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Don't refill HP after Kolossium fights, and 1/2 XP

By Nonnok October 19, 2011, 18:18:48
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Score : 4333
discarder|2011-10-24 19:58:51
I have read all of the visible posts to date for this thread. I *want* to say I have at least a slight grasp on the suggestion Nonnok is posing. Nonnok; correct me if I am off base/wrong, please.
  1. Winning teams should face a hp penalty, so that they are forced to keep using consumables as in earlier PvP.
  2. Losing teams should not face hp penalty, within reason; reason such as 100 levels of difference and being slaughtered outright.
  3. Losing teams should incur the same hp penalty as those faced by Winning teams.

I have seen some outlying concerns, that weren't even in the original post, such as concerns over pets hp and energy loss. Fundamentally speaking, these too should be added to the list, as that is how PvP was prior to Kolo.

I am not a fan of the Kolo, my main team (191-199 characters) have had thier butss handed to them, usually by a team of 2 200s and 199, or a team of 3 200s, and it wasn't tactics, or skill that played the deciding factor; it was the gear. My chars suffer from primarily pre-frig gear because my team hasn't been able to get past Obsidemon; and our make up is usually in flux to get a better synergy going to get there and past it; so things like peccary blade and fuji sets with the 'norm' exo/over mages just does a bit of overkill when looking at balances. But we will go there in a completely different topic at some other time.

The Kolo shouldn't get special privileges. It should have the same ramifications as all other prior forms of PvP had. It should have the HP penalties, should have Energy penalties, and Pet penalties. But that is my opinion.

To make a long post shorter: I am in support of this suggestion Nonnok.


You've got it mostly.

1 and 3 in your list are indeed what I'm saying. I'd be fine with 2. I've already stated that unbalanced fights aren't really considered fights as much as they are slaughters and massacres and a poor system design flaw. I'd like to see everyone in Kolossium lose HP, both winners and losers, just like in the previous PvP systems. I'm willing to declare the unbalanced fights a mulligan and give those participants a do over with full HP in a more balanced match.

I'll let others suggest energy and pet loss. Just to clarify, players lost energy in PvP fights, but pets have never suffered HP loss in defeats. I don't see any reason to introduce it now. I'm not opposed to energy loss from the Kolossium defeats, but I won't suggest it. That's a non issue with me, simply because it doesn't have nearly the detrimental economic impact on professions that automatic HP replenishment has.
_____________

@Scientiavore
You're making an example of an exception rather than the rule. Using one example of a wisdom build completing good challenges doesn't validate the argument that "the XP you gain from PvM blows the Kolossium XP out of the water."

I could use an exception for Kolossium as well and use an example of being matched up against subpar competition six matches in a row where they gave up immediately or I annihilated them in one or two turns. That's 30 million experience for me in a similar timeframe, which is contradictory to your argument. Unfortunately, both your example and mine have to be thrown out because they represent an outlier in a collection of data results that establish a norm.

There are a couple of class combinations here and there that can quickly rack up the experience against specific monsters in PvM, but even those represent the exception rather than the rule. I think most players who have done both Kolossium and PvM will agree with me that you can level much more quickly at the moment off Kolossium than you can in PvM due to the insane rewards.
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Talith,

I remember reading in the kolossium update that the formula for rating was like this, to quote izmar:

A character’s Rating number is composed of two values:
Mu: the power of a character as perceived by the system.
Sigma: the measure of knowledge (or lack of knowledge) that the system has about a character’s power. Distilled to a single word, it is a measure of uncertainty.

The Mu value increases after a Kolossium victory and diminishes after a Kolossium defeat.
The Sigma value increases after a surprising result and diminishes after an expected result.
If you lose fights where your odds are considered good and win fights where your odds are considered poor, your uncertainty will increase.
However, if you regularly win when your odds are considered good and lose when your odds are considered poor, your uncertainty will decrease.

A character’s Rating is equal to: Mu - 3x Sigma.

This means that a character whose power is significant but uncertain can have a weak Rating.

Generally, the more a character fights, the weaker its uncertainty ranking will be (the system will find it easier to determine the power of a character after they have participated in lots of fights).

A character that has not ever participated in Kolossium fights lacks the history needed to assign it a Rating. Therefore, the system will assign an initial set of values for that character's first fight(s).

The default power ranking will be calculated based on the character's level (for now).
The default uncertainty ranking will be equal to its power divided by 3.
Using the Rating formula (Mu - 3x Sigma), all characters will begin with a null Ranking.

