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Primary Characteristics need their secondary effects reworked

By ichbinshoo - FORMER SUBSCRIBER - November 26, 2018, 23:31:51

Dear Ankama and fellow players,

I know this is a long topic. But I guess it is worth reading and giving some feedback to help build a better game.

Have you ever wondered why do Strength builds have an extra type of damage, Intelligence builds have healing benefits, Agility builds have huge benefits from both lock/dodge and, well... Chance builds still only benefit from extra prospection? (After so many years and game mechanics evolution, prospection still?)
Well, it must have been a long time since these features have been last reviewed, and a LOT has changed in terms of gameplay, strategy and items since these were stabilished.

Why not give Chance an actual decent secondary effect like 1%Critical for each 100 Chance?
Maybe we should have Strength increasing Lock while Agility increasing Dodge?
Intelligence could maybe be the only one to give significant extra Initiative besides the healing benefit?
Changes like these (not specifically these) would certainly help balance the mono/multi element pros and cons, make more people consider a bigger variety of build approaches with more benefits combining elements for their characters.

Today, with the way things work now, Chance/Intelligence/Strength have no real benefits compared to %Power in combat (except for healers). Only Agility keeps an actual benefit compared to it.
Giving up a tiny bit of initiative in exchange for an easy way of obtaining high multielemental damage or filling set gaps without an actual tradeoff? Not a fair trade, in my opinion.

Basically, playing multielemental builds with %Power items or, putting %Power items in mono builds, make no difference if you are going to use Water/Fire/Earth spells, because their secondary effects are completely disposable in combat. (Except for healers. But still, since so many of the healing spells in the game now work based on %HP, this is also somehow questionable)

Don't get me wrong, though. Using %Power items is very important as they serve as universal items that easily merge in any build or to provide multielemental bonuses, but there should be an actual tradeoff, because today there is almost none except for Agility builds. 

Finally, I bring my suggestion:

Strength, Agility, Chance and Intelligence need a secondary effect rework to better balance the pros and cons of mono/multi elemental builds.

Strength: +1 Lock/10 Strength
Agility: +1 Dodge/10 Agility
Chance: +1% Critical/100 Chance
Intelligence: + 1 Heals/100 Inteligence and +1 Extra Initiative / 1 Inteligence 

On a side note, I believe Neutral Damage should be considered an universal source of damage, viable for any element instead of being boosted exclusively by Strength/Power, and inflictable only through Weapons or Special Spells, making them an alternative source of damage for specific occasions. This change would consider turning spells like Leek Pie, Moon Hammer, Lightning Strike, etc, into Neutral Damage spells. 
Neutral Damage would be calculated based on the Caster's highest elemental damage, but inflicted as Neutral with universal spells acquired throughout the game.

If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading! biggrin
Feedback is always welcome!

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Score : 366

Instant + from me! I was planning to make a similar suggestion (even the stat bonuses were similar). I completly agree on the effects of Agility, Strength and Intelligence, however i have some reservations on Chance. Critical Hits are associated with dealing damage and in my opinion each build should be equal on this field (at least theoretically). What do You think about MP Reduction/Resistance bonus for Chance? Wisdom will keep AP Reduction/Resistance bonus and will get a Neutral Damage bonus. In this way we will get an additional elemental path which will be associated with light/darkness element (just like the last two Primordial Dofus). Also i think, that Initiative should be exclusive to Intelligence - there is no need for other stats to benefit from this once they have their new additional bonuses. 

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Hello there, thanks for the reply!
Indeed, critical hits are instantly associated with higher damage, which is a must for many characters. I agree with you that theoretically every element should be able to score critical hits like every other, since it's a base mechanic. Unfortunately, following this logic, it would be necessary to first establish equal footing by revisiting every single item in the game, making sure each one has an equal counterpart for other elements allowing to achieve same results in different elements. 
For example: The Nomarow Set has the highest critical hit bonus in the whole game. Why isn't there a strength set with as many critical hits? It's just the way it is, a "characteristic" of said item with its elements and vice versa.

Since the game offers 4 combinable elements, which have completely different available items from each other with different elemental combinations viable, it is impossible to estabilish equal footing in this matter for every single scenario (which is somewhat nice, because each item has its own "personality", and each element its own vocation).

The connection between chance/luck/critical seemed something "natural". The same way someone strong easily keeps a tight grip on his target, someone nimble dodges his targets or someone intelligent plans his moves faster.
To make it so without being game breaking, I proposed the 1/100 ratio. Most characters dedicated to critical hits have already high bonuses from items, which makes this extra boost 1/100 ratio less significant proportionally.

As for the AP/MP abilities, I think they should both stick to Wisdom. Increasing debuffing characteristics together with elemental damage would make this element overpowered in my opinion.

