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Monster unbewitchment

By AngryBeardIvI - SUBSCRIBER - December 29, 2011, 16:40:58

So ok the last class change braught a very big game changer for a lot of peoples stratergies (lol stratergies, something thats getting less and less in my opinion). But the biggest of these were the changes to unbewitchment for characters. Now i would like to ask this one question and get your opinions on it.

If us as characters have to deal with this new unbewitchment system, how come monsters that unbewitch havent had there spells changed too?

I mean its a valid debate and concern. Why one rule for us as players and another for the pvm monsters? This made kwistmas island very frustrating and the reason after doing the quests I left it thinking epic fail. The monsters where just unfun to fight.

So I put it to you the player base what do you think about monsters unbewitchment spells not being changed according to the player unbewitchment spell changes?

Also I might add ankama anounced they would change certain bosses to make these changes not so detrimental. Yet so far I haven't seen any change to any bosses.

So theres my curious question.

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Aye, the fact that the monsters have such a great unbewitch compared to players is a spurce of frustration to me as well. They should only be able to reduce from 1 to 4 rounds of ongoing effects just like th' rest of us!

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The only reasonable explanation to me is that there are many more UB monsters than there are classes. That is monsters that either UB or require some sort of UB.

I would think it is being worked on currently? Probably not though.

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Is no-one else concerned about this? Or is too many people stuck in kolosium instead of pvm?

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We are not that much concerned because Monsters used to unbewitch fully pre Update and do the same post Update.
Nothing has changed fighting these monsters.

Do you really cry about Monsters being not nerfed? They are dumb enough as it is and pvm is easy enough too

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Chrolo|2012-01-11 14:41:26
We are not that much concerned because Monsters used to unbewitch fully pre Update and do the same post Update.
Nothing has changed fighting these monsters.

Do you really cry about Monsters being not nerfed? They are dumb enough as it is and pvm is easy enough too


I think it should be one rule for ALL, not one for one and another for another. Yes these unbewitchments of monsters affect certain classes more eg: sacs, masks, feccas, anyone who relies heavily on their buffs. Yes it was fair before the nerf as we had characters that could do the same. Now we don't and the monsters should be modified accordingly. Ankama says the unbewitchment was changed for a more tactical battle and play style...... well pvm unbewitchment is not tactical nor fun, it comes off as cheap.

I am not crying about it, I am debating a valid concern. Have you tried Tot or ougaaa recently? How far through frigost part two are you again? Certain spells and durations need to be modified to balance this change out. Monsters unbewitchments need to be changed to the new rules of unbewitchment to make the pvm fights "More tactical" like the reason they changed the spells for pvp. Whats tactical about using your spells to have them all removed by a monster mmmm? Same complaint that got the spells on characters that unbewitch changed and over nerfed.
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You know almost all buffs in frigost 2 last like 1 turn and your enu and panda can take it off 100% of the time now. There are some exceptions like the vit buff you buffed the bestial brocks already or the luck spell of soryo snowfouxes and the vit buff that comes with the sacrifice spell of those mellifluous bears, but thats not the point. Most monster buffs last only 1 turn in Frigost 2 and they cant even unbewitch you. I dont see your problem here.

You can turn Ougaas Hallucination buff off with an Enu or Panda now without fearing that it might fail and heals fully... and yet there is none of them who can unbewitch you again.

Yes Tot might have a long lasting ap buff and a longer than 1 turn lasting mp buff, but does that matter? Even if monsters get -turn unbewitchments now, it wont change the Tot fight, since they cant unbewitch.

Only real high level unbewitch monster i can think of are those Kwismas island mobs

Edit: I could care less if they can or cannot fully unbewitch us. Its just Monsters with unbewitch are already pretty weak and just leave them their little annoyance they have.

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Chrolo|2012-01-11 15:28:12
You know almost all buffs in frigost 2 last like 1 turn and your enu and panda can take it off 100% of the time now. There are some exceptions like the vit buff you buffed the bestial brocks already or the luck spell of soryo snowfouxes and the vit buff that comes with the sacrifice spell of those mellifluous bears, but thats not the point. Most monster buffs last only 1 turn in Frigost 2 and they cant even unbewitch you. I dont see your problem here.

