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Ankama Trackers

[Official] Bots

By November 10, 2008, 16:33:03
Reactions 1413
Score : 23
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-08 06:25:01
ejramirez|2014-05-08 05:44:57
If that's the case then captchas may not be the solution. But the improved resource protectors may be. A little complication in the battle would be a small price to pay with or without compensation from Ankama if we want to eliminate bots from dofus.
But are you willing to keep updating them as the bots adapt? Look at it like this, each time you change something it will buy you maybe 3 to 4 weeks at most, before the botters find a workaround and ramp back up to full speed.
Why should we make a substandard solution? Of course when we start it, what we want is for it to last for a long good time. If we can make it really good, there shouldn't be any way around it.
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Score : 27383
ejramirez|2014-05-12 08:40:06
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-08 06:25:01
ejramirez|2014-05-08 05:44:57
If that's the case then captchas may not be the solution. But the improved resource protectors may be. A little complication in the battle would be a small price to pay with or without compensation from Ankama if we want to eliminate bots from dofus.
But are you willing to keep updating them as the bots adapt? Look at it like this, each time you change something it will buy you maybe 3 to 4 weeks at most, before the botters find a workaround and ramp back up to full speed.
Why should we make a substandard solution? Of course when we start it, what we want is for it to last for a long good time. If we can make it really good, there shouldn't be any way around it.
If there was a perfect solution Ankama would have probably figured it out in the last 10 years. They have been trying to curb bots for all this time, the fact that they haven't succeed suggests that your idea of a perfect solution probably doesn't exist.
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Score : 275

Dear dofus,

Please do somthing about the mines in dofus they full with bots so i cant lvl my miner.
A good idea is to place agresive monsters in mines (not extremly good) but good enoug to kill these bots !!

I hope you like this idea??
Please respond at this this !!

Greatings despreate dofus players

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Score : 37

Instead of having mods tell us we are breaking rules, instead of having mods police the subscribers who pay to play this game. we are reporting rule breakers. My suggestions is these mods do something useful like ban the bots instead they will delete/edit/condem your forum post in 30 seconds but bots and other problems run freely, I have made my last post on these forums and spent my last money on this game.

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Nessa123|2014-05-19 16:56:09
Instead of having mods tell us we are breaking rules, instead of having mods police the subscribers who pay to play this game. we are reporting rule breakers. My suggestions is these mods do something useful like ban the bots instead they will delete/edit/condem your forum post in 30 seconds but bots and other problems run freely, I have made my last post on these forums and spent my last money on this game.

Forum moderators are here to see that forum posts follow the rules of our forums. Our moderators are following the forums when they cannot log into the game. We ask that players follow some very simple instructions when reporting bots, and if those instructions are not followed, the moderators cannot leave the post visible.

For those who might be reading this, please take the time to follow the instructions for reporting bots in the Contact a Mod thread. It's very important to use the correct posts, because whenever you make a post that does not follow the rules, you are wasting our mod team's time. That thread exists to help the mod team solve your problems as quickly as possible. If you ignore the rules of the thread, you're only extending the time that it takes for a mod to help you.

