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Ankama Trackers

The Market undercutting Solution

By GaryLester - FORMER SUBSCRIBER - March 19, 2018, 12:10:25

So, i'm sure we've always experienced this during our time on Dofus. Especially those of us who are traders by nature in a very competitive Dofus market. And we check to see how our items are doing, when suddenly, we realise that we've been undercut and the average price has significantly dropped. 
The possible solution? A 20% kamas penalty(you could even increase this to 30%) for anyone who wishes to undercut the current average price of the item. So players could still undercut the average price, but at a cost to them. And i think this could encourage, and i hope it does, fair play for everyone in the Dofus market.

I'm open to any suggestions, criticism of the idea, the positives and negatives of this and other viable solutions or ideas.

Thanks a lot.

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I am a bit confused. Of course I undercut the existing offers if I want to sell something? Why should this be punished?

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Same, why is undercutting a bad thing? That's one of things that make economy dynamically active and alive. Forbidding any changes to prices makes the economy stagnant, something communism would have.

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The problem starts when too many ppl want to undercut a certain item and the demand is not high enough to compensate this.

I had a few occasions when I could only sell an item with 60-70% less than the initial price. Crazy.

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And this kind of practice seems to be justified. I want to encourage fair play in the game for everyone who plays it, and not just the few who want to benefit from quick sales. I've also experienced undercutting from not only on one item, but also multiple items in the market, which is why I've suggested a penalty for doing so. But it's just an idea, and by the looks of it, not a very popular idea lol.
I would have thought the idea to increase fair play in the game would have been well appreciated and received more positively. 

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Even easier solution, RIP the Grand Exchange from Runescape, they proved the system works when people can't see the prices to undercut

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Interesting. Like you've pointed out, the markets can be improved with some work to promote a fairer system for everyone and not just the few. 
Hopefully the ankama team do take note and try to make it a fairer system for all in the future. It does seem like a common issue among players. 
 

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if you dont want to sell at that low of price, then dont put it on market, problem solved. rofl

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Then that excludes people who want to be able to sell their items to make kamas of their own. I'm promoting a fairer system here, not one that benefits the few, but benefits everyone. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

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There's been a few negative responses, and I've expected those. But let's not forget this thread is about sharing ideas on improving, what i think is a flawed marketing system that i think needs improving. This is how we change the game for the better, by expressing our views about features we like and features we don't like.

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The major flaw in your plan is that it penalises for selling an item cheaper, so people will forever have the price remain static or constantly rise instead, a Major problem comes from the fact people Can see the item prices and the fact with 508 & idols existing, accumulating mass totals of items is just easy..

It's very difficult to pinpoint weather the true blame is the Lack of players in the server so not many people buy things or How easy it is to obtain everything so nobody buys,leaving items in shops for long enough to get undercut. In other words, we need an increased demand for items.

I do think the market system needs a overhaul i completly agree but i think there needs to be assessment in why this is a problem to begin with.
 

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Well it's more of a suggestion than a plan. But i do take your point that the idea of penalising players for selling an item cheaper may be harsh an unjust one.
I also never took into account about being able to see the average price of an item and the total average of a stack of items, and how this may effect the market also. 

And your point about the idols is also something i never took into account before.
Why buy items in the market, when you can easily gather the items from the 508 & idols with ease. 

I think one major issue with attracting players to Dofus, from what I've seen, is that Dofus is a lot more difficult for new players then say Wakfu for example.
That's probably a major reason for the lack of players in the server that you rightly pointed out. 

I agree with your point about needing an overhaul, but perhaps it's not only the market that needs an overhaul, but other features in the game too. I fully heartily agree that an assessment should be done.

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If your company is trying to sell a product for a certain price but another company is selling it for cheaper, why should you complain? It means there are people that are ready to sell the product at a cheaper price, they can be allowed to do so financially. Why should something be fixed?

What exactly is flawed in a marketing system? What exactly are you trying to fix? Is undercutting a problem?

Undercutting solely means selling for less kamas in exchange for selling faster.
Suppose you are selling something, and someone else undercuts you and thus there are 2 scenarios:
- 1st is when the demand is enough to compensate all the undercutters which would mean ppl buy that "something" not only from the undercutters but also from you, so you have no reason to be unhappy;
- 2nd is when the demand is not enough to compensate all the undercutters which would mean the price is destined to fall down, undercutting is unavoidable if a seller actually wants to sell it. The price will drop until it balances out the supply and demand level.