You can turn Ougaas Hallucination buff off with an Enu or Panda now without fearing that it might fail and heals fully... and yet there is none of them who can unbewitch you again.

Yes Tot might have a long lasting ap buff and a longer than 1 turn lasting mp buff, but does that matter? Even if monsters get -turn unbewitchments now, it wont change the Tot fight, since they cant unbewitch.

Only real high level unbewitch monster i can think of are those Kwismas island mobs

Edit: I could care less if they can or cannot fully unbewitch us. Its just Monsters with unbewitch are already pretty weak and just leave them their little annoyance they have.


Tot's kitos, NUFF SAID. There are many other spells like this. Treechnees in SO can be detrimental to certain classes. ect ect. there are many spells, to many to list that are effected by this unbewitchment change. Picking and choosing the ones that strengthen your debate and ignoring the others dosn't make for a strong debate on your side. It's more than just the unbewitching monsters that need to be changed accordingly. But changing monster unbewitch spells would be a start. Having two seperate rules for monsters and players is one thing. If this is the case why not as many sugested have pvp and pvm effects for spells. Least if ankama are going to tell us something will never happen (pvp/pvm effects on spells, never going to happen according to dev's) then at least make it consistant with the rules given us in spell effects for players. ONE RULE FOR ALL.
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AngryBeardIvI|2012-01-11 15:38:50
Chrolo|2012-01-11 15:28:12
You know almost all buffs in frigost 2 last like 1 turn and your enu and panda can take it off 100% of the time now. There are some exceptions like the vit buff you buffed the bestial brocks already or the luck spell of soryo snowfouxes and the vit buff that comes with the sacrifice spell of those mellifluous bears, but thats not the point. Most monster buffs last only 1 turn in Frigost 2 and they cant even unbewitch you. I dont see your problem here.

You can turn Ougaas Hallucination buff off with an Enu or Panda now without fearing that it might fail and heals fully... and yet there is none of them who can unbewitch you again.

Yes Tot might have a long lasting ap buff and a longer than 1 turn lasting mp buff, but does that matter? Even if monsters get -turn unbewitchments now, it wont change the Tot fight, since they cant unbewitch.

Only real high level unbewitch monster i can think of are those Kwismas island mobs

Edit: I could care less if they can or cannot fully unbewitch us. Its just Monsters with unbewitch are already pretty weak and just leave them their little annoyance they have.


Tot's kitos, NUFF SAID. There are many other spells like this. Treechnees in SO can be detrimental to certain classes. ect ect. there are many spells, to many to list that are effected by this unbewitchment change. Picking and choosing the ones that strengthen your debate and ignoring the others dosn't make for a strong debate on your side. It's more than just the unbewitching monsters that need to be changed accordingly. But changing monster unbewitch spells would be a start. Having two seperate rules for monsters and players is one thing. If this is the case why not as many sugested have pvp and pvm effects for spells. Least if ankama are going to tell us something will never happen (pvp/pvm effects on spells, never going to happen according to dev's) then at least make it consistant with the rules given us in spell effects for players. ONE RULE FOR ALL.

You asked me if i did Tot, ougaa or Frigost 2 lately and when i give you the examples from those fights you tell me i pick the spells?

Yes i forgot about Kitos, but just because that Minotot didnt cast it at all the last 5 or 6 fights i had.

And well i was just answering your questiong about why nobody else is concerned about this. I was just stating my point that it doesnt affect alot in the end, so ppl dont seem to be too interested in this.
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Chrolo|2012-01-11 15:52:07
AngryBeardIvI|2012-01-11 15:38:50
Chrolo|2012-01-11 15:28:12
You know almost all buffs in frigost 2 last like 1 turn and your enu and panda can take it off 100% of the time now. There are some exceptions like the vit buff you buffed the bestial brocks already or the luck spell of soryo snowfouxes and the vit buff that comes with the sacrifice spell of those mellifluous bears, but thats not the point. Most monster buffs last only 1 turn in Frigost 2 and they cant even unbewitch you. I dont see your problem here.