On the other hand, the neutral damage being boosted by wisdom looks like an interesting idea and indeed fits the lore. Maybe this would make wisdom way more powerful than it already is: AP/MP Reduction/Resistance + Damage could be too much to be granted by a single stat.

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Old suggestion
Stats -              Battle Boost -   Off-battle Boost
Strength -        Neutral dmg -   Pods
Agility -            Lock/Dodge -   Running Speed
Chance -          Crit -                   Prospecting
Intelligence -   Heals -               Faster regeneration

Wis -                Rape/Resist -    Exp Gain

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+1 for more off-battle boosts.
Extra speed/regen would be a nice touch. 

But I still think it's kinda broken keeping both lock and dodge attached to the same stat. 

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Uh, I forgot to hit the reply thing and now it's a mess biggrin

Sylivvannus|2018-11-28 05:46:31
My point was there is no need to limit this discussion to actual items or sets, because if there will be any changes planned for characteristics, which, i agree with You, should be done, the items will have to be revised too.

All of the stat bonuses fall in the category of control and i think Chance shouldn't be an exception from this rule. That's what i meant when i said that all characteristics should be equal in terms of damage. 

While it would be still possible to create non-crit Chance build, its bonus will impose specific direction rather than being some sort of addition in contrast to other stats effects which are far more universal. 

I think that's why spells with AP/MP Reduction have such low base damage. And don't forget, that this modification was supposed to increase AP/MP Resistance at the same time which will balance things out, because it will be much easier to build AP/MP resistant character. And also that's why i said it would require balancing some items. In terms of debbuffing Lock has at least as much potential as Reduction abilities and it's far more versatile and You still find it alright to bound it to elemental damage. At best Lock will force enemies to do some positioning (which is already a waste of AP/MP) and at worst it will freeze them on the spot. AP/MP Reduction requires spending AP and it's basing on luck, while Lock doesn't - even character with 0AP can effectively lock someone. So no, i don't think it would be too OP.

The drawback of having "all" these skills in one stat is no damage. And when building for example AP Reduction build i really don't care about bonuses to MP Reduction and Resistance neither AP Resistance so it's really not that attractive. Also even trophies without set restriction gives more desired bonus (12 vs. 10) than spending 300 points into Wisdom; at the moment this characteristic is used in pure reduction builds only. And it's not like this some obscure, tertiary characteristic from the bottom of the chart - it's a primary characteristic, which is supposed to be a base, interesting for every character, not just for some gimmical builds. While it is already possible to create good AP/MP Reducion build, this change would make it much more interesting and tempting to create effective AP/MP Resistance builds.

Crimson Dofus is associated with Fire and is boosting Power, Ochre is bound to Earth element and increases AP, Emerald Dofus is conneted to Air and grants vitality. I guess something went wrong.

While I agree on some parts with you, there are some things we must simply accept that are extremely unlikely to happen, like an item rebalance. It would be the mass confusion. That's why I propose uneven bonuses for uneven characteristics which already have uneven items.
Since most sets today offer more than a single element boost along with a wide variety of secondary abilities bonuses, the combination of those is present even by some characters who play mainly a single element, and should also benefit their care when maging stuff.

I think you misunderstood what I meant on "elemental damage boosts and control shouldn't go together". I didn't mean specific elements or builds are meant to play control roles, or that only certain elements are meant to do damage. I only meant that a high score of any characteristic shouldn't be granted both damage increase and control abilities, it would be OP.
Control spells most of the times have low base damage, but each race has also high base damage alternatives for these elements. It would make it far too easy and require less restrictions and choices for any character to excel at multiple areas at the same time, which is game breaking.  

Surely connecting Chance to Critical would become something "natural", but again, a 1/100 ratio would keep this bonus small enough so it doesn't "get in the way" of anti-critters, benefit characters scores of chance from equipment/scrolls/buffs even if they don't specifically use chance. Critical is pretty universal and the vast majority of players will always want their critical bonus as high as possible, even if their build is not critical dedicated. It's very niche to avoid critical hits, and again, easily achievable with a single item and item maging. 

When you talk about Lock having as much potential as reduction abilities and versatility, I have to disagree on this point. For someone to lock someone else properly, many things must be present: a high lock score, target low dodge score, prevent mobility spells the target may cast, map positioning, proper equipment with high resistances to avoid the strategy to backfire, close combat only, and absolutely innefective against some monsters/races. 
On the other hand, reduction abilities have a wide variety to choose from: some are high ranged to keep targets far, some are close-combat to prevent targets from escaping, some are usable in both situations, in some scenarios is absolutely unavoidable, if your enemy has a high AP-Resistance you can go for MP-Reduction, and some even take more AP/MP than you actually spend to cast the spell and do damage at the same time. The luck factor is indeed a pain and should be revised, but I guess a system like dodge/lock with a calculated output wouldn't work as well.