I could be mistaken but I think for match-ups they probably use the Mu value (if not they should). I aso remember reading in another thread that what the devs do is increase the Mu range for searching for matchups if a match-up wasn't found within a certain time limit. If they stop that practice, theoretically there shouldn't be any blowout matches, as I seriously doubt a lvl 50-80 could reach a rating greater than 1200 with fair play. I've pvpd with a low lvl pvp alt for fun, and every person I pvpd with at the lvl 50-100 range had a rating less than 600, as opposed to my main which currently has a rating of 1600 or so.

Nonnok,

I've always found pvm to give a lot more xp per minute than what the kolossium gives. A fight at the kolossium gives a lvl 199 about 5 m xp, and with each match lasting about 10 minutes (I find matches tend to last a bit longer but we'll use that estimate), and a 50% winning %, that's about 5 m xp every 20 minutes on average. That's not even including the long waiting times that can occur. Now if we look at the main page, we often see players who have gained over 150 m xp in a single day. Atm, the person displayed gained 240 m xp and is a sac. I doubt this player gained this xp by participating in 100 kolossium fights. In fact, if you check his page right now you'd see he gained this xp by doing buck anear and crocabulia fights, and mostly crocabulia fights. Croca isn't even considered a prime lvling monster. There have been players who have lvld characters from 1 to 200 in just a few weeks through pvm, a feat that I doubt will ever be accomplished through the kolossium. Even as a relatively casual player with low wisdom, I find the xp to be better from pvm.
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Scientiavore|2011-10-26 04:06:52
Nonnok,

I've always found pvm to give a lot more xp per minute than what the kolossium gives. A fight at the kolossium gives a lvl 199 about 5 m xp, and with each match lasting about 10 minutes (I find matches tend to last a bit longer but we'll use that estimate), and a 50% winning %, that's about 5 m xp every 20 minutes on average. That's not even including the long waiting times that can occur. Now if we look at the main page, we often see players who have gained over 150 m xp in a single day. Atm, the person displayed gained 240 m xp and is a sac. I doubt this player gained this xp by participating in 100 kolossium fights. In fact, if you check his page right now you'd see he gained this xp by doing buck anear and crocabulia fights, and mostly crocabulia fights. Croca isn't even considered a prime lvling monster. There have been players who have lvld characters from 1 to 200 in just a few weeks through pvm, a feat that I doubt will ever be accomplished through the kolossium. Even as a relatively casual player with low wisdom, I find the xp to be better from pvm.

The 50/50% really doesn't mean anything. You're ignoring the fact that a team can suicide when it's hopeless, and immediately reregister for another fight. Time is not an issue with Kolossium, thanks to auto replenishing HP. After suiciding, the odds go up to win the next one. You're ignoring recruit times and the time it takes to run an entire dungeon to get to the maximum XP situation. You're also ignoring the fact that to gain maximum XP in PvM in the shortest amount of time, you've got to be in a team of 6-8. That means recruiting, or having your own team. Recruiting means waiting/more time. With Kolossium, you don't need a team. You can register solo and the game immediately finds your teammates for you. You're also basing 240mil experience off the last 5 monsters killed on his character page profile, which is ignorant. You can assume that's how he got his experience, but that's all you can do. Your math is also wrong. 100 Kolossium fights at 199 is about 495mil experience. So it's very possible he could have won around 20-30 Kolossium fights and done a bit of PvM in between for 240mil experience. But it would be equally ignorant for me to assume that, so I won't. We just don't know how that character earned experience based off the most recent few PvM fights he took part in, so there's no point in assuming or speculation? Agreed?

I'm not denying experience may be better for you in PvM. It just might be. It all depends on your build. Are you set up for PvP, or for PvM? I have a better time/xp ratio in PvP at the moment. Many people do. Like I've repeated throughout this thread. My suggestion is based off my experiences. Not yours. Not someone else's. And I find the experience rewarded based off my own experiences to be way out of whack.
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pancoexx|2011-10-20 07:33:37
made me LOL so hard fell out of my comp chair
Ironic because your statement made me do the same thing....


and here i am going meh...not that funny

Nonnok|2011-10-26 04:30:07
Scientiavore|2011-10-26 04:06:52
Nonnok,

I've always found pvm to give a lot more xp per minute than what the kolossium gives. A fight at the kolossium gives a lvl 199 about 5 m xp, and with each match lasting about 10 minutes (I find matches tend to last a bit longer but we'll use that estimate), and a 50% winning %, that's about 5 m xp every 20 minutes on average. That's not even including the long waiting times that can occur. Now if we look at the main page, we often see players who have gained over 150 m xp in a single day. Atm, the person displayed gained 240 m xp and is a sac. I doubt this player gained this xp by participating in 100 kolossium fights. In fact, if you check his page right now you'd see he gained this xp by doing buck anear and crocabulia fights, and mostly crocabulia fights. Croca isn't even considered a prime lvling monster. There have been players who have lvld characters from 1 to 200 in just a few weeks through pvm, a feat that I doubt will ever be accomplished through the kolossium. Even as a relatively casual player with low wisdom, I find the xp to be better from pvm.