You can turn Ougaas Hallucination buff off with an Enu or Panda now without fearing that it might fail and heals fully... and yet there is none of them who can unbewitch you again.

Yes Tot might have a long lasting ap buff and a longer than 1 turn lasting mp buff, but does that matter? Even if monsters get -turn unbewitchments now, it wont change the Tot fight, since they cant unbewitch.

Only real high level unbewitch monster i can think of are those Kwismas island mobs

Edit: I could care less if they can or cannot fully unbewitch us. Its just Monsters with unbewitch are already pretty weak and just leave them their little annoyance they have.


Tot's kitos, NUFF SAID. There are many other spells like this. Treechnees in SO can be detrimental to certain classes. ect ect. there are many spells, to many to list that are effected by this unbewitchment change. Picking and choosing the ones that strengthen your debate and ignoring the others dosn't make for a strong debate on your side. It's more than just the unbewitching monsters that need to be changed accordingly. But changing monster unbewitch spells would be a start. Having two seperate rules for monsters and players is one thing. If this is the case why not as many sugested have pvp and pvm effects for spells. Least if ankama are going to tell us something will never happen (pvp/pvm effects on spells, never going to happen according to dev's) then at least make it consistant with the rules given us in spell effects for players. ONE RULE FOR ALL.

You asked me if i did Tot, ougaa or Frigost 2 lately and when i give you the examples from those fights you tell me i pick the spells?

Yes i forgot about Kitos, but just because that Minotot didnt cast it at all the last 5 or 6 fights i had.

And well i was just answering your questiong about why nobody else is concerned about this. I was just stating my point that it doesnt affect alot in the end, so ppl dont seem to be too interested in this.


Funny thing is I just checked your character page and you haven't done Tot or ougaad since the nerf to unbewitchment of characters acording to your character activity. Just wondering when these 5-6 fights v tot where? A few CB's the odd kollosso and a lot of whumpa, but no tot or ougaad. So I am having a hard time believing your above statements.
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I didnt say when i did them in the last 10 days huh?

Since Monster AI didnt change i assume their behaviour is still the same. I'm playing this game long enough to have a clue about monsters. Or am i not right about the Hallucination buff? Do i actually have to do Ougaa within the last 10 days to prove my point?

Yes the tot fight is about 2 months back, but what does it change?
They still wont unbewitch you and he probably still wont spam Kitos. There was the time when he was spamming Kitos, but it got changed a while back since i dont see any nerf Minotot/Kitos threads anywhere i assume he still rarely cast it now.
Prove me wrong.

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Chrolo|2012-01-11 17:11:09
I didnt say when i did them in the last 10 days huh?

Since Monster AI didnt change i assume their behaviour is still the same. I'm playing this game long enough to have a clue about monsters. Or am i not right about the Hallucination buff? Do i actually have to do Ougaa within the last 10 days to prove my point?

Yes the tot fight is about 2 months back, but what does it change?
They still wont unbewitch you and he probably still wont spam Kitos. There was the time when he was spamming Kitos, but it got changed a while back since i dont see any nerf Minotot/Kitos threads anywhere i assume he still rarely cast it now.
Prove me wrong.


Go try it and see, though I will sugest this too you. Take a rougue of decent level or 2 x sadis or you will die! Pluss you don't see any threads about it since the unbewitch nerf as everyone has been grinding kwistmas island and some trying for the max petsmount over the last month. Yourself included looking at your activity. Still waiting for the penny to drop for a lot of people. These threads will come when people come back to the ordinary grind once kwistmas island is over. Like I said when you change unbewitchment spells on players, its not just about monster unbewitchment spells, its about other spell effects too.

