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How I think Enis should be balanced

By ToSAllen March 13, 2006, 15:55:56

IMO, Enis are too good as tanks. Reason? Regenerating Word + Revitalizing Word's ability to heal the caster.

So... I think that these two things should be done to make Enis less dominant:
1. Make Regenerating Word once-per-turn.
2. Make Revitalizing Word heal everyone except the caster

Doing these two things will make Enis less dominant in p2p. Right now, an Eni with 400ish HP can easily kill most classes of their same level. Even with the +dmg becoming +heal, their ability to heal themselves all the damage they took this turn does not change. Leek Pie is still useable, just not as powerful (so instead of killing an enemy in 4 turns, it's now 8, don't see how this balances things at all). Enis are already a class where you need patience (most Eni fights last forever, because of their lack of dmg per turn... well, Leek Pie does tons, but in battle an Eni usually Regens once or twice a turn to get the HP rolling back up)

So yeah... it's not fair to the other classes when one class is (more expensive in equipment, yes, but that still doesn't justify why it should become nearly dominant) clearly stronger than the rest.

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LOL.
Eni's are getting a major nerf tomorrow.
All their +dmg equip will now be useless for healing. This makes their regen word/ healing worthless -- or it makes their leek pie worthless if they swap out the +dmg for +heal.

Wait until after tomorrow and see what they do with the class.

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IMO, Enis are too good as tanks. Reason? Regenerating Word + Revitalizing Word's ability to heal the caster.

I am an eni ... but I do kinda agree with this. I didn't think of enis as good tanks, until I started playing as one / paying attention to others.

The people at ankama have kept enis somewhat toned down with CFs just about 100% ending their turn.

The new changes coming, at some alter point at least, are to include changing the ap costs and heals for spells. While most of the changes to heals will increase the minimum, it would not surprise me if they decreased the maximum of regeneration.
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So... I think that these two things should be done to make Enis less dominant:
1. Make Regenerating Word once-per-turn.

And increase its minimum, then, because there's a difference between balancing and punishing. Most every eni (not including me, maybe stupidly) has regen up to lvl 5 already.
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2. Make Revitalizing Word heal everyone except the caster

No no, and non! smile this spell epitimizes what an eni is about. It should not be nerfed at all, imo. It would be like nerfing an eca's cenegal claw, an iop's strengthstorm, etc. Despite an eni' ability to last, a spell that does not free up future spell points in the process is not inherantly broken.
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Doing these two things will make Enis less dominant in p2p.

In fact, they would never be in pvp. Because if you did both those things, we'd all trash our enis in spite.
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Leek Pie is still useable, just not as powerful (so instead of killing an enemy in 4 turns, it's now 8, don't see how this balances things at all).

I'm curious, just how much damage you've seen leek pie do? When a late 30's lvl cra can easily top 200 in a turn, a late 20's eca can easily reach 100 in a hit (that they can do twice, and this is just with a arachnee set), a mid 20's osa can easily reach 100 in a turn ... what is so wrong with a >lvl 60 eni who do 45ish to 60ish damage per leek (which they only cast at best 5 times)?
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2. Make Revitalizing Word heal everyone except the caster

No no, and non! smile this spell epitimizes what an eni is about. It should not be nerfed at all, imo. It would be like nerfing an eca's cenegal claw, an iop's strengthstorm, etc. Despite an eni' ability to last, a spell that does not free up future spell points in the process is not inherantly broken.

I agree- Eni's already have the problem of not being able to heal themselves with Curative more than once every two turns, and that usually doesn't cut it when we're being mauled by three or four enemies. Even with Revitalizing Word being able to heal the caster, you still have to dodge the enemies, since it can heal them, too.
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Destroying the two skills that most Enis rely on != balancing the class.

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1. Make Regenerating Word once-per-turn.

And increase its minimum, then, because there's a difference between balancing and punishing. Most every eni (not including me, maybe stupidly) has regen up to lvl 5 already.

I agree on this one. In theory, a eni could cast regenerating word on himself 3 times per turn and get 3 x 5 x 20-40 HP = 300-600 HPs back each turn, combined with a prespic ring that slowly kills any enemy by reflecting the damage (ok, a little extreme but in theory, it would work).
Make it a reliable spell that you can cast once per turn.
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Well yes... nerfs need some buffing too.

I think that Revitalizing Word is so strong that it's taking the place of two spells at once. It covers both Curative Word and Healing Word, which IMO should not be the case. Perhaps if Revitalizing became 4AP and Curative went down to 2-3AP and Healing Word became 2AP, this would all work out well.

Watching an Eni Revit + Regen + Leek Pie (not much damage, but kills you slowly) you to death is unbearably annoying to me, suggesting how overpowered Enis are (even with the upcoming buff, because from some of the current stuff I've seen, a L60ish Eni can actually get more +Heal than they once could get +Dmg, making their heals actually stronger)

So yeah... IMO the biggest problems with Enis are Revitalizing and Regenerating Word.