The 50/50% really doesn't mean anything. You're ignoring the fact that a team can suicide when it's hopeless, and immediately reregister for another fight. Time is not an issue with Kolossium, thanks to auto replenishing HP. After suiciding, the odds go up to win the next one. You're ignoring recruit times and the time it takes to run an entire dungeon to get to the maximum XP situation. You're also ignoring the fact that to gain maximum XP in PvM in the shortest amount of time, you've got to be in a team of 6-8. That means recruiting, or having your own team. Recruiting means waiting/more time. With Kolossium, you don't need a team. You can register solo and the game immediately finds your teammates for you. You're also basing 240mil experience off the last 5 monsters killed on his character page profile, which is ignorant. You can assume that's how he got his experience, but that's all you can do. Your math is also wrong. 100 Kolossium fights at 199 is about 495mil experience. So it's very possible he could have won around 20-30 Kolossium fights and done a bit of PvM in between for 240mil experience. But it would be equally ignorant for me to assume that, so I won't. We just don't know how that character earned experience based off the most recent few PvM fights he took part in, so there's no point in assuming or speculation? Agreed?

I'm not denying experience may be better for you in PvM. It just might be. It all depends on your build. Are you set up for PvP, or for PvM? I have a better time/xp ratio in PvP at the moment. Many people do. Like I've repeated throughout this thread. My suggestion is based off my experiences. Not yours. Not someone else's. And I find the experience rewarded based off my own experiences to be way out of whack.

Achualy you have to wait 30 minutes if you exit a fight... unless you mean kill themselves which yes.. they can immediatly look for another fight
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koloss wouldnt use a single value vore. it would use the actual rating a player sees, aka their current rating. there are always exceptions to the rule as well.

case in point? the koloss xp may blow chunks for you, but for my eni? to get 3m or more xp, i need to run bherb with a MINIMUM of 150% challenges, or moowolf with a minimum of 300% challenges. the last of which is impossible for the given challenges unless we both get scanty and to each his pwn, and even then its still debatable. and both of those are dungeons that take about 30-40 minutes to get through. mobs out of dungeons? it can take a good hour to hour and a half to get 3m xp once you include searching for mobs, and then getting the 4-6 characters in the group there. koloss is capable of giving me more xp per hour than pvm can POSSIBLY give me unless i spent days before gathering souls.

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Ques-Alt|2011-10-26 04:38:51
Achualy you have to wait 30 minutes if you exit a fight... unless you mean kill themselves which yes.. they can immediatly look for another fight


Yes, I'm talking about suiciding. Not leaving the fight.
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@ Nonnok- Um, maybe my memory is faulty, it may be; but HHQ, Prisms, Percs all encountered HP loss for pets. The only exception to this was the Perc defense in the event that they lost, and then they were just 'moved' to their save spot with 1HP. I say this because my most memorable PvP fight was under the very old system, where I gained a rank while I deranked, ghosted the player, and ghosted/killed his pet when pets did not turn into ghosts. It would be another month or so before pets whom died turned into ghosts themselves. I have lost HP on pets attacking percs recently to just go to the Prim Cemetary (and the blasted timer sucks anus for this when you are trying to lose 10k energy to go someplace; we really should get an npc to do it for us) because I had forgotten to deequip it.

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I... don't really get the complaints.

The idea was clearly to make PvP fun again, and removing the frustration. There's no penalty for losing other than the time spent, so you don't have to go through all the rigamarole of healing yourself and your pets and taking energy potions and so forth, and there's benefits for winning, to make people want to participate. That's not some flaw of the system, that's it's greatest strength.

No longer will you be attacked out of the blue by someone who wants to kill you for experience and Strokens. (While it is, of course, still possible to attack people in random PvP, there's no benefit to the winner or the loser, so the people who only Headhunted for the goodies won't be doing that anymore). The new PvP system is 100% voluntary. If you're in a Kolosseum fight, it's not because someone attacked you out of the blue while you were cutting down trees, it's because you said "What the heck, lemme sign up for a match" all on your own.