However I am sure the kolosium results as always will bring more nerfs. The thing that baffles my brain is the last update was ment to be balancing and as far as I've seen all it did was overpower certain classes and make pvm more frustraiting. Personaly, to give you some perspective I welcomed the unbewitch change, HOWEVER, the lack of monster unbewitch being changed and certain spells left as they are in this new system is unacceptable and needs to be balanced accordingly. I know the devs want this to be a pvp game, but Pvm is in need of much ajusting now. As is the way of radical changes. Shame the unbewitchment spells where overnerfed. ALL comunitys asked for an extra turn of unbewitchment on the crit of stain and ghosty shovel. This was justified in testing but didn't happen. Know what it says to me watching the kolo fights I have been in. It just means the next character cycle will hit shields on classes, prev / toad / fecca shields ect, masks vit stacks and so on. Thanks to most unbewitchers not being able to crack armour spells bar the rougue or sadi. Osa maybe but we all know whym has retarded AI. So I want to make it known, I see shield spell nerfs in the future thanks to this character balancing. Thats my prediction.

As for the op classes blitzing Kolosium, thats a good thing. As it will bring ajustment. We all know how ankama likes to balance classes these days. So those that excell at Kolo' NOW will inevitably get nerfed.
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I have to side with the "they completely unbewitched pre and post update, what's the big deal" argument. Everyone's used to that happening by now. Sure, they *could* be nice and update their unbewitches to take away 2 or 3 turns from our buffs.

Oh wait, our buffs hardly last longer than 4 turns anyway.
Powerful Shooting: 2 turns
Critical Shooting: 3 turns
Distant Shooting: 3 turns
High Energy Shot/Osa Buffs in general: 2 turns
The Drunk spells are states, so who cares. (I'm not 100% familiar with the Panda mechanics, but the bonuses that come with those spells last no more than 4-5 turns.)
Smell: 3-4 turns
Punishments: 5 turns

If, say, monsters that can completely unbewitch are changed to take 2 turns off of buffs, some would be gone entirely anyway, others would be left with like 1 or 2 turns left. It's basically the same darn thing. The only class I can see that would even receive a change would be Sacriers.

Your suggested change is a plain as day buff to Sacriers, to make them better than all the other classes because their buffs can't just be neutralized like everyone else's. I don't think that's right at all. Sacriers are already invaluable in both Kolo *and* PvM, and there's no need to make them even stronger. Rather, they should change to the new system AND make Sacrier punishment bonuses last 3 or 4 turns.

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InuzukaKiba|2012-01-11 18:43:55
I have to side with the "they completely unbewitched pre and post update, what's the big deal" argument. Everyone's used to that happening by now. Sure, they *could* be nice and update their unbewitches to take away 2 or 3 turns from our buffs.

Oh wait, our buffs hardly last longer than 4 turns anyway.
Powerful Shooting: 2 turns
Critical Shooting: 3 turns
Distant Shooting: 3 turns
High Energy Shot/Osa Buffs in general: 2 turns
The Drunk spells are states, so who cares. (I'm not 100% familiar with the Panda mechanics, but the bonuses that come with those spells last no more than 4-5 turns.)
Smell: 3-4 turns
Punishments: 5 turns

If, say, monsters that can completely unbewitch are changed to take 2 turns off of buffs, some would be gone entirely anyway, others would be left with like 1 or 2 turns left. It's basically the same darn thing. The only class I can see that would even receive a change would be Sacriers.

Your suggested change is a plain as day buff to Sacriers, to make them better than all the other classes because their buffs can't just be neutralized like everyone else's. I don't think that's right at all. Sacriers are already invaluable in both Kolo *and* PvM, and there's no need to make them even stronger. Rather, they should change to the new system AND make Sacrier punishment bonuses last 3 or 4 turns.


Nice try with the "ZOMG this benifits your class", well I will tell you something, it benifits feccas, masks, all classes that use a weapon skill ect. Its easy to point a finger at me 'cos i use a long duration buff character, you know like feccas and try and twist my words. But meh Yeah I bet you play a cra or some fast duration character so monster unbewitchers don't bother you..... same sort of aguement. As for the main three classes I have mentioned yes, sacs, feccas, and masks get heavyily effected by unbewitching monsters.

