By continuing to browse this website or by clicking on the X, you consent to the use of cookies that enable us to collect site-visit statistics and offer you videos, share buttons, personalized ads, and a chat feature. Learn more and set cookie preferences X

FR EN DE ES IT PT
Browse forums 
Ankama Trackers

Capping and leeching

By spaderocksspade - SUBSCRIBER - November 30, 2013, 08:36:34

Punishment for taking a mob higher than you? This is a fight that will most likely take longer, and be more difficult. Overcapping makes sense, if you're higher than a mob an EXP penalty sure thing but undercapping does not. I think it is just nonsense to pick up a leecher just to fill a cap. The punishment for taking on a greater challenge should at least be 0 instead of in some cases -200 based on levels.

Also speaking of leeching, Dofus is a stunning game with the best base game idea I've seen, and leeching is a plague on that game. The question that addresses leeching best is Why does it exist? It is hard to pinpoint just one reason, but this is one of the ways I explain it. Dofus is a game where the lower levels are the worst to get. This game contains 30(There is actually more than 30) level "60" or below areas with each spawning a mob of 5-8 monsters(average). Every place in this game requires a team for the best amount of experience. I've issues with this, as I really enjoy being on a team, but leveling at the low levels? Forget it after 50 go to frigost, before frigost it was cani leechers. This game hardly feels like you want the first 1-150 levels "fairly" in fact I know of several first time players skipping all the way to 190. Leeching is too rewarding, while grinding those first 1-100 levels is not fast enough solo. Lets get back to what I was explaining first, me finally getting my 199, then finding getting a group is impossible(In many cases). The fact is a majority of the people I found either don't understand how a dungeon works, and get killed, or I can't find a properly leveled group or they get bored and leave. So I'm a 199 stuck killing monsters barely finding a group. What is my option? Leech a character to 199 to help. So here comes my first alt a level 199 Eni. Well then I find nobody wants my panda in a group so I leech up a 195 sac, and 199 Feca, and while I'm at it why not a 189 cra. Oh and just for the fun of it a 194 enu. Then I've one friend that is fully capable of doing a dungeon and he has two chars. a 200 enu and a 199 Iop. Let me ask you how did he get that 199 Iop? It was leeched. All of these characters leeched. Now with many people having a like mind as I do and just making more characters until they've enough to handle doing every dungeon without having to rely on /r where even with my team can't find a single person to join at brockhards, or petrified forest. Then guilds come into play, oh wait no they don't, I may do a hunt with a guild member every month or so, and that guild member usually has as many chars as I do and just wants to play a smaller amount for a day or so. So is multi logging the issue? Why no it isn't. Multi logging is not an issue. it is that the real community of 190+ tends to be people that have more than one character. It isn't normal that you see a level 199 without some form of alt. I KNOW there are people that did it. Blazeros went from 1-200 without an alt, and wasn't until frigost he finally gave in. So where does that put us? You have a large amount of level 199's but a majority being multi's. I'm sure many will disagree, but I feel this is largely caused to the grind of 1-199. Go make a new character level it from 1-199(or 200) without a team without going pure wisdom. It takes too much time. I can't give an exact comparison for these days, but in the old days it took people two to three years to achieve this goal. I don't necessarily think it is bad that Experience has progressed to the point of today, but I do find this leeching to be a major issue. This should be solved by using the wisdom stat for something else and taking away the experience boost from it and giving a flat rate. I also don't believe 1-199 should be nearly as hard as it used to be because this games core players are already used to seeing 41m EXP from certain fights. A few more things to comment on
Re scaling enemy levels go look at your map sometime and take a gander at all of the level 100+ sets of monsters there are. Not even 1/3 of what level 60 and below. Re scaling is another issue for another time, however.

Click here 800 wisdom x4 EXP

Even with that EXP it is 22m without the double EXP weekend. While it is "Fun" to see that amount of experience leeching shouldn't be the only way of getting it.

Please Ankama bring back the fun in the lower levels.

2 0
Reply
Reactions 29
Score : 1762

I believe that the problem with leeching is far more complex and is very difficult, if not impossible, to balance. I'll list the reasons below.

1) Players cherry pick which content they like to play
While playing some classes at low level is fun and unique, most of us have done it over and over and over again and would like to skip that part if possible. Exp multiplier helps with that a lot, but not as much as wisdom equipment. However, if you put on infamous prespic set to help you level up faster, you are basically fighting monster without any equipment and have to rely on your base stats (which again, are often just wisdom). You can't win against monsters your level if you're playing solo in a prespic set, simple as that. To fix this, wisdom stat would have to change comepletely. I always felt being enslaved by it in a way, and even after lvl 150, when almost every equipment gives some wisdom (thank god for that), this cawwot thingy is just too good to pass on.