Regardless of anything else, that is a vast improvement. It lets primarily-PvM players like me dip their toe into PvP without getting dragged into the Headhunter morass, where you had to be in your best gear, all the time, and constantly watching the computer screen, or risk being slaughtered by someone who aggresses you when you take a break from leveling Fishing to go to the bathroom. (And my best gear isn't that great, which is why my Rating is only 350-ish, and doesn't look to be going any higher any time soon. I'd have been a constant sitting duck in the Headhunter system).

The experience being really good is meant to make up for the length of fights (team PvP fights are generally longer than monster fights), and to make up for the intended 50% loss rate. "I got 1 million experience!" is good, but "I got 1 million experience in a fight that took me twenty minutes, after I lost a fight that also took me twenty minutes" is not as good. I've had a few nights where I only win one out of eight matches. So while I need fewer fights than I would need if I were monster-hunting, it still takes about the same amount of time to actually level, and the fights themselves aren't as boring.

(I'm don't like grinding. I can't fight the same monster over and over and over and over for hours to gain one level. Fighting an ever-changing assortment of opponents with an ever-changing assortment of allies is less straightforward and far more interesting, even though my victories are far less guaranteed)

There's a few issues (like, yeah, Soulstones being tied to PvP, as well as Dofus-slot Trophies, and sometimes it's difficult to find balanced fights), but overall, this is the most fun PvP system the game's had, and punishing players for using it is not a further improvement.

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so you find nothing wrong with something that is no different than a 3v3 CHALLENGE that gives you xp with absolutely zero risk, zero money spent, and zero effort?

people can suffer to have actual hp loss at the end of fights. "but then i cant go right back into another fight" oh boo-freaking-hoo. right-click your bread pile, select multiple use, hit max and click the checkmark BEFORE YOU ENTER THE NEXT FIGHT. viola, your complaint is now invalid. "koloss doesnt give me enough kamas from fights to pay for bread" whine whine whine. neither did pvp. sell the soulstone and trophy materials. or sell trophies. or all of the above. cant afford to buy the bread still? find a baker willing to trade the bread for items, such as, for example, koloss items.

The experience being really good is meant to make up for the length of fights (team PvP fights are generally longer than monster fights), and to make up for the intended 50% loss rate. "I got 1 million experience!" is good, but "I got 1 million experience in a fight that took me twenty minutes, after I lost a fight that also took me twenty minutes" is not as good. I've had a few nights where I only win one out of eight matches. So while I need fewer fights than I would need if I were monster-hunting, it still takes about the same amount of time to actually level, and the fights themselves aren't as boring.

this is something else i want to address. again. at low levels the xp is fine, and at epic levels the xp is "meh." but it is the xp people get in the middle range, such as the 160s for my eni, that makes the xp from koloss far too high. 3m xp for a 10-20 minute fight, lets say 30 minutes to include a generous amount of time for whatever shitty team i get assigned to to get walloped by 200s. 3m xp in half an hour. not even 10 star FIREFOUX mobs can stand up to that. the only fights that come close to that much xp are BOSS fights with an excess of 100%-400% in challenges, some of which are genuinely impossible to achieve. that isnt always the case at your level, but at mine? there is not a lot that can beat koloss in xp and time.
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discarder|2011-10-26 09:51:25
@ Nonnok- Um, maybe my memory is faulty, it may be; but HHQ, Prisms, Percs all encountered HP loss for pets. The only exception to this was the Perc defense in the event that they lost, and then they were just 'moved' to their save spot with 1HP. I say this because my most memorable PvP fight was under the very old system, where I gained a rank while I deranked, ghosted the player, and ghosted/killed his pet when pets did not turn into ghosts. It would be another month or so before pets whom died turned into ghosts themselves. I have lost HP on pets attacking percs recently to just go to the Prim Cemetary (and the blasted timer sucks anus for this when you are trying to lose 10k energy to go someplace; we really should get an npc to do it for us) because I had forgotten to deequip it.

I haven't experienced pet HP loss in any form of PvP since 2006. Energy loss, yes. But my pets haven't suffered in prisms, percs, or headhunting for a long, long time.

@Darkstorm
I... don't really get your complaints either.:blink:

Talith gave you the cliff notes version of what I'd say in response. The only frustrations of the headhunting system were the paper/rock/scissors solo battles that were rarely balanced, and the over-rewarding nature of the quest. Both of those are gone now

HP loss was never an issue. Not until I suggested removing it in this very thread. Your entire post has nothing to do with the advantages of auto HP replenishment, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to disregard pretty much the whole thing...