As for your sugestions on punishments, mmm 3 - 4 turns. Naaa they have screwed sacs enough without hitting us in the last solid tactic for us.... buff and hit. Even if they did change the monster unbewitch (whitch in my opinion should happen) It will make us no differant than in kolo for a sac. But everyone on these forums who gives a damn knows my opinions on the pointless sac support spell nerfs. If we want to start pointing fingers at the sac, lets turn it round. A fecca who can't be unbewitched in PVP will be way more valuable than a sac will ever be. You know because the feccas shields last for the same duration as sac stat punishments

InuzukaKiba|2012-01-11 18:43:55
to make them better than all the other classes because their buffs can't just be neutralized like everyone else's.


As for a fecca combined with a mask, then you have trouble as you cant get rid of the vit stack/shields fast enough before reaplication. Same with short duration buffs. But this isnt about pvp, this is about.....

PVM

Where it counts more and you have a bigger chance of failure due to unbewitchers. But if we must coment about pvp lets take critical shooting for example v ghostly, you know average duration spell three rounds you will always get two turns out of it even if the enu unbewitches every turn. The turn you cast it and the turn after. As for shields and vit stacks of the mask and fecca well big buff don't you think? But I digress.....

V character unbewitchment its more about the other spell effects of certain bosses that needs to be modified accoding to the unbewitchment change to character spells. Yeah so easy to point the finger to try and discredit my points (reminds me very much of american election adverts for the running parties). Point being it comes down to this......

Ankama says: PvP and PVM spells shall have no differing effects. They will be the same for pvp and pvm. (This I am paraphrasing, but stated by mods and devs when faced with the idea of pvm and pvp effects added to spells to please both sides of the fence)

All I want is for this to truely be the case in regards to pvm, whitch as it stands is not the case!

NUFF SAID.
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i would side with angry on this. when i saw that monsters still ub complete i was feeling the same thing. i mean its only fair that they also get to reduce buff duration than totally remove it. moreover its annoying. i mean my summons can have the buffs for very long meaning they can do something. now that buffs dont stack , and making my tank summon totally vulnerable once unbewitched it kinda sucks.

and meh about kolo, its jst a giant cc and sheild fest. more on the cc fest and bit less on sheild fest. u know whats gonna happen there. the character ll come up to u and ull get cced for some damage that ll kill u in that same turn. done biggrin

today only i was doing obsidemon and second last room was tougher than boss room. reason , we cant ub those steams anymore. same with tot, i havnt done it recently coz i know very few sadis, my wyrm is a moron, enus wont work and the buffs of tot is painful.

and yeah the ai of summons are crappy. totally worthless. i mean why the hell would my summons leave the opponent summoner to chase his summons. they are jst lil hp sacks completely robbed of anything related to intelligence or "brains". but one thing is for sure, now the leash suits its name. they do enter zombie state , after all they do act jst like zombies............"brains.....zombie bash ur brain , zombie eat ur brain....". meh they cant even speak.

overall all the recent changes only made pvm more difficult. rather i would say this is a cc fest game atm. mobs = cc them, players = cc them. not to mention the mobs got insane hp , so cc is the only option i believe. whatever... i play this game jst coz i love it.

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Well if you dont play a masq dont bother bringing they up, because all their spells last like 2-3 turns

But anyway, got nothing to add here as i told you why most ppl dont care about this. I'll reply back when i did Minotot again

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Chrolo|2012-01-11 20:00:51
Well if you dont play a masq dont bother bringing they up, because all their spells last like 2-3 turns

But anyway, got nothing to add here as i told you why most ppl dont care about this. I'll reply back when i did Minotot again


I do play a mask, I post as a sac as its the rules of the forum to post under the same account. His name is killer-clown, he is epic level, check the rushu ladder if you want. I play a full team acctualy. But like I said mask + fecca + dmg dealer = win in pvp. I'm sure the pvp kolo' stats will cause nerfs accordingly.

To be fair to the osa above I hadn't even thought about the pvm monster unbewitch to summons but yet again another corse for concern v monster unbewitch. All valid concerns stated in this thread in relation to the fun of the pvm grind.