2) Players create alts with a specific role/goal in mind
You're drooling over pushback build? You know it's gonna suck unless you're 150. You want to create a range support, let's say, an int Panda? It'd be really useful after obtaining one of those powerful healing weapons and some decent AP. Same goes to many, many classes, non-standard builds in particular. Killer caps that many classes suffer from does not help with this.

3) People are lazy

4) Investing in wisdom set will be far, far less expensive than investing in decent equipment throughout low-mid leves and can be used by every character

To sum up, as it is now, only if you're starting your adventure with Dofus and you have your first character you are likely to use equipment which actually boosts your fighting power. And hey, I'm also a part of the problem, although I'm a single accounter, I created an int sram, which is very, very weak until he gets dragline, before I wanted to make int enu which has the same problem, so the best course of action in both cases was for me to ask my friends to help me level. And since level 80 is so close to feudala set, I might just ask them to level me a bit more, so that I could equip it. And since I'm pretty poor and this goes pretty well, I might as well ask them to get me to that soft oak set.

Removing wisdom's effect on gained exp would probably be the best course of action here, although many would still leech, they wouldn't be deprived of the possibility to level alone, which is how things are right now.

By the way, anyone else encountered people that are 170+ in kolo, have incredible stats and equipment, but have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to play their class? This has given me a few good laughs and a few bad cringes.

0 0
Reply
Score : 15611

With regard to the "under cap" mechanism I think this is a good thing. I mean my team of four only has a 798 cap but we can often easily kill mobs in the 1200 range. By reducing the exp we get from these mobs it prevents me from just selfishly going out there and killing all the nice high star mobs I see. Instead I'll ask on alliance chat or guild chat if anyone wants to join me because I'm motivated to bring people along to fill the cap. In this way I'm "forced" to interact with other people. tongue

With regard to the role of wisdom in increasing experience I'm of two minds. On the one hand I'd love to see experience rate tied more closely to something like level and achievement points instead of level and wisdom. But on the other hand I like that I can leech a new char up to 190 in a few weeks and would hate having to go get achievements on it just to level it up fast.

0 0
Reply
Score : 4379

I can understand that players want to be able to level up faster so they can enjoy high level content. But low level content needs to have its place, and low level players should have incentives to fight low level monsters without leeching. Otherwise, why don't we just start everyone at level 200 and get rid of all the low level content?

Players should have the freedom to leech or not leech, but I think currently the leeching mentality is so dominant that it makes it difficult to not leech. A new player has trouble finding groups, because most other low level players are leeching, and there are few other low level players in the first place because most people leech through their low levels so quickly.

It may be true that when you invite a leecher in your group, you are socializing with them. But if that low level player were in group with other low level players, their socialization would be more fun and meaningful. They would be more likely to become friends who play together through their Dofus career, instead of someone who messages you to leech them again after a few days, and gets ignored.

1 0
Reply
Score : 1762

I really like the idea of tying gained experience bonus to achievements. Achievement points are greatly underapreciated in general, I think. However, I believe that the experience bonus could also be linked to achievement points the other characters on the same account have. This way, every effort you make on any of your characters would impact the rate your other characters progress and along with the experience boost you get for having a character on higher level. Leeching would still be a viable option, but it would be much slower in most (but not all) cases and there would be a point of having more than one pre-lvl 100 set in bank.

To sum up this would:
- Make it worthwhile to do all sorts of achievements on all characters
- Make it worthwhile for low-mid level players to have equipment that provides them with actually useful stats
- Limit (but not kill) leeching
- Lower the chance of encountering high level character who has no idea how to play his class (even if you are leeched, but have decent stats, you're likely to try and help sometimes and learn about your own spells, instead of just pressing F1)
- Make low-level market more lively
- Open up path for boosting wisdom as a stat, making it true domain of disablers (maybe make it also affect other debuffs than ap&mp steal, thus creating some interesting builds, like wis iop?)

0 0
Reply
Score : 15611

Many people who want to multiaccount start their alt character on a new account so that new character wouldn't benefit from all the thousands of achievement points that the main character has. That's what I mean by not wanting to go do achievements on a new character in order to level him.

But other than that issue I agree that tying experience gain to achievement points would be a great way to do it. Heading straight to Frigost to leech would no longer be the most effective way to level because it would be like you have no wisdom at all. Instead new characters would have to explore the world and do different things to build up achievement points until they reached a decent level at which point it would be as if they had nice wisdom.