Darkstorm|2011-10-26 11:47:23
I... don't really get the complaints.

The idea was clearly to make PvP fun again, and removing the frustration. There's no penalty for losing other than the time spent, so you don't have to go through all the rigamarole of healing yourself and your pets and taking energy potions and so forth, and there's benefits for winning, to make people want to participate. That's not some flaw of the system, that's it's greatest strength.I'm not suggesting pet HP loss, or energy loss, so that has nothing to do with this discussion. If double clicking a food item was rigmarole for you, I pity your motor skills and question if you should be playing Dofus.

No longer will you be attacked out of the blue by someone who wants to kill you for experience and Strokens. (While it is, of course, still possible to attack people in random PvP, there's no benefit to the winner or the loser, so the people who only Headhunted for the goodies won't be doing that anymore). The new PvP system is 100% voluntary. If you're in a Kolosseum fight, it's not because someone attacked you out of the blue while you were cutting down trees, it's because you said "What the heck, lemme sign up for a match" all on your own.
Has nothing to do with HP loss, or with this discussion.
Regardless of anything else, that is a vast improvement. It lets primarily-PvM players like me dip their toe into PvP without getting dragged into the Headhunter morass, where you had to be in your best gear, all the time, and constantly watching the computer screen, or risk being slaughtered by someone who aggresses you when you take a break from leveling Fishing to go to the bathroom. (And my best gear isn't that great, which is why my Rating is only 350-ish, and doesn't look to be going any higher any time soon. I'd have been a constant sitting duck in the Headhunter system).Again. Has nothing to do with HP loss, or with this discussion. You can still get attacked outside the Kolossium while taking a piss with your wings up, and lose your HP.

The experience being really good is meant to make up for the length of fights (team PvP fights are generally longer than monster fights), and to make up for the intended 50% loss rate. "I got 1 million experience!" is good, but "I got 1 million experience in a fight that took me twenty minutes, after I lost a fight that also took me twenty minutes" is not as good. I've had a few nights where I only win one out of eight matches. So while I need fewer fights than I would need if I were monster-hunting, it still takes about the same amount of time to actually level, and the fights themselves aren't as boring.

(I'm don't like grinding. I can't fight the same monster over and over and over and over for hours to gain one level. Fighting an ever-changing assortment of opponents with an ever-changing assortment of allies is less straightforward and far more interesting, even though my victories are far less guaranteed)Others can. And do. Why should your be rewarded more than them for less effort? And you've clearly indicated it's less effort.

There's a few issues (like, yeah, Soulstones being tied to PvP, as well as Dofus-slot Trophies, and sometimes it's difficult to find balanced fights), but overall, this is the most fun PvP system the game's had, and punishing players for using it is not a further improvement.I agree with you. But again, this has nothing to do with HP loss. And since HP loss was never the issue in previous PvP systems, removing the auto replenish feature shouldn't make it any less fun. After all, the experiences you've just described in the body of your post that make PvP fun for you have nothing to do with HP loss.
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Talith: I never said it was faster or easier. I said it was less monotonous. Monsters have predictable patterns which never change regardless of how long the fight goes on. Players each play differently from each other (even if they're the same class), and their strategy tends to change as they get low on HP (they stop being direct and get more cautious, or they stop using careful strategies and rush you to try to go out in a blaze of glory, or a virtually unlimited number of different possibilities). I'm not sure why you think that coping with an ever-changing array of opponents and strategies takes "no effort", but sleepwalking through fights with the same unchanging monster requires a tactical genius.

Nonnok: I never said that clicking on one piece of bread once was a rigamarole, I meant that the entire process of getting bread (including getting the money to get bread, or spending a few days leveling up my baker to make the good bread - right now, Rolled Oats is the best I can make for myself), as well as getting and using Enirpsa Powders for pets, as well as getting or making Energy Potions, and so forth is the rigamarole. Bread doesn't even exist in the game that could restore all my health by using just one.

Since you both missed my main point and just decided to dismiss everything I said (or make up things that I never said in the first place), I'll rephrase, and bold it for emphasis:

I don't understand why you think being convenient is some sort of horrible "problem" that needs to be solved.

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Because that convenience is destroying several markets and costing many players their source of income.

Everyone used to use bread before the Kolossium, why the resistance to what has been the norm since the start of Dofus?