If pvp is not ment to effect pvm then the monsters unbewitch spells and some boss spells must be modified accordingly.
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Is this concern of utmost importance to divert the dev team from their schedules? Exactly how many monsters need to be balanced in the whole game? 30+ types of monsters?

If players can survive the "monsters UB" before the UB update then they can survive now. Why even bother wasting the devs time changing what was not broken before?

Is it necessary to weaken monsters? Do we really want an easier PVM game?

RP? It is easy to find an RP to support an absolute monster UB. For one thing since monster have 2-5 spells only we can RP that they have mastered their UB better that a class with 20+ spells. Think of their UB as reducing 10 duration because of their mastery. In real life, a person doing a specific task would be better at that task than those who do different task.

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Chrolo|2012-01-11 20:00:51
Well if you dont play a masq dont bother bringing they up, because all their spells last like 2-3 turns

But anyway, got nothing to add here as i told you why most ppl dont care about this. I'll reply back when i did Minotot again
I don't get why if you say you don't care and "most people don't care about this" either, why this thread is still carrying on? Just a thought.

Gunnerwolfang|2012-01-12 00:56:22
Is this concern of utmost importance to divert the dev team from their schedules? Exactly how many monsters need to be balanced in the whole game? 30+ types of monsters?

If players can survive the "monsters UB" before the UB update then they can survive now. Why even bother wasting the devs time changing what was not broken before?

Is it necessary to weaken monsters? Do we really want an easier PVM game?

RP? It is easy to find an RP to support an absolute monster UB. For one thing since monster have 2-5 spells only we can RP that they have mastered their UB better that a class with 20+ spells. Think of their UB as reducing 10 duration because of their mastery. In real life, a person doing a specific task would be better at that task than those who do different task.

Uh... Dofus is a game which the Developer's manage as per their job. Of course, I am not implying they cannot take breaks, enjoy life apart from Dofus, etc. but much of their time is spent on matters within Dofus at large anyhow. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply there especially because this is just a suggestion, not a priority in the least anyway.

That said, I do not think it is entirely fair especially if the Devs do imply synchronicity/uniformity between classes and monsters. It's not truly about "ease" but in all honesty if, say, Panda uses Stain and has to wait for a cool down for a spell which a monster casts that lasts 8 turns, that -1 and 6 CD makes the UB aspect of Panda pretty useless. Even with Insolent, the max it takes away is 4, I believe. While that is a sizeable chunk, it suffers from a CD itself. I actually like the randomness of Stain. It made it particularly interesting. Now it's slapped with a CD and only takes away -1. That's silly.

Solution? Raise the reduce turn rate for all the spells, especially by Lv. 6. -1 for Stain, at least, is pretty useless. There are few spells out there that would require a 1 Rng UB spell of -1 from Stain. This update needs to be fixed.
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Gunnerwolfang|2012-01-12 00:56:22
Is this concern of utmost importance to divert the dev team from their schedules? Exactly how many monsters need to be balanced in the whole game? 30+ types of monsters?

If players can survive the "monsters UB" before the UB update then they can survive now. Why even bother wasting the devs time changing what was not broken before?

Is it necessary to weaken monsters? Do we really want an easier PVM game?

RP? It is easy to find an RP to support an absolute monster UB. For one thing since monster have 2-5 spells only we can RP that they have mastered their UB better that a class with 20+ spells. Think of their UB as reducing 10 duration because of their mastery. In real life, a person doing a specific task would be better at that task than those who do different task.
first it should be of utmost concern to the developers.Players have been suggesting different spell effects for PvM and PvP for awhile for a reason.It use to be that player spells were balanced for monsters in game then starting with 1.27 the developers started changing weakening player spells to "balance" PvP guess what weakening player spells without changing monsters spells.resistance,hit points etc means more frustrating PvM.

The developers have a simple choice either different spell effects for PvM and PvP or go through and "balance" all monsters in game when they "balance" player spells for PvP.

It wasn't broken until the developers broke it for the sake of PvP.

Not easier PvM just less frustrating and more fun.
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