Score : 23
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-12 17:42:02
ejramirez|2014-05-12 08:40:06
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-08 06:25:01
ejramirez|2014-05-08 05:44:57
If that's the case then captchas may not be the solution. But the improved resource protectors may be. A little complication in the battle would be a small price to pay with or without compensation from Ankama if we want to eliminate bots from dofus.
But are you willing to keep updating them as the bots adapt? Look at it like this, each time you change something it will buy you maybe 3 to 4 weeks at most, before the botters find a workaround and ramp back up to full speed.
Why should we make a substandard solution? Of course when we start it, what we want is for it to last for a long good time. If we can make it really good, there shouldn't be any way around it.
If there was a perfect solution Ankama would have probably figured it out in the last 10 years. They have been trying to curb bots for all this time, the fact that they haven't succeed suggests that your idea of a perfect solution probably doesn't exist.
The fact that they haven't succeeded yet suggests that the perfect solution is yet to be found. Look at it like this, every problem has a solution. We just have to formulate them, and then when we find something good, we experiment on them. Try them to see if they work. I know that it will be a very hard work, and that is why we are here to help suggest ideas. As the bots adapt, update it if we have to. And that can be done through the weekly maintenance. So long as we remain vigilant, the botters will get tired themselves. We just have to persevere and be firm. What we want is the perfect experience in dofus and I believe that every dollar (whatever currency we use) on dofus should be well spent. I'm not saying that it isn't. What I'm saying is that we can improve the game experience, and we should.
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Score : 27383
ejramirez|2014-05-20 09:37:48
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-12 17:42:02
ejramirez|2014-05-12 08:40:06
Revil-Nunor|2014-05-08 06:25:01
ejramirez|2014-05-08 05:44:57
If that's the case then captchas may not be the solution. But the improved resource protectors may be. A little complication in the battle would be a small price to pay with or without compensation from Ankama if we want to eliminate bots from dofus.
But are you willing to keep updating them as the bots adapt? Look at it like this, each time you change something it will buy you maybe 3 to 4 weeks at most, before the botters find a workaround and ramp back up to full speed.
Why should we make a substandard solution? Of course when we start it, what we want is for it to last for a long good time. If we can make it really good, there shouldn't be any way around it.
If there was a perfect solution Ankama would have probably figured it out in the last 10 years. They have been trying to curb bots for all this time, the fact that they haven't succeed suggests that your idea of a perfect solution probably doesn't exist.
The fact that they haven't succeeded yet suggests that the perfect solution is yet to be found. Look at it like this, every problem has a solution. We just have to formulate them, and then when we find something good, we experiment on them. Try them to see if they work. I know that it will be a very hard work, and that is why we are here to help suggest ideas. As the bots adapt, update it if we have to. And that can be done through the weekly maintenance. So long as we remain vigilant, the botters will get tired themselves. We just have to persevere and be firm. What we want is the perfect experience in dofus and I believe that every dollar (whatever currency we use) on dofus should be well spent. I'm not saying that it isn't. What I'm saying is that we can improve the game experience, and we should.
This isn't a movie, the good guys don't always win.

Case in point (same as before) drug cartels and the governments that try to fight them. How can you beat a group of people who gross hundreds of billions of dollars of profit a year, don't have to fight fair and abide by rules like governments do, and are willing to do whatever it takes to win?

Until Ankama lowers itself to the same bottom line standard as the people who are running bots they will never win. You know this "Ogrines problem" that Ankama just recently discovered? How long do you think botters have been using it? How many back up plans do you think they are already setting into motion now that this option has been removed?

Botters will never get tired, never stop, never sleep. I would expect Ankama to say "fuck it" and give up with Moderators and anti-bot features long before botters would get frustrated.
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Score : 1284

The only reason bots are in game in the first place is because Ankama allows them to be. I will never ever believe bots are unstoppable. It's doubtful Ankama will stop them but I think it would be easy if they wanted to, they just don't want to because bots contribute to part of their profit.

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Score : 5970
Arcade11|2014-05-20 21:34:08
The only reason bots are in game in the first place is because Ankama allows them to be. I will never ever believe bots are unstoppable. It's doubtful Ankama will stop them but I think it would be easy if they wanted to, they just don't want to because bots contribute to part of their profit.


Picture a swarm of ants. That's what the bots are (replace every instance of "ant" in that video with "bot"). Blind, mindless, always on the move, and hungry to hunt. And if one dies, there are multiple new ants to take the place of the dead weight. Kill off one bot, numerous other bots spring up to take their place.

So now what? You've got this swarm of ravenous ants that's not only impacting you in the Krosmoz, but also your neighbors in distant Azeroth, Gielinor, and a host of other small universes. What does one do? Make an update that ceases bot activity by blocking some key part of the software? That stops the botters for awhile while they design all new software that bypasses these limitations. You see, botters have pretty much infinite resources. After all, botting is a massive industry in some parts of the world.

Imagine a room filled with computers, and people playing Dofus. Or, rather, a room of people monitoring tens to hundreds of modified Dofus clients each. These people are paid to either grind it out manually and give their earnings to their company, or to simply create accounts for the software and make sure everything is running smoothly.

People literally have careers in which they sit in a room and farm gold. According to this article, MMO gold trading is a £700m a year industry in China. This is an article from 2009, mind you.

That doesn't even cover the players that use custom software designed by others in order to bot. Macros are pretty easy to design.

So what can possibly be done in the face of all of that? The solution is quite simple:

In order to permanently eradicate bots, Ankama would have to have the ability to completely and permanently bring a halt to a thriving multimillion dollar industry with roots in numerous countries, some large and powerful, others small and shady, but all with complicit governments. And then somehow they have to rob the entirety of mankind of the knowledge of how to program software that could automate actions.