0 0
Reply
Score : 63

Soloability is the problem in dofus. Dofus from what level 20 expects you to have a group? It doesn't take account to talent and a system to measure this (kolo) would just not work. I like logging multiple characters it keeps me busy, I'm a multi logger myself 199, 199, 199, 195, 195, 185. Only one of these were not leeched to 199. Now I agree a player that wants to be able to do these dungeons without having to find a group would just make more than one character. I still feel that leeching is a problem. I don't feel dofus should take 3 years to level fairly as a solo character, but I still don't feel that leeching is a solution for wanting to have an ALT. In fact I think me leveling my sram to 1-185 in three days is even too fast for a leecher. There is no competition with leeching. "The fun of playing the game" doesn't work either. I agree wisdom can't just be removed willy nilly, and as ridiculous as it sounds the process to these higher levels would need to be sped up, but people want to skip this anyway so what does that matter? People playing this game for the first time tend to not actually level their characters. It isn't just us with our first 199 doing it. Now comparing this game to "When I started" is just silly, but I'll do it. When I started this game I remember seeing my first level 100, this wasn't a common find, and I thought the highest level was 101. Clearly the game was newer, so this was normal then. Now a level 100 is counted as apprentice ? Go level 1-100 solo without wisdom the amount of experience gained doesn't even closely match what you can get. It is like when they nerfed Gobball dungeon. I spent 1-100 there on my panda, now a level 100 can get more EXP as full wisdom than a level 199 pure stat. I'm not going to sit here and say I don't want to be able to level up my alts, I hate finding random groups. I even took my sram to Kolosso during double EXP and he ended up with 43 Million before challenges. It is already faster to level someone from 1-199 with just using base stats after you've a founded team... However, 43 MILLION?... Even though this was during double EXP, that is still a 21m EXP base. It is 100m for level 100, (Or so).
Click here

I don't expect solo to be fixed, but wow this type of leeching. The reason people don't want to level a new character is because it sucks. If it didn't suck so terribly people wouldn't mind doing it. But the options are 10 Minute fight for 200,000 EXP or 10 Minute fight for 10-16m(mobs). Over the double EXP weekend there was someone that did 1-200. That is in THREE days.

I also feel that stars are a pointless feature. Here have an extra 200% on your supposed to be undesirable mob... Stars were supposed to make areas have better feeling experience that people didn't visit. Instead it feels more like a requirement to kill something with stars. I rarely will kill any mobs that don't have at least a star. Brockhards, Frigost 3, wherever. Take away these stars and farmed drops would be worth more as less people would kill it. Instead 200% EXP + Drops + Alliance owning territory 25% + challenges. Lol what?

Also in response to the "you will ask an alliance member" I would say a majority of the time I just log another alt to fill caps. Trying to rely on these foolish people is just not fun.

0 0
Reply
Score : 320

Multi-accounting and leeching go hand in hand.

The more people MA, the more leechers there will be.
The less people MA, the more normal players there will be.

0 0
Reply
Score : 6154
7Benj|2013-12-05 19:23:00
Multi-accounting and leeching go hand in hand.

The more people MA, the more leechers there will be.
The less people MA, the more normal players there will be.
a sad side effect to less people MA is dofus will lose a hell of a lot of money. I don't care what the flawed statistics they once published say, at the very least, half of active accounts are alts. the very least.
0 0
Reply
Score : 9382
n0ak|2013-11-30 10:42:49
I believe that the problem with leeching is far more complex and is very difficult, if not impossible, to balance. I'll list the reasons below.

1) Players cherry pick which content they like to play


This is a direct consequence of the entire leeching problem. Look at all this content that low level characters have available to them, they can hardly decide what to ignore first and go leeching at Frigost instead. Why go do a dungeon for your level where you actually have to work for your drops and xp and might even die a few times when you can just as well slap on a prespic set and get 10 times the xp per time for leeching off a group of strangers that ACTUALLY NEEDS YOU because the current, ridiculous system would otherwise penalize them for being undercapped?

Yes, players cherry pick their content. Leeching at Frigost is the sweet, good cherries lying in a basket in the living room. Actual low level content/dungeons is the small, sour wild cherries growing on a cherry tree on top of a mountain that is otherwise full of woods with lots of stinging nettles and starving packs of wolves.

While playing some classes at low level is fun and unique, most of us have done it over and over and over again and would like to skip that part if possible. Exp multiplier helps with that a lot, but not as much as wisdom equipment. However, if you put on infamous prespic set to help you level up faster, you are basically fighting monster without any equipment and have to rely on your base stats (which again, are often just wisdom). You can't win against monsters your level if you're playing solo in a prespic set, simple as that.


I'm not going to elaborate on those multipliers as i think they are good ideas for the most part. But yes, wisdom boosting xp is the number one reason why leeching exists and is such a huge problem. The very idea of having a stat that does almost nothing other that increasing the rewards for your battle is outright ridiculous. You’re basically telling people they should deliberately make their characters as useless as possible. The reward in having good stats should be being more powerful and thus being able to fight harder monster and thus getting more drops and xp. This is why wisdom in this game is a piss poor concept that should have been fixed 5 years ago, sometimes i'm astonished that nothing has ever been done about it.

