted their support skills also benefit themselves, while ours generally do not.). That being said, pandas played right are a great complement to a tactical battle group and can be a lot of fun. I'm not trying to suppress the point that they are seemingly less powerful individually than other classes level for level -- it's true and I doubt that will ever change. Save for the occasional spell tweak, I think Pandas are precisely what Ankama invisioned them, for better or worse. Perhaps the real problem is that pandas fit far too well into the concept of a TACTICAL mmorpg while other classes would work in or out of the tactical paradigm.

It's no secret that the game favors group action--the xp system alone reveals this. PVP, the standard attitude is one on one dual or you have no ethics. Classes are balanced for group work, not solo work--so the pvp system lends extreme preference to one class or another in each fight, as all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately in terms of 1 on 1 pvp, there's really no compelling feature pandas have over other classes. Were I bent on spending a lot of time at pvp, I'd certainly choose a different class.
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Score : 3225
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Hoobry :
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XxMikeTwoHundredxX :
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AlanWB :
Close combat may suck in the early levels but it becomes extremely effective, perhaps overpowered, at higher levels.
Agreed.
Citation
Weapon damages continues to increase with each level long after spells have reach their maximum effectiveness. Combine this with the massively powerful weapon skills and you've got characters doing 300-600 damage
yeah ok
Citation
with a close combat attack that can be done two to three times a turn.
Pandas use Axes.

Not all of us--but it's preferred for some/most builds. What's your point? There are some great 4ap axes--I've seen them in action. Alan is neither exaggurating nor bullshitting. Be pretty high level before you'll be 3x a turn with an axe consistently, but in group activities a party with an eni/xelor combo and 8ap to begin with would make it entirely feasible--and at close range fearsome.
Citation
Citation
The only spells that can even slightly compare to this sort of damage output are also close range spells so... yeah smile
And yet a cra can kill you before you even get within 10 square of him.
Citation
Early on, close combat is subpar. As early as level 45-50, dependant upon class, close combat becomes extremely preferable. This is why classes with plentyful buff, movement and utility spells tend to do very well in PvP.

yes, but pandas are not in that class group

Pandas are difficult early on, no doubt about it. And while they may not shape up to be the most powerful characters in the game, I assure you it does get better. Eventually. If you have the patience smile

They are not the most versatile class in terms damaging and nerfing their enemies -- which puts them at a serious disadvantage pvp. Being all linear, los for ranged attacks, they lack the ranged edge of most classes--even melee classes (eca, xelor) -- which very well may negate their potential efficacy with axes. By the time you're chopping, you may already be dead smile After my long experience with pandas, I think that their biggest "shortcoming" is that they are one of only two classes truly designed to be used with a party rather than solo--eni's being the other. (Granted their support skills also benefit themselves, while ours generally do not.). That being said, pandas played right are a great complement to a tactical battle group and can be a lot of fun. I'm not trying to suppress the point that they are seemingly less powerful individually than other classes level for level -- it's true and I doubt that will ever change. Save for the occasional spell tweak, I think Pandas are precisely what Ankama invisioned them, for better or worse. Perhaps the real problem is that pandas fit far too well into the concept of a TACTICAL mmorpg while other classes would work in or out of the tactical paradigm.

It's no secret that the game favors group action--the xp system alone reveals this. PVP, the standard attitude is one on one dual or you have no ethics. Classes are balanced for group work, not solo work--so the pvp system lends extreme preference to one class or another in each fight, as all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately in terms of 1 on 1 pvp, there's really no compelling feature pandas have over other classes. Were I bent on spending a lot of time at pvp, I'd certainly choose a different class.

Agreed the pandas existance in this game alone should be proof enough that the devs wanted PVP to be group rather then 1on1 .
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