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LOL.
Eni's are getting a major nerf tomorrow.
All their +dmg equip will now be useless for healing. This makes their regen word/ healing worthless -- or it makes their leek pie worthless if they swap out the +dmg for +heal.

Wait until after tomorrow and see what they do with the class.

Ty for stating the obvious. Of course I know that they are getting a nerf tomorrow, but you're stressing the power of the nerf when you say "Makes their regen word/ healing worthless -- or it makes their leek pie worthless if they swap out the +dmg for +heal". The only thing that will be worthless is Leek Pie, and I think it's about time that happened (too bad they can't hand eliminate Leek Pie from all Enis and return them the Leek Pie scrolls). I've seen (with some of the stuff that Samah displayed on Amakna Square) +heal items under L60 that can easily get you a total of over +30-40 Heal. This is more than most +dmg custom sets, so I don't see where the nerf is for their healing.
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Thats not the biggest problems for enis, u seen eni with staff? smile It can do massive dmges (my lvl eni with good staff can do more dmg than me) So dont u think that if a "healer" can do more damage, than other class, that cant heal itself, it doesnt make sense to play with that class? Any other mmorpg "healer" has weaker spells (eni has weaker spells but who cares there are wands ^^) and it makes those game balance (if u are eni stay back and heal the team), but as i seen some enis becomes beasts in this game, who can do dmge/heal at the same time.

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personally i think that enis deserve those spells. because they have to put up with the extensive lenght of training. Some of the other classes can solo a level 3 gobball (ex. sacrier, iop, osmoda, sadida, sram) at like lvl 2. but the poor, poor eniripsas have to put up with barely being able to kill a white gobball. even then, they basicly have to rely on groups.

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personally i think that enis deserve those spells. because they have to put up with the extensive lenght of training. Some of the other classes can solo a level 3 gobball (ex. sacrier, iop, osmoda, sadida, sram) at like lvl 2. but the poor, poor eniripsas have to put up with barely being able to kill a white gobball. even then, they basicly have to rely on groups.

I'd rather struggle in the first 20 levels (at L21, you struggle no more) and ace through L21-100+ than to ace through the first few levels then struggle as Enis kick your ass all the way after L21.
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Ty for stating the obvious. Of course I know that they are getting a nerf tomorrow, but you're stressing the power of the nerf when you say "Makes their regen word/ healing worthless -- or it makes their leek pie worthless if they swap out the +dmg for +heal". The only thing that will be worthless is Leek Pie, and I think it's about time that happened (too bad they can't hand eliminate Leek Pie from all Enis and return them the Leek Pie scrolls). I've seen (with some of the stuff that Samah displayed on Amakna Square) +heal items under L60 that can easily get you a total of over +30-40 Heal. This is more than most +dmg custom sets, so I don't see where the nerf is for their healing.

You are welcome. From your post, it didn't look as tho you knew about the changes. And yes, there are now (with more coming), a bunch of +heal things out there that can help an eni become a better healer than in the +dmg days. But now enis have to choose whether to deal damage, or to survive it. A high lvl eni can heal all their hps back in a single turn if they have spammed word of regen -- this is true. Of course, if this is the way the battle has gone, that means the eni has done no damage to you yet. And if all of their equip is +heal, they're not likely to be able to do much damage to you either... certainly not with leek anyway -- they may use a wand (limited range) or a hammer (even more limited range) or a sword (very limited range), but the spells they have currently (leek included) are pretty worthless. We'll have to see in an hour or 3 which of us is right when we see the changes to the eni spells.
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From your post, it didn't look as tho you knew about the changes.

It didn't? Read again what Allen wrote in his first post...
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Even with the +dmg becoming +heal, their ability to heal themselves all the damage they took this turn does not change. Leek Pie is still useable, just not as powerful (so instead of killing an enemy in 4 turns, it's now 8, don't see how this balances things at all).

Anyways, back on topic.
I agree on the strange thing that a mass heal spell costs 2 AP while a heal-self or heal-other costs 4 AP. Very strange indeed... This if any is what's unbalanced.
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The thing is, even if your damage is next to nothing, if you can heal back from 1 hp to full in a single turn, even if you can only attack once every 3 turns or so, then you've won against anyone who does less damage than your max HP and can't resist/heal your damage.

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There is something odd about revit. It could use some tweaking. How to tweak it though ... that's really hard. If you lower its max, it basically becomes an "eclipse"-able spell; after so many levels people stop using it. (either you can heal people enough, or you can't) If you raise its AP cost, you probably have to also raise its healing, or else you get that same effect (it becomes pointless to cast it after a while). Even then, you'd have to just about double its healing to bring it to 3AP... that kinda defeats the purpose of nerfing it. I can't see a way to nerf this spell without throwing it away.