When version 1.20 introduced characteristic resets, Ankama told us there would be measures that prevent people from just leeching a wis char to level 19x and then resetting to a proper build... yeah, we all know how that turned out.

To fix this, wisdom stat would have to change comepletely. I always felt being enslaved by it in a way, and even after lvl 150, when almost every equipment gives some wisdom (thank god for that), this cawwot thingy is just too good to pass on.


I always thought it was funny how other than vitality, there are 5 base stats (str/int/chance/agi/wis) that boost 5 elements (neutral/earth/fire/water/air), but for some reason, str boost 2 elements while wisdom boosts none, and instead it got that ridiculous xp boosting function. What happened here, Ankama?

If i'm not terribly mistaken you also have your ideas for how to give wisdom a different job. But i'm getting off-topic here. I think we can all agree on that wisdom boosting xp is nothing other than abusive and has to go away.

2) Players create alts with a specific role/goal in mind
You're drooling over pushback build? You know it's gonna suck unless you're 150. You want to create a range support, let's say, an int Panda? It'd be really useful after obtaining one of those powerful healing weapons and some decent AP. Same goes to many, many classes, non-standard builds in particular. Killer caps that many classes suffer from does not help with this.


From my personal experience, this holds true especially in Frigost 3 where the dungeons are built against certain classes more blatantly than ever before. What, you want to take a Sacrier to Freezz? Have fun with that. Better just start a new char on the same account and leech them up to level 190, in three days you'll be done and have a character that's not actually a dead weight. it's no wonder that people have to leech up their alts over and over again when they try to do a new dungeon and half their classes are dead weights in this dungeon.

However, that's not related to the original complaint about punishments for being undercapped (not that it would be possible to reach any cap at Frigost 3). The sad truth is that this game actively encourages the entire leeching system on both sides: the leecher needs the leech to get the caps and the leech needs leeching to make 20 times as much progress as they would make at content that is actually intended for their level range.

3) People are lazy


No, they just aren't stupid enough to work hard for little reward when you can just as well leech and get ten times the xp for joining a fight and die in the first turn. This isn't a question of what reward you're willing to work for, it's the exact same reward for an easy and a much harder way.

4) Investing in wisdom set will be far, far less expensive than investing in decent equipment throughout low-mid leves and can be used by every character


This is going to be even worse from now on, Ankama is planning to litter pebbles on ALL Frigost recipes now. Affordable Mastogob/Pingwin set that everyone can use? Nope!
*rolls eyes*
Oh Ankama.

To sum up, as it is now, only if you're starting your adventure with Dofus and you have your first character you are likely to use equipment which actually boosts your fighting power. And hey, I'm also a part of the problem, although I'm a single accounter, I created an int sram, which is very, very weak until he gets dragline, before I wanted to make int enu which has the same problem, so the best course of action in both cases was for me to ask my friends to help me level. And since level 80 is so close to feudala set, I might just ask them to level me a bit more, so that I could equip it. And since I'm pretty poor and this goes pretty well, I might as well ask them to get me to that soft oak set.


I don't blame you. You only did what was the most efficient use of your time. It's not your fault the system sucks. There’s the saying „Blame the game, not the player“. I went from level 1 to 200 without an alt and have NEVER leeched this char, ever. Basically, i was the person that was always broke and never went to any dungeons while everyone else was leeching and multiaccounting until the cows come home. But that's probably the most important thing i learned in my years of playing this game: if something is broken, just abuse it as much as you can, you'll just miss out on the abuse otherwise. I regularly leech my / someone else's alts from level 1 to 19x within days, i got one huge hand-me-down set of wis equips that basically gives the character the best wis they could possibly have at any level barring ethereals and consumable boosts.

However, that doesn't mean that either of us is lazy and it also doesn't change anything about the fact that the current system is terribly broken.

By the way, anyone else encountered people that are 170+ in kolo, have incredible stats and equipment, but have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to play their class? This has given me a few good laughs and a few bad cringes.


Haha yeah, that reminds me of how when we reset a 3 day old level 19x alt and go "haha wow, 500 damage a hit? A few minutes ago this char couldn't hit three digit damage a turn if his life depended on it... man, i have no idea how to play this char aside from AP/MP ****ing!"

Just proves how horrible the wis system is.

Mishna|2013-11-30 22:24:19
With regard to the "under cap" mechanism I think this is a good thing. I mean my team of four only has a 798 cap but we can often easily kill mobs in the 1200 range. By reducing the exp we get from these mobs it prevents me from just selfishly going out there and killing all the nice high star mobs I see. Instead I'll ask on alliance chat or guild chat if anyone wants to join me because I'm motivated to bring people along to fill the cap. In this way I'm "forced" to interact with other people. tongue


I'm sorry, i completely disagree with you here. First of all, a level 798 team killing a level 1200 mob is a better accomplishment than the same team plus 402 extra levels worth of characters killing the same mob, so it's completely logical that they should get a BETTER reward for doing so rather than a WORSE one. At the very least make it so there's no penalty for being undercapped (which is what the OP was suggesting in the first place, looks like i finally got back on topic, lol!).