There is no simple solution to the botting problem that plagues every popular MMO in existence.
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Score : 1284

Stoping the bot problem is so simple. I'd sit here and explain detail how to get rid of bots permanently and forever. It wouldn't do any good though, so believe what you must, you will never convince me.

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Score : 27383
Arcade11|2014-05-21 04:23:07
Stoping the bot problem is so simple. I'd sit here and explain detail how to get rid of bots permanently and forever. It wouldn't do any good though, so believe what you must, you will never convince me.
Getting rid of the internet doesn't count.
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Score : 1284

This is what a bot free server looks like, just 1 example. I could give a few different scenarios.

Server host sells golden tickets for $50. This ticket allows you to play on a 100% bot free server. Host also charges 20 dollars a month cash subscription. Now host takes 50$ from the ticket sales and 50% of the subscription sales and hire a team of moderators, so atleast 1 mod is online at all times. Now 1000 players sign up. So we $50,000 from tickets plus $10 this month. We have $60,000 surplus to pay mods.

Lets say 100 bots sign up, First of all you have their $50 plus their $10 a month so bots pay you $6000. Now when players report bot activity which is never allowed to flourish. The paid mods on duty ban the bots and their accounts permanently. So now the bots lost $6000. Your server has become a place where bots lose money. You have soured the milk theres no reason for a bot to join. The bots will pay and get banned and lose money. They move on to easier targets. All the while your collecting a surplus from your golden ticket sales and sub sales, to fight the bot problem should it ever come back.

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Score : 4776
Arcade11|2014-05-21 04:48:14
This is what a bot free server looks like, just 1 example. I could give a few different scenarios.

Server host sells golden tickets for $50. This ticket allows you to play on a 100% bot free server. Host also charges 20 dollars a month cash subscription. Now host takes 50$ from the ticket sales and 50% of the subscription sales and hire a team of moderators, so atleast 1 mod is online at all times. Now 1000 players sign up. So we $50,000 from tickets plus $10 this month. We have $60,000 surplus to pay mods.

Lets say 100 bots sign up, First of all you have their $50 plus their $10 a month so bots pay you $6000. Now when players report bot activity which is never allowed to flourish. The paid mods on duty ban the bots and their accounts permanently. So now the bots lost $6000. Your server has become a place where bots lose money. You have soured the milk theres no reason for a bot to join. The bots will pay and get banned and lose money. They move on to easier targets. All the while your collecting a surplus from your golden ticket sales and sub sales, to fight the bot problem should it ever come back.
You seriously think this would work? Bots are banned all of the time. They get their money by selling kamas to people through 3rd party websites. So long as people use those websites, they will not stop.

Moderators can not ban every bot in existence. Even if you had 10 Moderators per server at any given time, bots would slip through the cracks and people don't report and the map is too big to search everywhere.
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Score : 1284

and its comments like the above poster, is the reason me even posting is pointless.

Question: You seriously think this would work?

Answer: I know for a fact it would

I don't know of anyone who buys kamas, but if bots can't collect kamas because the get banned within hours and lose money. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE ANY TO SELL?

Its costing each bot $60 just to step foot on the server and they would get banned before they gathered any substantial amount of anything.

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Score : 27383

Each Moderator will cost at least 40,000 or 50,000 dollars a year (plus healthcare benefits), and you want 10 (which probably wouldn't be enough anyway). And then what happens when the other Moderators quit because they aren't willing to donate their time as freely anymore when some of their contemporaries are getting paid?

There is one other quibble here that you haven't taken into consideration, that fact that new Moderators are added at a glacially slow pace. [Izmar] added two Moderators from her last drive (perhaps three, but we will wait and see on the last one), and she probably averages around 2 Moderators a year. Given her record, you think she will be able to add 10 Moderators in a short period of time?

Now lets say that the bots are making some of their income off the Ogrines market. This means you will have to create a separate Ogrines market for this server, otherwise if you are buying botters Ogrines you are still giving them money even if they aren't on your specific server. On the same vein, you can't allow server transfers because that would allow you to get around paying extra for your "golden ticket".

And most importantly, how do you start your economy? Where is the gear and kamas coming from? Do you want to pay all this money to be on a server where it will take years to build its way up the way the other servers had to do?

It also occurred to me that I would be remiss if I didn't mention that this wouldn't really hurt bots, keeping them off one server has already been done successfully (see Heroic server). We need something that will fix it for all the servers, and I don't think putting all the servers on this payment method would be a viable way of keeping the game in business.

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Score : 1284

Complete nonsense.