People generate more mats and items than it's necessary in 1 server but they don't generate enough kamas for everyone, thus the kamas per item rate is decreasing (while the item per kamas rate is increasing). Undercutting is just an after-effect of the server economy. Undercutting itself doesn't pose any threats to the economy.

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It's just from my own experience as a new player to the game. It seems to be a topic of discussion that does generate interest, which is a good thing. This is what the forums are all about, to encourage all different opinions and view points.
A flawed market system, in my opinion, is a system where items are continuously been significantly driven down. Someone did mention that actually being able to view the total average of the item, and the average lot price was one of the major flaws, which is something i didn't take into account.
Why undercutting may be seen as a problem? It's a good question. I think one example is player base. I've seen that players from the game Wakfu, that is considered easier than Dofus, come on to try Dofus, but find it very difficult to get going, especially when it comes to the Dofus economy and markets. One negative is that this could discourage new players from continuing to play.
Another point being made here was the 508 & idols, where materials would drop very easily, also reducing the prices of items. This was something that i didn't think of.
 

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This is a terrible idea. This kills the market

If people want to sell low, I say let them, I'm more than happy buying things underpriced up to resell at values I know things will move at.

Also, fun thought about weaponizing your idea:
What happens if a new area comes out, I rush to go gather all the new items and recipes, and list each for 200mk?

I've just made the market tax unusable for most people.

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I am very satisfied with the system.
That's how I can earn Kamas, and not just the big business people.
Even if I undercut, I still make a profit. And the things are buyed. If it gets too cheap, I will not sell. In this case sometimes I even buy in large quantities. Restrictions or penalties are quite outlandish.

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So you don't think the system should be changed or improved at all? I get that veterans will know how to work the current market and all, but what about new players to the game? Perhaps improvements to the market would be a welcome addition to new players as well as veterans.
 

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I think undercutting in itself is healthy for the market and needs to stay. The only thing I would want changed is when you want to massbuy and you have to click on every new price. I'd rather have it so you can just put in how many items you want and then it will figure out the cost for it. 

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(Apparently I can't reply via my phone since the last day, idk why but w/e)


You are right you can speak up in the forum and discuss things. But I can also disagree with a  post, that's also why forum exists.

Many people have been suggesting to stop or limit undercutters in the past, and those people are all the same, driven by greedy desire to make easy money while having lack of knowlegde about economy or not thinking thoroughly about the after-effects.

I can somehow understand what are you thinking; from the perspective of a relatively new player one would like to have money, and not just any random money but a reliable and guaranteed source of income. But you need to understand that money doesn't fall from the sky, and it applies not only to you but also on your potential buyers; the buyers can't also throw money out of the window, they buy stuff that is cheaper, they consider their demand and overall supply. For example if they can farm something by themselves, they have no reason to buy stuff from you (unless making money with other ways would be faster for them than to actually do the stuff, in which case they'd pay you for saving time).

Also you need to remember that this game is not a single-player where you are alone but a multiplayer game where there are many other potential sellers who can obtain the same item you trying to sell and they have the right to compete for a potential buyer.

You make an argument that starting in dofus is harder than wakfu, that's fair, however the hardship also proves the fact that the dofus game is more developed in all aspects.

Making kamas as a new player is always harder than as an old player because no way a new player could be as devoted as an old one and no way would possess the same level of server market awareness.

Me asking you [why "undercutting" for you is bad] is a serious question.
You are proposing punishing undercutters because you want to combat "undercutting" but you can't explain why it is exactly a problem. You say it's for new players to make easier money but "fixing" undercutters doesn't solve any problem.
Let's assume Ankama actually listens to you and forbids undercutting. Then the price would remain the same on market. But what's the point holding a high value if nobody is gonna buy? If people know the item in question has high supply they won't be paying high for it. In the end you still can't sell anything since it's not the market fault, it's the buyers who wouldn't consider buying your stuff.
If you make a formal limit on the markets people will just avoid using the market and instead trading manually via chat and pm where the price would be real. In fact your suggestion to limit undercutting would just tarnish the reputation of markets and force people to stop using market.
Not sure how stopping undercutting would be fair for everyone. It's just a fake control over economy.