Now, it's up for debate whether a level 800 team killing a 1200 mob should get more xp than a level 1200 team killing a 1200 mob. While it seems logical, there's the danger of this over-encouraging being undercapped over being properly capped, which would raise multiple issues, mainly that the dungeon system matches your team size so this would be pretty stupid and again might encourage leeching (take a level 50 leech so the enemy team adds another level 210 monster). Obviously, this would be the exact opposite of how it is supposed to be.

You also mentioned "good mobs" and how killing them with too few characters should be discouraged, and how undercapping is supposed to do the job. This is a good point, however that is a completely different problem. The mere existence of "good mobs" is a problem. Shouldn't players have plenty of good mobs available so they can just hunt whenever and whatever they want without feeling that their xp is **** because no "good mobs" are around currently?

Most ironically, the very system that was made to solve the problem of "bad, unfavorable" mobs is causing this exact dynamic to happen. Stars should balance out the suckiness of bad mobs to make them as desirable as the "base line" of normal, proper, 0 star mobs. Instead, they accumulate way too fast (i blame server population as well as Ankama's constant increasing of the speed at which they accumulate). As a result, the "base line" is up to multiple stars in most Frigost 2/3 areas and mobs with lower stars just feel like crap compared to them. Because, as you observed, if you kill a 5 star mob, the respawn is a 0 star mob that just sucks until it has 5 stars.

The way to fix this would be to get rid of stars and just raise the baseline at those areas instead.

With regard to the role of wisdom in increasing experience I'm of two minds. On the one hand I'd love to see experience rate tied more closely to something like level and achievement points instead of level and wisdom. But on the other hand I like that I can leech a new char up to 190 in a few weeks and would hate having to go get achievements on it just to level it up fast.


Let me go on record saying that i love the cheevos. In fact, i made a very elaborate achievement suggestion with lots of shopped screenshots and concepts way before Ankama announced achievements... does anyone remember this? So basically, achievements in dofus were my idea. That said, i don't think it would be a good idea to tie xp gains to this. Now, people are compelled to slap a massive wis set on their alt and leech them up while they do 20 damage hit and are only really good at MP ***ing. If Achievements would increase xp, people would feel compelled to do those to get proper xp on their alts. Can you imagine this? "Man, i have to run everywhere with my level 30 alt to get achievement points so i can leech him quickly... ugh, does anyone have the mats to go to Otomai land? Damn, my alt hasn't got enough pods left for the cannon ball. Crap, i got aggroed by wabbits again, i almost reached the last island! Urgh!"

You'd basically have to play the game as intended, which sounds really great, but for an alt, not so much. I just did some low level Astrub quests on my enu. It kind of felt off to get belittled by NPCs in Astrub that give you 2000 xp and 100 kamas for talking to the Fisher so you can learn that fishing exists in this game. Imagine doing all of this mess all the time for all your alts. Well, i guess there will never be a 100% acceptable solution to this problem as this game actively encourages people to multi-account and leech up multiple characters on the same account even (Frigost 3 telling certain classes to GTFO and then offering double xp for leeching up a new character instead). But yeah, we can all agree on the fact that wisdom boosting xp is definitely not the right solution.

vagabaka|2013-12-01 10:30:50
I can understand that players want to be able to level up faster so they can enjoy high level content. But low level content needs to have its place, and low level players should have incentives to fight low level monsters without leeching. Otherwise, why don't we just start everyone at level 200 and get rid of all the low level content?


This is exactly why wis needs to change. To give low level content a meaning. Right now, the reality looks like this:

- level 50 players do level 190 content because they can leech massive amounts of xp
- level 190 players do level 50 content because they can efficiently farm recipes that crush into runes for post-Frigost bonuses

Isn't that just ridiculous? And this isn't just some exaggeration. I made around 70mk farming kwakwa (i'll have to look up the exact numbers, i make a lot of tables and statistics) and only very rarely did i see low level characters doing this dungeon. And this applies to every dungeon between level 20 and 100: most of the people doing it are playing 150+ chars that are either farming runes or just going for the cheevos.

Players should have the freedom to leech or not leech, but I think currently the leeching mentality is so dominant that it makes it difficult to not leech. A new player has trouble finding groups, because most other low level players are leeching, and there are few other low level players in the first place because most people leech through their low levels so quickly.

It may be true that when you invite a leecher in your group, you are socializing with them. But if that low level player were in group with other low level players, their socialization would be more fun and meaningful. They would be more likely to become friends who play together through their Dofus career, instead of someone who messages you to leech them again after a few days, and gets ignored.