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Score : 27383

You think running a successful server is as simple as "charge x dollars and away we go, bots won't possibly go for this." ?

There are a ton of factors that have to go into starting a server, even more than what has been mentioned before, and if you think just glossing over those issues and hoping for the best is the best solution... your server may not be around for too long.

A server as you're describing it sounds like a Pay to win model, which isn't what Dofus was built around, and advancing would be built around who was able to buy the most Ogrines to get the most kamas, who was willing to pay the extra money to get access in the first place and so on.

Some of the other stuff you mentioned has been brought up before and refuted in this topic as well, fixing bots is like curing cancer. There is no easy fix outside of something drastic which would cause more harm than good. (ie: getting rid of the internet)

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Arcade11|2014-05-21 05:02:00
and its comments like the above poster, is the reason me even posting is pointless.

Question: You seriously think this would work?

Answer: I know for a fact it would

I don't know of anyone who buys kamas, but if bots can't collect kamas because the get banned within hours and lose money. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO HAVE ANY TO SELL?

Its costing each bot $60 just to step foot on the server and they would get banned before they gathered any substantial amount of anything.

In cases like these, botters generally turn their attentions towards preying off existing clients by using phishing techniques, or turning towards fraudulent payments/stolen credit cards, as we have seen in the past week or so on the Ogrines market.

People who are willing to break the law to make money one way generally do not have much of an issue breaking the law in other ways.

And there is another, more social issue with a plan like this.

The creation of a "VIP" server, by merit of its existence, turns other servers into a ghetto. Perhaps those who can pay to access such a server won't give a moment's thought to the user experience of other players, but the question that we as a company would need to ask is: is it worth it to alienate the larger part of our players and customers, and potentially degrade the experience of new customers by creating this kind of divide between an "upper class" and a "lower class" type of server? And if it does alienate and drive away other players, can our business survive on only those types of players who have enough money to (as you put it), pay $60 to set foot on a server?

I don't think those figures are supportable in the long run.
Score : 23
This isn't a movie, the good guys don't always win. Case in point (same as before) drug cartels and the governments that try to fight them. How can you beat a group of people who gross hundreds of billions of dollars of profit a year, don't have to fight fair and abide by rules like governments do, and are willing to do whatever it takes to win? Until Ankama lowers itself to the same bottom line standard as the people who are running bots they will never win. You know this "Ogrines problem" that Ankama just recently discovered? How long do you think botters have been using it? How many back up plans do you think they are already setting into motion now that this option has been removed? Botters will never get tired, never stop, never sleep. I would expect Ankama to say "fuck it" and give up with Moderators and anti-bot features long before botters would get frustrated. This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - May 20, 2014, 18:02:53.Add Quote Here

Yeah this isn't. They don't always win. But then again they can win. You said it yourself already, it will buy us weeks. Therefore it will work for a time, Which means it will work. And then you just have to make adjustments.

About the ogrines exchange problem, that's a problem for another time. We should focus at these problems one at a time.

You know why Ankama isn't saying "f**k it"? Because they have a responsibility towards their customers. And they're giving it their best trying to fix things. Trying to help improve things. I expect you to respect that.
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Score : 27383

You just hit the little quote button in the upper right hand corner of the post and it will quote everything neatly for you. (I saw your older post but didn't have time to reply before you edited)

In an ideal world sure that would work, but again we need to go back to the realities of this situation. I am sure [Izmar] will never confirm this, but Ankama probably has maybe 5 or 6 people who work full time on combating bots, and they have limited time and resources with which to work. Botters suffer from none of these problems, they will work as long as it takes to get around these barriers and they have unlimited resources with which to work.

Sometimes you can find something that slows them down, but the patches that stop bots for length of time seem to be pretty uncommon and in reality they usually last a few days at best before bots come roaring back bigger and better than before.

Yes you can choose to focus on things one-at-a-time but if you do that the botters simply focus on what you aren't. They will put more energy into phishing on the Ogrines market or whatever else they are doing. Ankama only has so many fingers with which to hold the water back in a leaking dam. And just because they fix something for now (Ogriens for example), there is nothing to say the botters won't come back to in in a week or two and find a new way to break it wide open all over again.

When I said that, it was intended to be taken as a rhetorical statement. If you want to talk about improving things, I would submit that I have freely given countless hours of my time on the forums and the Wiki to make the community a better place, never receiving any kind of recognition or reward for my work.

Rhetorical statements are not supposed to be replied to, as it takes away from the desired effect.

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