Undercutting is always a sign of big supply. So what if you want to sell something, maybe 1000 more people want to sell the same item while there are only about 10 people ready to buy.
- The price going up after undercutting means there is enough demand to compensate for the undercutting.
- The price continuing to get undercutted means the demand is not high enough for a seller to be able to sell it.

If you just want to allow new players make easier money then let me remind you how players can even get kamas.
Actually many people ask that question, but there's only 2 types of kamas generating: direct (when you directly generate kamas by fighting a mob, doing a quest or achievement, opening treasure hunt chest, total amount of kamas in the server is also increased) and indirect (when you trade something with kamas of another player, total amount of kamas in the server is the same).
It's literally the same for the items, equips, pets, etc; you either generate those directly or indirectly via trade.
As a new player you don't have anything compared to an old player who have invested his time to generate both kamas and time. It's a given you need to work hard and compete with them in the market aspect to advance through the game.

If you want to make kamas you need to work for it, study the market because economy is always ruled by supply and demand; and if you want to be involved in the economy trades you need to 1st generate some possessions (kamas, items or time) so that you could offer it to another player. Undercutting is just an after-effect of supply and demand. If you actually want to change the economy system you'd need to propose a way to modify supply and demand, but in order to do so you need to know economics.

Ankama would never consider a light-headed suggestion that could potentially ruin the entire server economy.

In the end it's the same every time, ppl want to make easy money and blame market or undercutting for it while there is nothing wrong in the market.

You could also suggest finding a way to increase demand of items to compensate for undercutting but that's also and hard topic which needs thorough and careful analyzing of all the after-effects and not just a simple mindless "we need to fix".

People disliking your posts aren't being hateful, they are just smart enough to know that your way of thinking is wrong and can do more harm even to yourself.

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I think we should address the bigger issue here; people are not buying enough of my stuff, and not quickly enough.

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Nobody is buying because there are more seller than buyer. Old players hopes that new players would buy their stuff, but there are hardly any new players coming into the game and those new players would also want to be a seller themselves. New players hopes to sell their stuffs to old players (and maybe to other new players), but what they are selling are usually stuffs that others also have plenty of.

The OP did ask for suggestions to undercutting, so here's mine.

Fixed Price or SRP (Standard Retail Price)
With this system, items cannot be sold with exorbitant or grossly lowered price.
Example:
Vulbis Dofus (SRP 20-50mk)
If you want to sell it at lower or higher price, you have to sell it thru personal exchange or merchant mode.

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I do not think stopping undercutting is what needs to happen. Sometimes you just have to be supremely patient when selling stuff at average or above prices. If I all of a sudden need to sell 20,000 wool it would be smarter for me to sell it in small portions rather than placing 20k up and hoping it sells as I have completely dominated the market for days. Something I learned from Rushu, One player farming a resource for a long time can cause a price to crash if it is flooded with the item. It is a problem of the bulk seller not the quick seller. If I have to wait for that 20,000 wool to sell then absolutely someone will undercut the price if the someone only needed to sell 10000  then this guy selling 10000 gets undercut by the guy selling 2000 then 1000. Same type of mess for x10 or x1. 

A very basic concept of a solution: More products need to be more valuable Less resources in the game as a whole
If I am an INT eni, then I need a very specific list of resources to build my set as compared to the Str IOP this causes these items to sell at crazy prices just like the gobball set did before these modern changes to the costs. Things that sell regularly are things that people constantly need for professions and a very basic few other things. 

How many thousands of mats do you have in your bank that will unlikely ever be sold or used? 

(STOP OPINION TIME!)
I do not care if it stays the way it is, I've seen far worse economies, and honestly I have always been surprised when there is enough people looking to buy a very specific overmaged ring within a few days. Dofus is a game where you can build so many different ways which creates a more specified economy. 

 

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The value of items in a market is based on a very simple relationship. That relationship is: The amount of the item available, compared to the amount of persons who want that item. If there are but a few of an item available, yet almost everyone wants one, than those who have them can get a high price for them. Conversely, if an item is available in abundance, but few want the item, than the price will be quite low.

This is elementary economics.

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It is called "Law of Supply and Demand"...

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I think Gunners idea is perfect and yes please dofus egg market/shop needs to be a thing!

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