That's precisely my experience playing Dofus, back then when everything was new and nobody knew what they were doing. It was awesome. Embarking on an adventure, discovering new stuff, exploring the world. Multis were a ridiculous idea back then and people weren't even sure if it was allowed.

Nowadays, that's all gone. You say you're not sure whether fixing wis will bring back a lot of this, but not fixing wis sure won't bring back anything.

7Benj|2013-12-05 19:23:00
Multi-accounting and leeching go hand in hand.

The more people MA, the more leechers there will be.
The less people MA, the more normal players there will be.


So, what is the point of your post exactly? Getting rid of multiaccounting and making the whole game so it can be efficiently played solo? I'd love this, but it's simply not going to happen. Multis are multiplying the money that Ankama makes. It will NEVER go away.
1 0
Reply
Score : 1762

Let me start of by saying that I absolutely love your response, Blazeron. You should speak more smile

There's not much to add or expand upon, except for one thing.

If Achievements would increase xp, people would feel compelled to do those to get proper xp on their alts. Can you imagine this? "Man, i have to run everywhere with my level 30 alt to get achievement points so i can leech him quickly... ugh, does anyone have the mats to go to Otomai land? Damn, my alt hasn't got enough pods left for the cannon ball. Crap, i got aggroed by wabbits again, i almost reached the last island! Urgh!" You'd basically have to play the game as intended, which sounds really great, but for an alt, not so much. I just did some low level Astrub quests on my enu. It kind of felt off to get belittled by NPCs in Astrub that give you 2000 xp and 100 kamas for talking to the Fisher so you can learn that fishing exists in this game. Imagine doing all of this mess all the time for all your alts. Well, i guess there will never be a 100% acceptable solution to this problem as this game actively encourages people to multi-account and leech up multiple characters on the same account even (Frigost 3 telling certain classes to GTFO and then offering double xp for leeching up a new character instead). But yeah, we can all agree on the fact that wisdom boosting xp is definitely not the right solution.

There is a thread created very recently about sharing achievements between characters, to make your proggress faster and, together with what you've written, it gave me an idea.

What if you could officially choose a big daddy in Dofus?

By this I mean your main character. Let's say that achievement points give a bonus to experience gain instead of wisdom, to every character on the account, based on the character with the most achievement points. That coupled with experience multiplier could really help other characters on the same account, without forcing them to do all the achievements.

An extension to this idea could also work for the multiaccounters: You can officially and permanently assign another character to be your 'main' and therefore benefit from the experience bonus his achievement points give (but only to this one character, not the whole account!). The procces, however would have been limited to linking only up to 7 accounts to a big daddy (or 3, depending on how useful the multimen will turn out to be). This way, multiaccounters would end up with several different accounts glued to them.

My intution suggests that something is wrong with the idea mentioned in the previous paragraph, but I can't put my finger on it. Here are however optional solutions that could possibly limit the system:
- It would cost ogrines to establish and maintain
- Big daddy would have to be online for you to use his achievement points

It will be hard to dig ourselves from that hole that wisdom has put us in...
0 0
Reply
Score : 2029

Yea I agree with Blazeron, there's really no reason for wisdom to exist. It doesn't add anything interesting to the gameplay at all, and in fact makes for some pretty obvious choices. I mean why wouldn't someone spend points on a stat that makes a character level so much faster, when you can always reset after?

I also agree they should remove the undercapping penalties. One of the main goals of any strategy game should be to produce interesting battles; as the system stands now, players are discouraged from challenging themselves with higher levels of difficulty.

1 0
Reply
Score : 1853

Undercapping penalties shouldn't just be removed but undercapping bonuses should be introduced.

Because then players would be less motivated to be wisdom-based. Example:

Level 100 wisdom character fighting level 100 monster is currently more experience than level 100 strength character fighting level 150 monster whereas both may be equally difficult.

With the introduction of undercapping bonuses, you'd be more motivated to go with a battle base/set so that you can fight higher level monsters and get the same (or more) experience as fighting easier monsters with more wisdom, all the while having more fun (more damage, more strategies, more challenges).

It would push players to find teams where they have synergy and can take on higher level mobs for more experience rather than just players of the same level who can produce fast fights for efficient experience/minute. (Iops be blitzing, yo!)

1 0
Reply
Score : 2029
LaughinGhost|2013-12-06 06:55:09
Undercapping penalties shouldn't just be removed but undercapping bonuses should be introduced.

Because then players would be less motivated to be wisdom-based. Example:

Level 100 wisdom character fighting level 100 monster is currently more experience than level 100 strength character fighting level 150 monster whereas both may be equally difficult.