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SilentRevenge|2011-10-27 12:15:37
Because that convenience is destroying several markets and costing many players their source of income.

Everyone used to use bread before the Kolossium, why the resistance to what has been the norm since the start of Dofus?

Because when the "norm" is less convenient than the new feature, I'd rather have the new feature. "It's always been this way" is a terrible argument to use for making things less convenient.

Once it was "the norm" for potions to be the only way to restore Energy. Once it was "the norm" for your entire team to have to individually walk to every dungeon. Once it was "the norm" for there to be no way to reset your stats (let alone four different ways). Once it was "the norm" to have to craft potions (with very rare and difficult-to-acquire ingredients) to reset spells.

Those were all changed for convenience, to make the game less annoying. True, restoring energy automatically made it more difficult for Alchemists to sell energy potions, and being able to buy spell-resetting potions (and, later, resetting them with Otomai or Dopples) took dozens of potions out of their recipe list, but neither change put them out of business. This one won't put bakers out of business, either. (It's not like running dungeons won't be required to get better gear required to raise your Ranking)

This update may have slightly hurt bakers, but it also was a boon to shieldsmiths (who are required to make the new trophies). And I say this as someone who has a Baker and an Alchemist, but doesn't have any Shieldsmiths.
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Darkstorm|2011-10-27 11:56:40
Talith: I never said it was faster or easier. I said it was less monotonous. Monsters have predictable patterns which never change regardless of how long the fight goes on. Players each play differently from each other (even if they're the same class), and their strategy tends to change as they get low on HP (they stop being direct and get more cautious, or they stop using careful strategies and rush you to try to go out in a blaze of glory, or a virtually unlimited number of different possibilities). I'm not sure why you think that coping with an ever-changing array of opponents and strategies takes "no effort", but sleepwalking through fights with the same unchanging monster requires a tactical genius.

Nonnok: I never said that clicking on one piece of bread once was a rigamarole, I meant that the entire process of getting bread (including getting the money to get bread, or spending a few days leveling up my baker to make the good bread - right now, Rolled Oats is the best I can make for myself), as well as getting and using Enirpsa Powders for pets, as well as getting or making Energy Potions, and so forth is the rigamarole. Bread doesn't even exist in the game that could restore all my health by using just one.

Since you both missed my main point and just decided to dismiss everything I said (or make up things that I never said in the first place), I'll rephrase, and bold it for emphasis:

I don't understand why you think being convenient is some sort of horrible "problem" that needs to be solved.
strategies dont play a role, or are even relevant. my point is that YES its a change of pace, but in order to gain a comparable xp, i have to spend many many times LONGER in dungeons to come close to it. and it takes zero effort because in the 40-60+ minutes it takes for me to get through a dungeon run of 3m+ xp, i can get through 4 or more fights in koloss, easily throwing the first two fights to increase the chances of subsequent fights being wins. in the circumstances this is successful, i just gained 6m xp faster than a dungeon.

second, nonnok is only asking for PLAYER HEALTH POINT LOSS. i dont think he even gives a damn on whether or not players lose energy or pet hp. so for the love of god stop getting so hung up over it. also, if rolled oat bread is the best you got, either your farmer isnt 100, or you dont even have a farmer. both cases you're doing something horribly wrong.

here's why there's such a problem with the "convenience" of koloss not causing health loss. its no different than a friggin challenge. you throw in retarded xp rewards you basically get headhunter with absolutely zero risk in the entire system. oh, you also get zero COST in the entire system. dont got bread? oh no problem, you dont even have to /sit to recover your health since you never lost any and can jump right back into another koloss fight. here's another part of the problem. all those pvpers are suddenly no longer buying bread. result? they have more money for themselves and are earning koloss tokens to buy the pebbles. result? pvm players who relied on bread to make money are spending money on those pebbles to make soul stones and trophies. result? more money is shifting towards pvp players instead of flowing between pvp and pvm ends of the game. and you dont see a problem with that?

and silentrevenge has the right of it. you have any idea how much damn bread i have in the bank because it isnt selling? nearly eight thousand qui leure bread. that isnt including the 1100 on the market right now. that bread has been there for over a week now, and i know with certainty that i am one of a handful of bakers who provide this bread at such a low price, and it has not sold in over a week. 2000 qui leure would sell within HOURS before koloss was released. now it hardly sells in days. your "convenience" has destroyed my market. i'll be damn lucky if i can maintain 3 subscriptions. the four subscriptions i was hoping to maintain isnt even close to wishful thinking because of this. oh sure, if bread sales still happen, i MIGHT be able to maintain 1-2 accounts, but i'm damn sure it wont be spent leveling because i wouldnt be able to AFFORD new gear.

you can deal with the convenience of easy and less monotonous fights by suffering a little hp loss like you do in every other fight out there. it wont kill you.

edit: "slightly hurt bakers" is a massive understatement. nearly as massive as the overflow of unsold bread in my bank as a matter of fact.
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Score : 7810
Darkstorm|2011-10-27 12:47:28
SilentRevenge|2011-10-27 12:15:37
Because that convenience is destroying several markets and costing many players their source of income.