Aw, stupid dragons and their stupid eggs... Hahaha tongue
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ap/mp reap builds are the most unbalanced thing in dofus atm. well builded one can disable u even with 120res, why? cos only new pet and wis gives u like 80reap. just this 2 things are almost 2times more than res on averg pvp set. Also reap spells give soooo hight adventage, not only by this reaped points. expl if some1 cast spell for 3 ap which deal u 100dmg and reap 3ap from u. its mean u are behind him like 3ap reapd + ap wich u spend to deal 100dmg which is in real equal to 3ap adventage or more for him cos u have to get him in rang, then u have to brak ivory and finly then u can do some dmg(if u still have ap..)
Also builds like this dont have counter play in fight. all what u can do is get a res set-up with around 200res and use it in the preparation phase but even then u have to know that your oponent is a reaper... 

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i agree @Gunnerwolfang
str - build which is based on dmg so str and neut dmg seems to be fine, 2 elements in 1 price
agi- mobility builds -> lock and dodge fits here great, i dont feel that keep them both is broken. in @Gunner setup each element got double profit (only chance got 1, but crit buff is strong enought) in fight so its ok. (I explained my point of view exactly in response to Gunner post)
chance -> NEED REVAMP AF, any combat buff yet, so yea, crit is good. like 100 chance =1 crit (overall its around 12crit)
int - heal would be great, also int still should increasse healing by %base, like we have it now.
This "world effeckt" would be great as 7hellssmile 

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About chance giving crits;
Yous seem the be forgetting that not everyone wants crits. There's lots of items now with -crit damage and -crits, making this proposed change meaningless or even straight up bad for people who use these items. Theres also few spells that rely on chance, but have no use for crits. (eg osa summons, sram traps, feca glyphs, rogue bombs, huppermage's runification/manifestation spell,ect)

For pvp, if someone gets a hint that you might be chance, they will just stack crit resis.
And for pvm, the only monster I can think of that has high crit resis is Ilyzaella, whose lowest resistance is chance...

Im all for buffing chance's secondary effect, just not crits.

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Yeah, this is the purpose of this topic. To make people discuss and bring different opinions and feedback.

I understand some people choose not to have their critical hits increased, or some classes may not even need critical hits at all in some scenarios (I play sram/rogue and I understand what you mean since most spells I cast myself don't even crit), but the same goes with strength boosting neutral damage, agility boosting lock or intelligence boosting healing spells: not everyone needs it, and it won't be used by every spell or build, but it's still there.
I don't believe it could become something bad to a character since anti-crit builds remove +crit from items and usually use -crit items which is more than enough to keep 0% crit.

As for PvP, getting a hint on someone being chance works the same way as someone can get a hint that you might play a strength, agility or intelligence build and result in instant resist stacking. Plus, the 1/100 ratio does not make any chance character an instant critical hit dedicated build.
And well, gambling resist stacking or trying to get build hints in Kolossium is now restricted to analyzing party formation, since the game hides players' gear before battle starts. 

I made the suggestion of +Critical Hits because it is the only in-battle secondary ability that's not boosted by any primary and is universal, while keeping the bonus low enough so it's not game breaking.
Also, it would give a small benefit even to those who don't play chance, the same way happens with characters who benefit from a small boost to lock/dodge even when they don't play an agility build but still mage their items agility for this purpose.

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Although there are many healing spells based on the target's %HP, there are still many based on the caster's INT. So I don't think INT needs to have another bonus besides boosting healing. Besides, having INT builds going first isn't always helpful, even to the INT based character themselves.

Healing as an ability helps not just the caster, but also directly helps the teammates. In fact many healing spells have minimum range and can only heal others. So I think other elements' secondary bonuses should similarly help teammates. From this standpoint AP/MP reduction and Lock would be good, and critical hit rate would be a bad choice.

I don't think splitting lock and dodge would really help, because then a locker build would just invest in STR+AGI instead of only AGI. Also, being able to lock wouldn't be very useful if you can't dodge.

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I like flexibility above all. My proposed change would be to just give "secondary stat points." 1 per level, bonus at level 100 to get 200 total at level 200. make rune sinks be the cost of a stat perhaps, with some tweaking as +20% crits at lvl 200 would be mad. Having these stats linked to a build is bad in my opinion.

I dislike that I cant just pump points into prospecting when I want to drop something from low level mobs without removing all int from my build etc. Would also make group initiative order easier, no need for that 3.3k ini cra to go before the panda anymore wihtout any real sacrifises. (Been there, done that).

Afraid that I havent thought about this ever honestly, so this suggestion probably has more wrong then right, but it's my thoughts about it.

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As an alternative to this, I wouldn't mind "secondary stats" we could buff manually in a build - if we're going to keep primary stats similar, maybe classes could have the option to level e.g. pushback damage, ap redux, dodge/lock etc and make stats each give one secondary bonus

e.g. Int/heals, str/lock, agi/dodge, chance/(ap/mp) redux

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