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I'd rather struggle in the first 20 levels (at L21, you struggle no more) and ace through L21-100+ than to ace through the first few levels then struggle as Enis kick your ass all the way after L21.

With the eventual change of +heals/+damage, this is no longer a sure thing. All the custom sets that get you great +damage don't get you great +heals. What's you're wisdom going to be like in a +damage/+heals mix, or straight +heals? If you remove heals from the question, eni's no longer are any more advantaged than any other class (unless someone wants to argue that an eni who cant heal worth a damn can out damage an eca, etc etc)
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Perhaps if Revitalizing became 4AP and Curative went down to 2-3AP and Healing Word became 2AP, this would all work out well.

(and somehwere up there someone suggested making revit more stable)

smile Neat. I'm going to compare.
Curative Word (13-19)
Healing Word (8-11)
Revitalizing Word (1-9)

with 8 AP, and a group of 4, including the eni, who need to be healed, I get:
proposed:
me 16, worst-off-ally 9.5, group (4x)5=~20. total: 45.5
(2x)me 32, worst off 9.5. total: 41.5
four worst off/or some combination, 38
two worst off, group: ~39
twice to whole group: ~40

the tilda'd numbers are high. they assume everyone is in the four 100% squares, which is pretty much impossible. Probably can adjust these to 100% for 1 person and 80% for 3 ... 85% = 17 (so subtract three from those numbers)

pre 1.12:
me 16, group 20 = 36
two worst off/any combination: 19
4xgroup = 80

Definitely looks like it evens out revit with the other heals. It also halves the eni's ability to heal though. If you make revit not count on the eni, you can boost those revit numbers up (increasing the general heal of the eni, and get some pvp balance), but likely the eni can't afford to cast it so often because they must heal themselves seperately... group play for the eni suffers.
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I laughed when I first saw some of the decent leveled +heal gear. Because...it didn't nerf Eni at all, it just made them better.

Now, high level Eni are basically ridiculous healers that guarantee battle wins and have good Int to back up their attacks. "But what attacks?" you ask? Wand, naturally.

Given Invisibility, Eni are now basically a sort of Sram who heal themselves. They Invis, buff up with the Wand Skill and Regenerating Words, and then kill you because you can't do jack about it unless you're one of two classes that can reveal Invisible targets. Unlike Sram, they reveal themselves after attacking with their melee weapon, but having a utility like Preventing Word makes that a pretty moot point. If it's a lvl 100+ Eni, it's an even more meaningless point.

Essentially, the problem with Eni is that they can do way too much. Group heal for low AP, prevent damage, turn invisible, full heal anything multiple times per battle at 100, and still do good damage with melee because Weapon Skills make melee the best damage in the game (and their melee actually retains some range on it too).

I've heard the argument that, since Eni specialize in heals, they should be this good...just like Iop is one of the best damage dealers since they lack range and it's what they're meant to specialize in. The problem is, if Eni can even begin to match Iop in terms of heals compared to damage, that means they're outhealing all the damage other classes out there can do. Heck, Iop's Wrath is downright weak compared to the Eni's last spell.

What Eni need to be balanced is cheap single-target heals with decent base, and a bit more costly group heals with lower base. How a 2 AP group healer was ever considered balanced has puzzled me for ages. Eni don't need a million healers, either. Remove the ineffective ones (like Coney) and give them some actual reasonable class attacks, and lastly make Word of Recovery with a longer cooldown rate. Even Iop's Wrath is more AP, with a 1/2 fail rate, 20 turn cooldown, and one meager range.

Eni shouldn't be able to survive forever like cockroaches against all the classes except Iop. Even if they're only healing half the total damage that is being dealt to who they are healing, they're doubling the amount of time it takes to kill that target...which is a huge impact on a battle. Whatever the case, as it stands one Eni is all it takes to make or break a team PvP match even if the enemy has a couple more members than the Eni team...it's just too much.

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wands suck. wands have no range, but can't hit things near you. everything comes near you.

wands are better for enis with inivisibility, in PvP. A smart eni can wait unitl invisibility expires, be at range that turn, attack, and recast.

otherwise, wands are universally the most useless weapon in the game. I'd rather attack with a tool than a wand. at least, until I'm well over lvl 100

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I've seen some pretty nice high level wands, from what I remember; and I've been hit hard enough with 'em too. But even if wands are that bad, using other weapons Eni don't have a big reduction in percent damage with would suffice, and it's still problematic as to how powerful Eni are overall.

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High level eni are complaining, on the french forum, that their regen is useless.

They get killed in one turn, by ecas and iops.

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wand is a great weapon plz dun talk bullshit.

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