Everyone used to use bread before the Kolossium, why the resistance to what has been the norm since the start of Dofus?

Because when the "norm" is less convenient than the new feature, I'd rather have the new feature. "It's always been this way" is a terrible argument to use for making things less convenient.

Once it was "the norm" for potions to be the only way to restore Energy. Once it was "the norm" for your entire team to have to individually walk to every dungeon. Once it was "the norm" for there to be no way to reset your stats (let alone four different ways). Once it was "the norm" to have to craft potions (with very rare and difficult-to-acquire ingredients) to reset spells.

Those were all changed for convenience, to make the game less annoying. True, restoring energy automatically made it more difficult for Alchemists to sell energy potions, and being able to buy spell-resetting potions (and, later, resetting them with Otomai or Dopples) took dozens of potions out of their recipe list, but neither change put them out of business. This one won't put bakers out of business, either. (It's not like running dungeons won't be required to get better gear required to raise your Ranking)

This update may have slightly hurt bakers, but it also was a boon to shieldsmiths (who are required to make the new trophies). And I say this as someone who has a Baker and an Alchemist, but doesn't have any Shieldsmiths.
"It's the norm" wasn't my argument. Re-read the very 1st line of my post. "It's convenient" is no excuse to screw over hunters/butchers/farmers/bakers, even marginally fisherman/alchemists

"Slightly hurt bakers"? Are you kidding? The market almost flat-lined in the 1st week of Kolossium. Nobody was using any bread because there was no need for it.

Also why do you insist on bringing in subjects that have no relevance to the topic. What does it matter to the topic if Shield-smith got a boost?

Edit: Seeing as your so insisting on using "the norm" comment on my post, let me cover a few things for you there:

Energy restoration/de-leveling potions - Alchemists did not solely make a full-time income out of this. Among other things they had profession remove poitions, recall/city potions, de-leveling potions and health potions. While the energy being restored did hurt one part of that, they did not remove energy loss as they did with Kolossium, they merely gave an alternative to restoring it. Where as with this "convenience" the entire focus of the Baker profession (health restoration) just took a hell of a nose-dive in necessity.

Not having to walk to dungeons/being able to reset in no way had a negative impact on anyone, so they are irrelevant to the topic.
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Score : 11334

It was flatlined for a week because the Kolosseum is New and Shiny, but as the novelty wears off (as it already has for many people) and people start fighting monsters again, bread will once again be needed.

I keep "bringing other things in" because you keep trying to act as if the Kolosseum and bread markets are in some sort of vaccuum, isolated from the rest of the game. They're not. Bakers having a downturn in business and shieldmakers having an upturn in business are both part of the same Dofus economy.

PvM is still going to be required to make gear for PvP (you don't need great gear to win matches in general, but you need great gear to get that coveted 1200 ranking), so bread will likewise be required for those fights.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Headhunter system was single-handedly supporting all the bakers in the game, and now that it's gone nobody needs bread anymore and never will again?

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Score : 563
Darkstorm|2011-10-27 16:26:59
PvM is still going to be required to make gear for PvP (you don't need great gear to win matches in general, but you need great gear to get that coveted 1200 ranking), so bread will likewise be required for those fights.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Headhunter system was single-handedly supporting all the bakers in the game, and now that it's gone nobody needs bread anymore and never will again?

My guess in what Nonnok, Chaos, Talith and others are partly trying to convey is "What's the point to continue PvM when you could tank a few kolo fights, win some, level at a faster clip, sell your kolo drops for income and use that to buy your next kolo gear without spending anything else in the game to keep it going?" Like level to 40, get yourself a decent battle set then zaap sit and level while contributing to the server as little as possible.
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Score : 7810
Darkstorm|2011-10-27 16:26:59
It was flatlined for a week because the Kolosseum is New and Shiny, but as the novelty wears off (as it already has for many people) and people start fighting monsters again, bread will once again be needed.