With the introduction of undercapping bonuses, you'd be more motivated to go with a battle base/set so that you can fight higher level monsters and get the same (or more) experience as fighting easier monsters with more wisdom, all the while having more fun (more damage, more strategies, more challenges).

It would push players to find teams where they have synergy and can take on higher level mobs for more experience rather than just players of the same level who can produce fast fights for efficient experience/minute. (Iops be blitzing, yo!)

Yea I actually agree with this. I understand some would argue that this may encourage players to go solo, but I'm not sure about that either since grouping up has it's own advantages: it allows players to help each other complete fights they find too difficult, it allows players to complete fights faster, and it still allows players to drop more.

If this would still cause players to prefer soloing too much, there could also be a "bell curve" effect to xp by requiring a minimum number of players to participate to max out (say, at least 2).
0 0
Reply
Score : 9382
n0ak|2013-12-05 23:25:34
Let me start of by saying that I absolutely love your response, Blazeron. You should speak more smile

There's not much to add or expand upon, except for one thing.

If Achievements would increase xp, people would feel compelled to do those to get proper xp on their alts. Can you imagine this? "Man, i have to run everywhere with my level 30 alt to get achievement points so i can leech him quickly... ugh, does anyone have the mats to go to Otomai land? Damn, my alt hasn't got enough pods left for the cannon ball. Crap, i got aggroed by wabbits again, i almost reached the last island! Urgh!" You'd basically have to play the game as intended, which sounds really great, but for an alt, not so much. I just did some low level Astrub quests on my enu. It kind of felt off to get belittled by NPCs in Astrub that give you 2000 xp and 100 kamas for talking to the Fisher so you can learn that fishing exists in this game. Imagine doing all of this mess all the time for all your alts. Well, i guess there will never be a 100% acceptable solution to this problem as this game actively encourages people to multi-account and leech up multiple characters on the same account even (Frigost 3 telling certain classes to GTFO and then offering double xp for leeching up a new character instead). But yeah, we can all agree on the fact that wisdom boosting xp is definitely not the right solution.

There is a thread created very recently about sharing achievements between characters, to make your proggress faster and, together with what you've written, it gave me an idea.

What if you could officially choose a big daddy in Dofus?

By this I mean your main character. Let's say that achievement points give a bonus to experience gain instead of wisdom, to every character on the account, based on the character with the most achievement points. That coupled with experience multiplier could really help other characters on the same account, without forcing them to do all the achievements.


That's a good idea. If xp depended on a achievement points, then it would definitely be a good idea to have it depend on the character with the most points on the account. I see no issues with that.

An extension to this idea could also work for the multiaccounters: You can officially and permanently assign another character to be your 'main' and therefore benefit from the experience bonus his achievement points give (but only to this one character, not the whole account!). The procces, however would have been limited to linking only up to 7 accounts to a big daddy (or 3, depending on how useful the multimen will turn out to be). This way, multiaccounters would end up with several different accounts glued to them.

My intution suggests that something is wrong with the idea mentioned in the previous paragraph, but I can't put my finger on it. Here are however optional solutions that could possibly limit the system:
- It would cost ogrines to establish and maintain
- Big daddy would have to be online for you to use his achievement points

It will be hard to dig ourselves from that hole that wisdom has put us in...


That's right, it would probably be very hard to prevent abuse. It would have to be quite a commitment to prevent random people from just leeching off others with that, and even then, people would probably still abuse it if the link can be undone later. I don't see an effective way around this problem that wouldn't be awkward in some way.

Well, it's not like multis would be too slow at raising their alts or anything, so it's not really a problem.
0 0
Reply
Score : 647

I'm all for the undercap bonus suggestion. I recall Ankama talking about wanting rewards to match the effort, what with all these quest based dofus eggs. Taking on a much more powerful mob requires a ton more effort, so it only makes sense to increase the rewards, rather than penalize them. I like how Me-Mow said it, with an undercap bonus players would be more likely to go full strength and take on difficult mobs for better xp.

As for the wisdom increasing xp debate, maybe it would be best to tie xp to your combined stats instead, sort of like initiative. That would encourage players to scroll and purchase gear with a wide range of stats, which would help them be more useful in fights.

0 0
Reply
Score : 6473
Scientiavore|2013-12-06 03:51:24
Yea I agree with Blazeron, there's really no reason for wisdom to exist. It doesn't add anything interesting to the gameplay at all, and in fact makes for some pretty obvious choices. I mean why wouldn't someone spend points on a stat that makes a character level so much faster, when you can always reset after?

This is true in terms of leveling, however it does not apply, meaning Wisdom makes perfect sense, when it comes to debilitation.

The original Dofus was a different game...in some ways almost entirely.

Evolution is taking place in a rather Darwinian way, each generation offering subtle or sometimes drastic changes culminating into a more complete and effective organism.

Truth be told this is the only way it can be done if only in terms of workload alone, an easy transition for the playerbase is also integral.