I keep "bringing other things in" because you keep trying to act as if the Kolosseum and bread markets are in some sort of vaccuum, isolated from the rest of the game. They're not. Bakers having a downturn in business and shieldmakers having an upturn in business are both part of the same Dofus economy.

PvM is still going to be required to make gear for PvP (you don't need great gear to win matches in general, but you need great gear to get that coveted 1200 ranking), so bread will likewise be required for those fights.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Headhunter system was single-handedly supporting all the bakers in the game, and now that it's gone nobody needs bread anymore and never will again?
Nobody is acting as if Kolo/Baker is in a vacuum, the 2 are merely the subjects of the topic. PvPers normally being the majority of the consumers of bread makes the 2 focus of the subject.

Nobody is asking that shieldsmith be changed back, nor does it affect how the baker profession lost the majority of its clients, so it has nothing to do with the topic, regardless of being part of the same economy. you might as well be saying "It doesn't matter that Bakers now have a ton less business because look, Iops got a buff!"

Your making it sound like people die as often in dungeons as they do in PvP, which is nowhere near the truth. Yes, PvM will still require bread, but nowhere near the same amount that HH required. With HH, in every single fight somebody died and had their health drop to 0 and needed bread to heal up 100's if not 1000's of health. The opponent also took damage and had to heal, often considerably if it was a close fight. No, that does not mean HH single-handedly supported the bread market, but PvPers were definitely the majority consumers by a HUGE margin.

Where has that huge portion of consumers gone now? They just disappeared.
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Score : 4333
Darkstorm|2011-10-27 16:26:59
It was flatlined for a week because the Kolosseum is New and Shiny, but as the novelty wears off (as it already has for many people) and people start fighting monsters again, bread will once again be needed.

I keep "bringing other things in" because you keep trying to act as if the Kolosseum and bread markets are in some sort of vaccuum, isolated from the rest of the game. They're not. Bakers having a downturn in business and shieldmakers having an upturn in business are both part of the same Dofus economy.

PvM is still going to be required to make gear for PvP (you don't need great gear to win matches in general, but you need great gear to get that coveted 1200 ranking), so bread will likewise be required for those fights.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Headhunter system was single-handedly supporting all the bakers in the game, and now that it's gone nobody needs bread anymore and never will again?

People are fighting monsters now... and bread isn't selling like it should be. And why would you assume the novelty will wear off of Kolossium? It didn't wear off of HH even with such an unbalanced system. Why would you think it will be any different this time? I recently started to rebuild a guild on my server. It's tripled in size over the past week with Kolossium fighters. Most new members participate in Kolossium all day, every day. There is no reason for them to do anything else. Obviously they all recognize the imbalance in the reward system as well.

So many players are using and abusing Kolossium there isn't a large enough market for food sellers in the game anymore and those players are losing their income. We are saying Headhunter (and all forms of PvP prior to this one) were the main support for food sellers. Do you think it's pure coincidence the sales of food items stopped with auto HP replenishment?

You need a broader view than Kolossium affects baker. Kolossium has had a detrimental impact on six professions. Six! Farmer, baker, fisherman, fishmonger, hunter, and butcher. None of these professions can sell their products efficiently anymore, as the largest customer base no longer needs to replenish HP. I'd even make the argument that this system has a detrimental impact on a seventh profession (alchemist) with the decreased demand in healing potions and energy potions. But I won't include alchemist (even though I should) among those professions. And I'm being very damn generous to not include that. I have a level 100 alchemist. This idea of new increased demand on this profession isn't nearly as big as you're trying to sell to everyone. I've sold two farmland and forest essence potions over the past week. Two! I've had one request for a guildmate to make one. One request. Where is this boom in business you're touting?

The fact is, this system had stripped six professions (seven if you're intelligent) of their income potential. It has created an increased demand in one. Shieldsmith. I'm not going to include lumberjack in the increased demand category. I also have a 100 LJ. I have seen no increase in plank sales over the past week.

Try telling me again the Kolossium system has had a positive impact on professions and the economy in general...
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Score : 254

Non is right.

There needs to be consequences for losing a fight, I can't believe I'm even saying losing HP should be a consequence as it should be the norm. Fighting in a win/win situation is detrimental, not to those participating but as we're seeing here; Food sales falling.

There seems to be an ever increasing HP regen system in games these days, It doesn't really make sense to me as simply losing HP from fighting is a given in any game. Can't afford the bread? Then don't fight, or sit out and wait for your HP to refill. If people come on Xp hunts with me and they don't have bread/healing items they get thrown out. Consequence, Kolo needs it.

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