Originally many classes had no innate access to AP/MP removal making the Wis stat meaningful to only some classes.
(Whereas stat bonuses like Str or Agi would always offer a meaningful bonus such as pods or Dodge/Lock/Crits, if only in meager amounts or passive in nature.)

I feel that XP gain was intended more as a sweetener than the intended primary benefit.
However, players will be players and they will maximize gains as well as they are able.

This is a blameless statement.

We can often look at these newer systems and see the incompatibilities with older ones, but I feel this is more a swan song for these older systems and mechanics than an oversight or failing in development.

In very rare situations these may clash, however it is not to the point where the game is made unplayable, but more so less than optimal.
The players quest for optimization makes things lean in a certain manner, which in turn furthers this strange Darwinian journey to instead cull the 'strong'; however the meek do not inherit the earth, they also optimize to scramble to the top.
This has been a rather consistent system which is producing good results, however I feel they come about all too slowly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caps are important to some degree.
If a lvl 400 team, 4 lvl 100 players, got more experience from a a lvl 600 mob than a lvl 600 team, wouldn't you be less inclined to invite friends along?

This to me fully supports a modifier of 0 for a higher level mob.

What about some classes that are imbalanced in terms of level progression however?

If a lvl 50 Int/Range build can easily take out a lvl 100 mob(such as Gobball hordes), wouldn't this put certain advantages which may then cause class changes?
Wouldn't this allow certain classes/builds to bypass content of a certain level thus perpetuating the problem, only in this case it can be someone going solo rather than requiring other players?

Keep in mind these aren't intended as valid arguments, but more so a looking under the rug.

The Devs try to balance at all levels of play, therefore these sorts of things matter...but isn't this the sort of thing that also causes difficulties within an overarching scheme of things?
Some of which potentially being more legitimate than that which a mere moments thought can produce?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Achievements functioning as Wisdom is a wonderful idea.

But I personally would rather see a flat amount of xp/creature/mob.

I would also say that stars are not a failure.
The goal of stars was to make the less played content more appealing, which it has.
Those that farm the same content "need" to scout around for "better" groups (ie more stars).

Whereas players like me just go do things I don't do often and I get better rewards for playing the "underdog content".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually we will hopefully see the sidekick concept expand out into making a character on the same account a sidekick.

Sidekicks were clearly implemented for solo accounters and classes which suffer from discriminatory content.
(I would LOVE to see reviews and feedback from players trying Frig 3 content with sidekicks.)

Despite what many players think, more money is great to Ankama, but I feel they would rather have a more community based game which multiaccounting doesn't really facilitate.

However with sidekicks it only takes 2 players to form a 4 man group.

0 0
Reply
Score : 206

I don't see the point in leeching. You leech to 150-180, and then "start playing" knowing nothing about the world nor the gameplay.

High levels are just bigger numbers and monsters that hit very high. Why would I want that in the first place? I enjoy fighting Fungi Masters, who hit 30 (if I'm not pressed by the wall), and gaining awesome XP from them. I'm slowly pacing, but enjoying the game. I never were and never will be leeched. No matter how many characters I make.

Just my two cents.

1 0
Reply
Score : 6473
Kyounen|2013-12-09 05:27:29
I don't see the point in leeching. You leech to 150-180, and then "start playing" knowing nothing about the world nor the gameplay.

High levels are just bigger numbers and monsters that hit very high. Why would I want that in the first place? I enjoy fighting Fungi Masters, who hit 30 (if I'm not pressed by the wall), and gaining awesome XP from them. I'm slowly pacing, but enjoying the game. I never were and never will be leeched. No matter how many characters I make.

Just my two cents.
I really appreciate this mentality!

However one thing to note in terms of high levels just being bigger numbers....

Low level content is mostly very straightforward.

Battles become more an excersize in tactics ans strategy as you become higher level, such as Frig content where you need to utilize pushback to make the boss be able to take damage.
Otomai island has similar content such as summons dictating what element the boss becomes weak to.

Lower level content has some of this, but very little.

Also, the multiaccounting aspect of this thread is really key here.
You need more players to do this more complex content, but not all players can handle the more complex content in your way (that is with the tactics available to your class(es)).
As such you just start a new account and skip everything to get them where you need them to be.

(By the way I LOVE Fungimasters!)
0 0
Reply
Score : 647
Electricotter|2013-12-09 05:17:21
Caps are important to some degree.
If a lvl 400 team, 4 lvl 100 players, got more experience from a a lvl 600 mob than a lvl 600 team, wouldn't you be less inclined to invite friends along?

Not really, since the level 600 team can go hit some 800 mobs, for even better xp. Just get a group together and go fight some mobs. The harder the mobs, the better the rewards. Perfectly logical system.
0 0
Reply
Respond to this thread